Infester Inspector

I would have to disagree, while the infestor is certainly taking shape, nothing we've seen seems as usefull as Dark Swarm, Plague and Consume. Keeping in mind that the Defiler is a higher tier, but i certainly would not call it an upgrade.

 

Imo they should remove Spawn Infested Marines and replace it with something else, maybe consume. If consume would be imba, the energy the Infest?r gets from it could be changed.

 

Yeah, I thought spawn infested marines was a placeholder ability, I'm suprised it's stayed this long.

 

I don't see how you can simply say that the Infester's abilities are less useful than the Defilers. Firstly, Disease has just been balanced. They've kept it exactly the same, but have toyed with the numbers. That's balance. Secondly, I fail to see how Neural Parasite is useless, or even so undeniably less useful than Dark Swarm, regardless of how incompatible Dark Swarm may be in StarCraft2. For example, the third Battle Report. The Zerg player would have simply been steam-rolled if not for Neural Parasite. Lastly, Spawn Infested Marines. I think most people are confusing lore with balance here. While you may think Infested Marines suck from a lore point of view, I fail to see how instantly spawning five buffed Marines is so useless. Second lastly, there's still the Infestor's ability to Burrow, which basically means it's permanently Cloaked.

 

Spawn Infested Marines sucking lorewise is enough to make the ability stupid. If they changed the Marines to Broodlings that can shoot air I would accept the ability.

 

Yes, but you're still confusing lore with balance. Either that, or you're just so stubborn to accept about Zerg being able to spawn units that you're consciously ignoring the fact that it is a useful ability.

Believe it or not, names, skins and model's aren't what make an ability useful.

 

I didn't say that it's not useful. I said that it's stupid if it spawns marines.

 

So what makes the Infester so useless?

 

I don't think that I ever called it useless.

 

Touche. I guess I'll have to wait until overmind gets back.

Overall, I don't think there's really any validity in the comparative powers of the Defiler and Infester. First and foremost, the majority of their abilities would either be useless or overpowered in the context of the other game, but other than that, despite both being the Zerg Ground spellcaster and being lucky enough to share Disease, they're two very different units. They're at different tiers and have different purposes.

 

I like the Infestor the way it is now, except for the Spawn Infested Terrans. Even if it is really a useful ability, it simply does not make sense. I don't share the view that "gameplay and balance > comon sense"
I hope they come up with something more plausible that this...

 

First of, I'm not saying that the Infestor is useless, I'm not it's underpowered I'm just calling you out on it being an upgrade. Dark Swarm was extremely useful for assaults, it saves a significant amount of units and is really the game-ending ability in extended matches, especially at the point when resources, and thus units, are at a premium. I agree it may be a bit overpowered in regards to banelings in starcraft 2, but 'upgrade' doesn't compensate for balance. Plague, well regardless of balance, lowered stats = downgrade. Consume was insubmountable for a spellcaster and I don't think I have to argue that. As far the Infestor goes, I see it more of replacement for the queen than defiler in a way, it has enhanced mobility and a 'sniping' spell. It will definitely have it's uses, but I certainly wouldn't say it is an upgrade on the Defiler, I wouldn't even have the two in the same category.

Specifically in regards to spawn infested marines, it could certainly be useful, but seems too uninspired and similar to the Raven's span unit abilities, honestly I think the Infestor should be given some kind of buff to replace it.

 

@ marcus. The same could be said about Lurkers, Mutalisks, and a lot of other Zerg units in general. Overall, as I said, it's really not that much of a step up from what the Zerg have already. They already have the ability to produce bullet-proof chitin, units like the Hydralisk have thousand of in-built muscular guns in their forehead, and units like the Mutalisk, Corrupter and Brood Lord have the ability of carrying a seemingly infinite number of either eggs or other organisms inside them.

Interestingly enough, I recently learnt that a type of gum is able to take up something like silicon crystals or something into their system in order to coat their leaves with it, stopping them from freezing in the Snowy Mountains, and seeing as units in game are able to spontaneously generate elements and compounds for its own use and purposes, such as the Baneling, I don't see how the same can't apply to carbon and iron, especially when they're such naturally occuring elements anyway.

Now I'm not saying that it makes sense for it to happen, but in theory it could make a heck of a lot more sense than most of the other Zerg units out there.

@ overmind. I've already said that the Zerg have new ways of dealing with such attacks, to the point of no longer requiring a shield to protect them. Firstly, they have the Roach. Not only is its health considerably higher than that of the average Zerg, but its regeneration increases its survivability ten-fold. Secondly, as a whole, Zerg are more durable in general than in StarCraft1, with most of the Zerg units' health having been increased , and none having been decreased. Thirdly, there's the Brood Lord, which not only has had its health increased dramatically, but it can also literally create a screen of Broodlings in a relatively short time, which adds to the Zerg army as well as providing a cover for the rest of it. There's the Ultralisk, which, in case it didn't have enough health in StarCraft1, has had it increased by fifty percent, as well as much more useful attack. Swarms are no longer as precious, either, due to the Queen's new ability to Spawn Larvae, meaning it's basically a mobile Hatchery which lets you rebuild your swarm in no time.

Lastly, and definitely most importantly, so much so that I'm making this its own paragraph, pathing. Pathing has been improved dramatically in StarCraft2. Zerg units will actually swarm now, without marching in, in the thousands, in a single file formation. There's no need to protect the Zerg swarm from ranged fire if they're no longer vulnerable to it. Stuff can actually be overwhelmed now, instead of having a trickle of oncoming units slowly getting the better of it.

So again, there's no need to protect the Zerg from ranged fire if they're no longer vulnerable to it. Yes, it may have been removed from the Defiler/Infester, but if it's already been made up for in other fields, there's no need for it to have it, and it's definitely not a downgrade.

As for Disease, no. You can't simply disregard balance if the only thing that's happened is the stats being changed. If the High Templar's Psionic Storm dealt less damage than in StarCraft1, which it actually doesn't any more, but everything else was the same, would that be a downgrade? Of course not. It would be balance. To give a similar scenario, if a unit's stats are tweaked in a patch, regardless of whether it's for better or worse, has that unit been upgraded or downgraded? You may say that technically, seeing as the unit isn't as strong as before, it's a downgrade, but if that's the case then not only has it simply been done for balancing purposes, but that happens with every single unit, so saying whether it's been upgraded or downgraded is irrelevant, because it all pertains to balance. So yes, I'll give you that. Disease statistically does less damage than in StarCraft1. However, seeing as they are both balanced within the context of their own individual games, it has not been made stronger or weaker. It has, however, been made to be easier to use, with Burrowed movement.

Consume may have been useful, but the exact same thing could be said for any ability. Having Consume does take up the place of having another ability however, so it does come at a significant cost. In my opinion, I'd actually rather have another ability. I'm not using that as proof or evidence for it being better, I'm just saying I'm not the one to spam abilities, especially when most of its abilities don't stack, which is, however, another reason for its removal, as, like Dark Swarm, it's not as well suited to the Infester, and Zerg in StarCraft2.

Overall, I fail to see how such abilities are required to make a return in order for the Zerg, or any team, to be balanced. I mean, if there was no StarCraft1, would you still think Zerg need a more powerful Disease, an ability that grants them immunity to ranged attacks, or another ability to instantly recover its own Energy for twenty five minerals, or, thinking about it, it would be two times the amount for none of the cost in StarCraft2, granted you had a single Brood Lord.

Oh, and back onto Dark Swarm, Zerg can instantly heal their tanks now, too, and with Overseers, being units that should be present anyway.

 

well id just like to add something. dark swarm was mainly used on zerglings, lurkers and ultras. sometime they were used on other units but not nearly as much as these 3 units. these 3 units were most susceptible to atk from the enemy. zergs with there extremly low HP, ultras being the tanks have the entire army focusing on just the ultras making them die abit faster then they should and for there expensive cost you dont want that to happen, and lurkers which basically speaks for itself.

now in SC2 the ultras got a hella big HP boost so darkwarm would probably just make it an unstoppable God monster. but zerglings and lurkers are still pretty susceptible to atks. zerglings wont be nearly as usefull late game without darkswarm there to protect them like they were in SC1 and it will be alot harder to do lurker pushes on someones base without darkswarm there to protect them.

if dark swarm was in SC2 then it will still be used on the same units as in SC1. not the newer units your talking about like the roach because first of all there a ranged atk unit. that means if u put darkswarm over them they will get raped by zelots pretty fast while under the darkswarm. same goes for the brood lord. the brood lord is basically a "evolution" of the Guardian in SC1 and how many ppl used swarm to protect guardians? next to no one because they did not need it.

so yes, alot of zerg units dont need darkswarm in SC2 but the same exact thing can be said in SC1. Darkswarm was used to protect the weaker units like lings and the key important/extremely expensive units like ultras and lurkers. it was not used to protect units that were fully capable like hydras/guardians/devs/etc. i dont see how this would change in SC2 . if it was in SC2 ppl will use darkswarm on the same iconic units that they were use on in SC1. and that is zerglings/lurkers (and of course the newer banglings).

 

Ok, a couple of things I noticed about that.

Firstly, the units you said do need Dark Swarm. With the Zerglings, as I said before, both pathing and production capabilities have been improved for Zerg in StarCraft2, and now that I think of it, selection as well. That means that not only can Zerg produce Zergling swarms faster and more often, but when they do attack with them, they'll all attack at once. There's no more of this single file crap. Even just with improved pathing, Cracklings would be deadly, but they can be produced faster, and a lot more can be selected at once. I don't know the precise number, but two hundred and fifty five comes to mind for some reason. Regardless, it's a lot more than the twelve in StarCraft1. Overall, that means not only are they not marching in single file, but there's no longer a delay between sending in all the individual groups. Zerglings may not have received any specific upgrades themselves, but the natural mechanics of StarCraft2 benefit them more than any other unit in the game, and by a great deal, as well. That said, simply massing Zerglings and only Zerglings should not be a viable tactic, and fortunately, the way things look, it isn't.

As for Lurkers, their range has been buffed dramatically in StarCraft2, with an increase of fifty percent. Not only do they out-range most static defences now, Siege Tanks obviously excluded, but it means that they can cover themselves from practically all other attacks when carrying out a Lurker push.

Now, with the units who don't require Dark Swarm, just because a unit doesn't need Dark Swarm, not that Zerglings or Lurkers physically depend on them or anything, but just for the sake of argument, just because a unit doesn't need Dark Swarm, it doesn't mean that it won't use Dark Swarm. You said yourself that the Ultralisk does not need Dark Swarm, and even said that with Dark Swarm it would be an unstoppable death god, but just because it doesn't need it, why wouldn't people use it with them?

With the Roach, you're absolutely right. Dark Swarm doesn't strictly work with Roaches, as they are ranged units themselves, however, I will say that it's unlikely Dark Swarm will be used against Protoss particularly when you're fighting Zealots at the time. If it is used though, which would predominantly be against Terran, it would still give the Roaches time to regenerate to full. Though having said that, there's always Burrow, still.

Then there's still the Baneling. Taking these out in close combat is obviously out of the question, so unless Terran have so many Siege Tanks that the splash damage is enough alone to take out all the Banelings, it's overpowered.

With the Ultralisk again, with its new stats in StarCraft2 and the ability to be covered by a Dark Swarm, unless players will be able to evacuate their main base in seconds, then it'll be extremely overpowered.

Again, just because units don't need it, it doesn't mean they won't make use of it. Banelings obviously wouldn't've used it in StarCraft1, but that doesn't stop them from exploiting it if it were to be in StarCraft2. Ultralisks no longer need it in StarCraft2, but that still doesn't stop people from using it on them anyway, in which case it'll be extremely overpowered.

With what I said about Brood Lords, I didn't say that Dark Swarm would be used with them, I was saying that they create a screen themselves. With all the Broodlings Swarming on the ground, opposing fire would automatically be diverted to begin with, as well as focusing fire on some other the other smaller units, such as Roaches and Banelings becoming more difficult.

 

Dark Swarm is not only useful for melee units. It can be used over a pack of Hydralisks to defend them against air units, and to allow them to take on large groups of Carriers or Battlecruisers without casualties. Dark Swarm doesn't defend structures, so ranged units can pound away at enemy fortifications without having to deal with the brunt of enemy defenses. The main catch in all this is that it is only safe while the enemy doesn't have melee units under the swarm with them.

In SC2, this would extend to the new units as well- Roaches could hide under a Swarm to snipe buildings, Banelings could use it to push to the front lines. Broodlings would live their full lifespan, overwhelming the enemy further. Queens and Hydralisks could engage air units without getting in trouble.

If the ability were implemented in SC2, it would be a lot nastier than it was in SC1, and would almost certainly require a serious nerf.

 

Yea it would only last like 15 seconds or less and would only block half the damge. But still would have it's uses.

 

i just noticed spore cloud which seems to be darkswarms replacement. if this limits the sight range of units to say 1 then that can actually be just as good if not better then darkswarm. especialy against units like zelots against roaches/hydras or marines against roaches. it also can cripple siege tanks REAL bad if thats the case. would make it alot easier for zerglings or banelings to tear apart siege tanks with a limited sight range of siege tanks.

 

Except Spore Cloud is instantly negated by any Air unit, including the Colossus, unlike Dark Swarm, which was a counter to any Air unit.

 

but that would put a practical limit on how often and if it's used. I think that's one thing blizz wants to add to SC2 a little pic and choosing and choices that will determin the out come of the game.