Karune answers forums questions!

@Remy, I've debated on your side that the Nydus Worm cannot replace the Overlord's transportation capabilities, they both offer different things to the table.

Overlord cannot get past anti-air, and we all know air units are the most vulnrable units as everything targeted at the air is very strong, its the same scenario trying to sneak an Overlord into a base getting past that anti-air as it would be with a Nydus Worm getting past the tanks, and this would be impossibile now since they have 13 range and 100 damage vs the Nydus Worm, with the burrowing approach you can bypass those tough defense and get into the best position.
Now even if you did get those drops into the base they wouldn't do much as Zerg need to come in numbers for the full effect and drops can fit 8 Zerglings max and every time a Zergling or something else would pop out, tanks and stuff would get them.
With the new changes I don't think Ovi dropping into a base will be as useful as it used to be due to things like Tanks, Vikings, Immortals etc.

The current Overlord cannot transport and could never have hope too so I won't address this, but I will address the Overseer transportation.

Overseer transportation pros:
Travels in the air so it isn't limited to any paths.
Fast and has a long sight range meaning you can do more precise drops such as Lurkers in the mineral line.
Allows immediate transportation so you can respond to a situation quickly.
Be can used well with Banelings and Roaches for some excellent micro possibilities
Overseer transportation cons:
Needs to be upgraded from an Overlord meaning they would suck up your minerals to get enough for a decent drop.
Easy target for any unit with an air attack, highly susceptable to Anti-air Turrets, Vikings, Thor.
Would get detected by Terrans suberb detection range meaning they would be easier to intercept.
Not as readily available as Overlord transports were in Sc1.

To make it effective you'd need to get rid of the Overseer and give the Overlord its upgrades back.

Nydus Worm pros:
Extremely tactical and can be used in many situations as we've highlighted.
Much more durable than an Overlord/seer.
Can further reinforce once all units have been unloaded as it now acts as a Nydus Canal.
Gets Zerg units around the map in an inconspicuous manner, if it isn't seen.
If one Worm dies and another is around the units won't be lost.
Instantly reuseable.
Nydus worm cons:
Easy target for Sieged tanks meaning it could be impossible to get them into a Terran base.
Terran's long detection spots them meaning they will anticipate your advance, then fortify any weak spots before you even had a chance to catch them off-guard.
Not very fast.
Costs more than an Overlord and takes up supply count when producing multiple Worms.

Now if the Nydus Worm burrowed around meaning its cloaked it would be able to ambush units, scout without being seen, go straight thru an opposing army and unburrow behind them to flank, evade those tanks, more tactical use, balanced by cost and supply, etc.

All in all they are both different transportation methods, Zerg never really beniftted much from drops unless they were tech rushed anyway and even so they didn't do the most damage compared to a Tank or Reaver drop.

Do the Zerg really need the Overlord/seer transportation?
I never used it in Sc1 and rarely saw it in games, but with added units like Banelings and Roaches it will be very nice to micro so I think Zerg should get both, the cloaked Nydus Worm and Overlord/seer transportation, it would be imbalanced with both since its balanced with other aspects of the Terran and Protoss.
So yea, give us the cloaked Nydus Worm and Ovi transportation.

 

I think it was Psionicz who said that being able to see Nydus Worms is bad, I agree. I does take the element of surprise away and might as well just put overlord's back as transports.

I think that claoked enemies still have a disadvantage against the Baneling because you can just put the Baneling next to the cloaked unit and have another unit kill it, which still does splash, therefore killing the cloaked unit.

WTF 255 UNIT SELECTION?ZOMG. Heck, I never liked it when I could only control 12 units in SC1 but 255 is just too much and it's unfair because now, there is no micro with big groups.

 

First of all, why would I want Ovie transport without any speed upgrades? I've always been against Overseer design from the start, and for Ovie transports to work, we would have to go back to the "all Overlords are unit transports" concept. Whether Ovies gain detection capabilities by individually evolving into Seers is an entirely different matter.

AA really isn't much of a concern. Any situation where Turrets or Cannons are around to attack air transports are situations where cloaking wouldn't even matter anyway, as they are static detectors. It might be hard to detect cloaked Nydus Worms in open areas, but that's not much different from it being hard to spot air transport on the move. Once you get closer to enemy bases however, a cloaked Nydus Worm isn't any better than air dropping with Ovies, if not worse.

Also, all dedicated non-tower anti-air is tier 3, but anti-ground is available even at tier 1 and much more prevalent throughout the entire game. But even where there is significant AA around, you can still ensure drop success with Ovies by sending a good number of decoys along. You can't really say the same for Nydus Worms. In my opinion, where it really counts, cloaking wouldn't even make a difference most of the time.

Another issue is Zerg's lack of cliff hopping units. Other than just going Mutas, Zerg would need to make up for this by using unit transports. But think about it for just a second, why is cliff hopping even good? It's because you get a big boost in mobility, and mobility can sometimes translate into tactical options. If you were to rely on the Nydus Worm, it defeats the purpose by having to repeatedly unburrow and reburrow, which is very time consuming. Also, the Nydus Worm is higher tech, later timing, greater investment, but on the other hand Ovies are always around.

The Nydus Worm's design since day 1 has always been all or nothing. You either successfully unburrow after the few seconds of "scream time" or you have nothing, there is no in between. Dropping with Ovies is much more flexible even in practical application. Take Banelings for example. Dropping with Nydus Worms would get you a good number of Banelings all in one spot. With Ovies however, you can either go with the same and all drop in one place, or you can move the Ovies around and drop Banelings one at a time as if you were bombing from the air. VS a Terran choke, dropping Banelings with Ovies could be very effective, but I doubt you can even pull it off with Nydus Worms.

Mega coolness doesn't always translate into in-game usefulness. Prime example being SC1's Protoss Dark Archon. In my opinion, with or without cloak, the Nydus Worm will serve the same purpose in practice. You would still need to use it with caution, trying to land a safe Canal opening, away from enemy presence. Just because it's "cloak," you can't think of it as anything similar to say, a DT. The "cloak" in the Nydus Worm's case is only how you move from point A to point B, once you unburrow or encounter detection, it means squat. Zerg players are better off knowing that from the start, and having a more practically useful transport method instead.

Just to clarify once more, I'm saying all this based on Ovies getting transport ability via universal upgrade, and that Nydus Worms can still move past terrain such as gaps or walls.

 

Just to clarify, your stance on this is to:
Remove the Nydus Worm and return Overlord transportation?
Leave it as it is and return Overlord transportation?
Or are you telling me your opinionated view on why the Overlord is better at transportation then the Nydus Worm?

As my view is both are difference and both have better uses and I want Overlord/seer transportation, except I'm just defending the Nydus Worm as I think it would work much better with the cloaking than the current Nydus Worm.

Which is why you evade them, with Ovi drop or Nydus. The only difference is that anti-air won't help the enemy in a Nydus attack.

Exactly, that is the point and one of the differences where the Nydus and Overlord will be different in application.
I know you have imagination, just picture the amount of possibilities with using Nydus Worms on open battlefields, the enemy would have no idea what you have or where you are, meaning play is much in your favour and Zerg benifit very much from controling the situation.
This also allows them to be all over the map being able to travel from A to B in secrecy and safety and not to mention fast.

This depends of your knowledge of their base, if you find that weak spot and exploit it with the Nydus Worm you will do far more damage to them than Overlord dropping as some will die, meaning you lose prescious cargo. Zerg do not want to waste their supply limit and do not want to spend time wasting minerals bringing back Overlords just to build more units, that is why Corsair harass was one of the best tactics to beat a Zerg player.
Now on the exploitation part, that is exactly what a Nydus Worm is, an exploiter and the fact they could be anywhere due to cloak means you have a much better chance of exploiting mistakes or duping an enemies tactics since you're basically everwhere and the enemy wouldn't even know.

As stated above, its too risky to use them as decoys in a serious game as the player of equal skill will take advantage and take out the Overlords meaning you have to waste time and minerals to bring more supply count back and that leave you vulnrable for that duration of time as you're still waiting to waste that possible 700 minerals which you lost from your Overlord decoys, not to mention you can't even build units since their no supply count. Its a double edged sword really, the Nydus Worm goes past that and a successful drop is increased with the cloak. As I've said many times, it not being cloaked is an obvious slow moving target with no manouverability as opposed to the quicker Overlord.

Also how much ground defense do you usually find at their main base, players tend to fortify their ramps and choke points, but being Sc2 this will probably change meaning there will be the few defenders, tanks will be the Nydus Worms greatest enemy and with that 13 they will definitly trump most attempts to get them with a Nydus Worm since you'd only need a few at the main locations. Now where the Nydus Worm can't be used there is a slight hope for the cloaked one as the tank won't get enough hits when they finally detected it from the close range meaning you've bypassed their defense even tho being detected, then you bring another Worm from the opposite end of the base and assult that location too as their forces and defense has shifted to the first assult location, with Overlords you wouldn't have the APM to manage your assult party 1 while dropping to a successful location for the assult party 2 and knowing you need as many Overlords to survive as possible due to supply issues, the Nydus Worm now has two choices, further reinforce the assult or to burrow and escape.
Again something the Overlord would find harder as its already damaged from entrance and doesn't have the hitpoints to sit around while you assess whether you should pick your units back up or for the Overlords to retreat, now that notes the fact the Overlord cannot reinforce, only transport.

I agree with you their and that is what makes Overlord/seer transportation useful as opposed to the Nydus Worm's more direct aggressive use.

Thats where they are further distinguished from each other as you have the availability to do difference things.
Using Banelings with the Nydus Worm would eliminate anything in its path and allow you to micro them better as you don't have to worry about the Overlords dropping all of them and you have that constant flow of Banelings meaning you can open up large areas of their base or destroy a large number of units, that is more of a siege approch.
Using the Overlord and Baneling combo means you're limited to their holding capacity yet you have a greater precision while dropping, using them like a bomber. But if their is anti-air around this would be greatly halted as you'd need to waste the set number of banelings on the anti-air meaning less Banelings for your primary targets.
This is one of the reasons I want Overlord/seer transportation as you could do very sexy things using the Banelings as bombs from the air while microing the Overlord/seer.

Yes the Overlord is and should be the primary transportation as I don't believe the Nydus Worm will be used in the way Overlords would.
All in all they are both different, both have flaws and weakness and when used in conjunction with each other you can achieve devestating results just like how Sc1 Zerg were fashioned were every unit would benifit another, such as Mutalisk and Devourer combination or Ultralisk and Zergling combination.
Yet both these units still had different distinction which made them better in other ways than the other, so in a way when used togeter they become that super unit with less of a weakness which should be the point as Zerg are Zerg and unity is their key.

 

Im still in oblivion as to what transport unit is better as they have different strenghts and weaknesses in different situations so i'll let you decide... ( im still rooting for the worms btw )

Knowing that protoss has phase-in/blink/cliffwalk, terrans have dropships and jetpacks,.. is there an increasing need for zerg to have the overlord as a primary transport mode?? if that is so, I want to put on a scenario to have an idea on what would be the possibilities of each transportations pros and cons with dropping... (overlord tier 2 transpo, nydus worm tier 2 or 3 transpo - if a hive is required)

but before you that, first of all I just want you guys to correlate your answers with what units would you load your transpo? Is it always an effective tactic to drop, especially for the zerg who has little surprise nowadays because the usual lurker choice drop has now been in a farther tier than before...

Anyway heres the sitch... "you are a zerg player and will try to drop your units on a terran base with a radar dome, what transporter will you use given that the overlord and nydus worms both have their transporting capability" The terrans are masters of D and now 2 missiles are fired by turrets and thor has flak mechanic dmg... what are the chances anyway to have a successful drop? how will you execute it...

NOTE: I did not consider an overseer being able to transport since I rather have it function as an air support caster for the zerg since they are lacking that unit type (T=nomad P=mamaship Z=overseer???) but still it wont suffice as its skills are entirely boring and unworthy for me IMHO.. why??

* the need to hold position before activating extended vision is a disturbing concept coz focusing the range of vision doesnt require one to stay still, if he desires so he can do that in an instant.. no waiting or so..

* mineral oozing?? im not really sure of that but i can consider these one of its better purposive skills though i find it unnescesarry for such a skill be equipped by an observer-food type unit at all

* overlords from the start are very proficient with their upgrades researched thus no need for extra curricular evolution is needed just to be able to have it function as a detector.. what happened anyway??

 

Nydus Worm isn't an exclusive transport unit, the Overlord is.

Nydus Worm has an extensive tactical availibility and fills in some wekanesses of the Overlord as the Overlord would the Nydus Worm.

I though't my post explained it enough.

But its just the same that Protoss can warp everywhere and still retain transportation with the Phase Prism so why can't the Zerg have both also.
Both of those mechanics pretty much do the same thing but with different methods and applications just as the Nydus Worm, Overlord comparison is.

 

Since you asked Psionicz, my stance is this:

1) I want universal Ovie transport. This is opposed to evolution of individual Overlords. Also, it does not have to tie in with Ovie detection capabilities. Meaning, they can screw with Ovie detection all they want and go with Seers or whatever else, as long as unit transporting with Ovies remain a universal upgrade.

2) I want Nydus Worms. Not wanting to have Nydus Worms is like asking Nydus Canals to be removed for no good reason. Since when has Overlord transports overlapped Nydus Canals?

3) I don't really care if the Nydus Worm has cloak or not, so long as it is fully functional as a Nydus CANAL. I don't perceive any significant difference one way or the other, when considering practical application in actual in-game situations.

 

As i said a few pages back! one would not try to attack with 1 nydus worm.

i think this is fairly balanced. cuz the enemy right, it will surely try to kill the nydus worm before units will come out. but if you use more then one...maybe even a dozen of worms, the enemy base will be pretty much get owned.
Now i know thats going to cost so much money creating so many worms..but seriously on the long run, i think its worth it.

Also, the other races have crazy transport too, warp in, reavers, stalkers, collosus. but you see, they are not invisible aswell...
a person needs to build defences all around.
i agree with freedom. the nydus worm should be underground, and it should give a crack above ground to give the other player a hint that a nydus worm is around.

just think about what nikzad and freedom said in the few last pages.
for me, i think (like Remy) they should have both trasnport of ovies and nydus worms. the ovies trasnport can maybe be late tier 3, just to make it balanced.

But tbh all of us havent played the game yet, so we really dont know how effective the nydus worm is. but We can still speculate =]


As for the new update...the Thor to me is "ZzzZzz" still, but its growing on me now. A tanked up goliath...lol, i guess its pretty useful when you storm the front of the enemy's base.
And the ghost, yeah the drop pods...whatever. From the beginning i knew the ghost had too many abilities, and one if its abilities had to be removed..so im fine with this.

 

I don't understand why they just don't give the Overlord its attributes/abilities through upgrades like before, as the time it took and mineral cost was probably equivilant to making an Overseer anyway, except you could choose which you needed faster to prioritize.
Overlord should just be an overlord. We don't need the Overseer, its a waste of a unit spot.
Just give the Overlord the ability to upgrade any of its abilities with the necessary costs and times. This allows you to respond to situations with the correct upgrade before another, instead of being forced to make an Overseer just to detect, or leave it as a slow vulnrable Overlord throughout the game just to spawn creep.
As late game this would be a hinderence instead of an improvement.
The Overlord needs the following upgrades: Transportation, Speed increase, Sight increase, Spawn creep. That way by the time you've spent minerals and time to research all it will actually benifit you and show improvement instead of being stuck between Overlords and Overseers.

Psi Storms will rape a Thor for four reasons. (see what I did thar?)
1. Too slow to evade
2. Too big to recieve like half damage by moving
3. They hit the Thor before the Thor can reach the High Templars
4. Psi storm isn't deducted by any armor stats

 

i agree all the way on the overlord part.. make it an Uber lord again lol and btw the zerg still needs a second caster on the air which is currently what they dont have now that the hive matriarch is a ground type.. (im not also proposing the queen to fly coz even so, its skills still wont suffice for use in battles)

Psi. storms will definitely bring the thor down which is kind of Ironic (lol ironic = metallic) because naming the thor (thundergod) is too ironic that it will be killed by its own definition ^_^

anyway the terran players are definitely gonna be smart as they wouldnt just bring thors on open ground.. I can see that most of the times its gonna be escorted with Ghosts to snipe down those most threatening casters and as for counters theres also nullifiers to provide a field of cast-disabling lol... its gonna be really tight if this are put on to battle, it will really be up to the microing capacity of the player to conclude who will get the upper hand on these...

 

Immortals alone would easy Thors. I just hope the Thor gets removed now, its mssing up Terran.