Ideas for new Zerg Mechanics. (Post your theories and ideas)

Thanks for your kind word Star-Crap, but I live on the East Coast and I have a wife and a kid.  And besides, there are surely tons more people out there with way better ideas than me.

But just to make it clear, Blizzard is free to take any of my ideas if they'd like.  Take it for all I care, it doesn't do me any good.  I think everyone who posted their ideas here feel the same way.  So I don't know why Blizzard would hire anyone when they can just snatch the ideas for free LOL.

@ Joneagle_X, I personally dislike automation in general.  I've always liked micro having an impact, and I don't like too many things that dumb it down and hand it over to the AI.  Do a search on "gambit" and you'll see what I mean.

An unupgraded hydra is actually slower than a drone, but drone speed is fine, that's slow enough.  I think larva cap comes down to balancing things on a sliding scale between Zerg Turtle's supply cost and maximum number of larvae producible at one time.  I was thinking more along the lines of 3~4 food and 3 larva, but that is really not definitive in any way.  It is merely an idea, the details would require actual testing.

EDIT: I don't remember how much detail regarding the Zerg Turtle that I had in mind I have actually posted, so a quick recap. Large tier 3 ground unit that's 3~4 food, relatively slow as to be not impossible to target and hunt down. Has a "mini-habitat" on its back with creep and all(because larvae die outside of creep), and constantly produces larvae up to a max of 3 at about the same rate as an unupgraded hatchery(not lair/hive larva production rate). When the larvae are evolved into units, the eggs just drop to the ground(eggs and cacoons don't require creep and it would be akward for ground units to crawl off the back of the Zerg Turtle after finish building). The Zerg Turtle itself has no attack, and definitely does not have ultralisk-like stats for it to be able to serve as a tank.

 

I didn't intend for the entire expansion to run itself. Just the minerals and a couple creep buildings. So you could basically send two drones instead of one, plop down a hatchery, start 3 drones, then start a cerebrate and leave it. If you came back 5 minutes later there would be about 10-12 mining drones and two creep colonies for you to do with as you please. I just thought this might be a nice addition to your Genetic Index idea as it helps with basic base defense.

I just think this game is going to be insanely fast paced and it will be difficult to watch all the expansions while at the same time controlling Zerg at the speed necessary to counter these new Terran and Protoss units. The new Zerg units may change my mind completely about the subject.

I like the units dropping off to the ground, but I think giving the Turtle pretty much the same capacity as a Hatchery to make units, especially if it can produce them while moving is a little imba.

EDIT: Btw, I had pretty much the same image in my head. I was thinking a really ugly a** turtle with the shell cut off at the top to make a bowl in which sat Creep and a few larvae.

 

The balancing factor lies in the fact that the Zerg Turtle itself takes up FOOD, and relatively high as far as Zerg goes.

A Zerg player would have to balance out the number of Zerg Turtles carefully as it means you have that much less actual combat units. Having just one would hardly make a difference as 3 larvae isn't much for Zerg. And after producing the first batch, you would be sitting on one larva produced at a time, you only have a full 3 every once in a while. But if you get too many Zerg Turtles, and in turn, too little actual combat units, your forces would be overwhelmed and the replacement units produced by the Zerg Turtles would be in an even worse position.

Did I really exclude this many things from my Zerg Turtle idea? I usually post pretty long. Wait a minute...

I dislike automation, that's just me. I think every little aspect, including when and how many drones to produce at an expansion, what the drones to be used for in what order, or creep colony placement should all be decided by the player. You really should take a look at the GAMBIT threads, if they're still around.

 

Now that's just being humble. If it was up to me to rate, i'd guess you are in the top 30 of thinking up awesome ideas. If that feels to awesome, i'd guess you can be in the top 100 list, but the fact is there: You have freggin awesome ideas. Usually people who post ideas just want to add imba pwnzor-things to their race/class/prestige class/job/w/e/may/seem/logical/enough so that they can own everyone without a drop of sweat.

Ok, enough of my ass-kissing, i think the Turtle is in fact a good addition to the Zerg (might've already said this, but the thread is getting long and i am kinda not in the mood to read it all through for one measly post) since it gives mobility (albeit slow) to the Zerg. That's also what i wanted to suggest with the 2nd idea in my last post, further mobility and speed, emphasize the fast, numerous theme of the Zerg as well as their parasitic nature.

 

well the turtle being able to produce units while moving would be the same as the starbase wouldnt it?

 

Not really, since the Turtle doesn't actually create units, rather spawn Larvae on it's back and carrying them around. If it either:
a) had actually created the units.
b) had created larvae that can morph into moving eggs.
Then the two concepts would have been similiar.

Besides, i think the Starbase is a ridiculous concept. What is it's purpose, really? Aside from aerial blockades around a base. I bet they introduced it solely as a standard building because it is going to have some kind of role in the campaign.

 

I'm still trying to figure out if my idea of the Zerg Creep Enhancer building was too Imba or not. Although if you could only have a limited supply of them it would be interesting concept. Still, back to the Turtle. I love the concept of it. No need imo to say anything to improve it or imba it. :thumbup:

 

SirBaron, thank you for your kind words, but I'm not worthy.

I have given some more thought to the creep colony evolution that increases the creep radius and creep generation rate, I meant to post it before but I keep forgetting. I think that's the one you're referring to ShdwyTemplar. I'll borrow what you have called it.

The Creep Enhancer Colony I think is fine by itself, but in conjunction with the rest of the creep rush ideas(overlord spreading creep) it would be imba. The reason is because there would be no way for non-Zerg players to stop the gradual advancement of sunkens. Usually if you ever get hit with a cannon rush, the first thing you do is to lay down some of your own static-D as far up as you can to draw a line and secure your perimeter. Because static-D all have the same range of 7, you can't really force your way in if there are enemy defensive structures in place. But with the Creep Enhancer Colony, you spread creep very quickly over a radius greater than that of a sunken's attack range, so any non-Zerg player would have no chance of building any towers in response to the rush unless they were already there.

I'm really loving the Genetic Code Index idea the more I think about it. Now I want it to be in the game really bad. I wish I didn't think of it and Blizzard did instead, then at least there would be a chance for it to be in the game. Come steal our ideas Blizzard, please do it. Just register and PM me saying "we're snatching your idea, but don't tell anyone" and I'll keep my mouth shut for as long as needed. Who am I kidding... :upset:

 

you can't simply multiply those numbers directly to get the "big zergling" stats and compare it to the ultralisk like that. because if there's a unit X that's exactly twice as strong as Y in every single way (except they have same attack rate), then one X is generally better than two Y's. say we have 2 teams, team 1 has one X and team 2 contains two Y's, both teams cost the same, have the same total hp and same damage output, then team one is better because

1. X will only die when all of it's hp are gone where where as the Y's die individually, thus creating a period where the total damage output of team 2 is halved.

2. every time X attack it will do full damage of team1 and any armor is only applied once, when one of the Y's attack you are only dealing half of team 2's maximum damage potential, the other Y might be stuck behind something and not attacking. any armor is also applied multiply times.

3. by not losing any units team 1 enable you to leave a battle with no losses, which is harder to achieve with team 2, also not losing any unit enable you to sustain a full powered assault for longer which might be the difference between an attack a failusre or a success, this is also related to point 1.

4. by concentrating all of the hp on one unit, team 1 has high hp threshold to ensure it does it's job under heavy fire. in the same circumstances team 2 might lose half it's firepower before it can even engage. (think mass zergling against mass tanks where zerglings can't even get close to do any damage no matter how many you have)

although one X is better than two Y's (when X=2Y) the difference is not that great. however as the number of Y's increases, all of the above advantages that one powerful X have over multiple weak Y's are amplified. The difference in power between one X and 8 Y's (when X=8Y) is immense,against a comparatively equal strength army, (e.g. 2 zealots or 6 marines) the relevance of the above 4 points are greatly increased

1. it will take a while before the ultra dies, and as long as it's alive, it'll be doing maximum damage. where as zerglings dies like flys, even against a small army. it won't be long before 2 or 3 of the 8 zerglings die, thus reducing damage output for the rest of the battle.

2. every time ultra attack, it's doing maximum damage, but the zerglings can't all attack as soon as the first one engage and it is hard for them to attack the same target, thus not focusing fire effectively. also any armor will reduce the zerglings' total damage much more than the ultra's damage.

3. if you manage to win the battle then you have lost nothing, yes your ultra is damaged but if enemies have no more defenders at that outpost then it doesn't matter, you have free to wreak havoc with the same maximum damage potential you started with. also although the we know ultra can't be healed quickly unless you have a terran ally with medic, the big X might be a BC or carrier in another situation. so after surviving the battle they can be repaired/shield regenerated quickly. if the zerglings managed to when, there won't be more than 1 or 2 of them left so there isn't much more damage you can do.

4. zerglings against mass seige tanks is suicide, the ultras might not fare much better depending on the number of tanks but at least they will do some damage. also much more tanks is required before ultras become ineffective.

how i'm not trying to argue that the ultra is a great unit, i'm just saying if there were a "big zergling" that cost 200 minerals and have 280hp with damage of 40 and cool down of 6 then it will be totally imba

 

something i would like to see is kinda like the protoss dark archon mind control. The ability would be like infest or something it would take control of any unit make them look cool and give them special abillitys like an infested marine would have its own look and ablility that would be awesome oh and by the way what does imba mean?

xD

 

@ BnechbReaker: The direct conversion of stats on zergling vs ultra was only meant for the purpose of amusement. There is no way you can actually carry and multiply stats directly in actual game balance, because there are many other factors involved. And the reality is, while ultras are obviously better tanks due to a much higher HP pool because that is their sole purpose after all, ultras have pathetic damage output compared to lings of equal food.

In actuality, smaller units always have better overall damage output because they are easier to kill individually, and the game is balanced overall. Although on the theoretical basis that stats are converted directly, a pool of stats in a single unit might be superior, it isn't always that cut-and-dry as there are numerous other factors. For one, the much longer cooldown and the need to have all the required resources available in one lump sum payment will be a hugely limiting factor, you can't get the unit early on or certainly pointless to get in a pinch for instance. And for those reasons partially, the large X unit will be much higher on the tech tree, where as the simple and individually weak Y units can be utilized throughout the entire game from tier 1 to tier 3.

There are also other factors, but most important thing is that every game is dynamic and complex, nothing is a straight math equation that 1 X will always beat 8 Ys becuase no one will play a game with just 1 X or 8 Y units. Unit composition on the battlefield and various elements will always be different.

Let me give you yet another example why the X isn't the default winner by default. If we're talking about groups of Xs and groups of Ys, charging into heavy enemy fire that are extremely high damage single hits, much more damage will be wasted on Y units, where as the Xs will take full damage unitl only the last hit that kills them. Even though individually the Ys have a smaller HP pool, because the incoming fire are so high in damage per hit, the Y units can actually soak more damage in the end.

I still have some more. 8 Ys obviously have better micro potential vs 1 X because you can rotate out the ones being hit. And just like the above paragraph, X unit's high damage per hit vs Y unit's low HP will result in wasted damage on the killing blows on average. But the smaller Y units will actually be doing full damage until the very last hit that goes into killing the X unit. However, this is only true if the Ys are not always one-shotted.

You should check out my Units That Sucked thread, I went over ultras and other Zerg units with a fairly detailed analysis, although while only pertaining to the main topic, whether directly or indirectly.

 

i get what you are saying here, they are basically damage wasted by over-kills when being attacked and when attacking. they do give Y's an advantage. although these advantages are not as great as the advantages X's has over Y's.

 

It can also replenish the energy of aerial units at the cost of it's own, so a battle cruiser could fire a yamato gun a second time.

 

@ BnechbReaker:  I'm just pointing out that there are other aspects to the equation.  All of the above analysis and discussion, albeit very interesting, are entirely theoretical and really has no bearing on actual game design and balance.

But me personally, I'm an analytical freak, I like to analyze everything.  So at least for me personally, it was an interesting and thought provoking discussion.

 

Well my ideas on the starbase are as followed . why I mean who is really going to use it its a silly concept. air units are already faster maybe if you want to produce more BC right on the front lines when 1 is destroyed so you don't have to wait but it will cross the map faster than a zealot will any way.

 

I actually think that the Starbase concept is going to be pretty unique. I'm sure those pro-gamers will bring it to good use that all of us can't think of at the moment. The biggest use I can think of is to replenish mana. That combined with BattleCruisers and Nomads is going to be a very deadly combo late games.

 

I know I'm shuddering at the thought of a flying preschool fortress (the Nomad).

I think you guys lost me in the Ultralisk argument. The ultra is meant to be a damage absorber, and has insane armor. That is why it costs gas. It's not really meant to replace the Zergling so much as give them the ability to reach the enemy by bulling through defenses too effective for the Zerglings to break without serious armor. That's why the major Tier 3 strategy for Zerg is to amass minerals and pump never-ending numbers of lings/ultras.

Remy, I understand your hesitation toward the automation of the Zerg expansions. I said when I first introduced my theory for the Cerebrate was that IF YOU USED IT AT ALL, that was how it should be used. I was basing my suggestion on the fact that Zerg is the most micro/macro intensive race. They have to counter the other races by being quick and paying attention to the battlefield at all times.

Therefore, in this faster-paced game, it may be too much for Zerg players to handle everything at once. In order to even the playing field with the need for an even more massive army in SC2, it might be smart to have automated expansions once they're established. Plus, you could just make the Cerebrate unit/ability very expensive. Probably around 400 minerals, plus the 300 for your hatchery. That would make an automated expansion cost 700 minerals, plus some gas if you wanted to add that.

Your turtle idea has grown on me. I didn't think of the food equation, but wouldn't that mean it would need to take up 6 food to balance out its abilities? Plus, I think Blizzard will view this unit as a "caster" and decrease they chance they'll give us one at Tier 2. And trust me, I WANT THAT CASTER!

 

Despite the fact that Blizzard has more to go on Zerg, I somehow doubt that Blizzard is reading this thread for ideas. But a support unit that doesn't have any casted spells or even provide any kind of direct support, I don't think can really be classified as a caster unit.

For Zerg, I really want a tier 2 caster, a multi-tiered defiler equivalent starting at tier 2, AND at least one other caster unit. I don't think having less casters is really the answer to making Zerg unique and balanced with a notably inferior spell capability, and certainly not just 1 caster vs other races' 3. I think the real way to do that is not giving Zerg less casters, but giving Zerg a few casters with spells that are less devastating directly.

 

I think Blizzard's rationale was that the Zerg take massive losses anyway, so it doesn't really matter that the other races had such powerful spells against them.

It is true that Zerg doesn't really need such AoE spells to win because they already have the numbers, but we do need more spells to help overcome the imbalance of defensive players with such terrifying spells.

If you remember after the original release of SC1 Psionic Storm was insanely powerful. They ended up limiting its time down to a shorter increment which dealt less damage around the perimeter and allowed SOME time for a unit to escape.

They completely dismissed the idea that Zerg needed either defense against spells or spells of their own, really. They just assumed they could take the losses.

 

We don't need the most powerful, devastating, flashy, damaging, or just uber in some way kind of spells. But hell , can we at least have some spell options?

Zerg better have some damn more spell and caster options in SC2.