How would you beat terran if you didnt have lurkers?

I disagree. If you are dealing with a low amount of units, then the Medics heal too fast for the Hydras to do much, you're right. But as soon as you've got plenty of numbers, the focus-fire kills a marine instantly, ignoring the medics nearby.

In both well microed groups case, the Hydras will loose if the enemy lowers down the Hydras numbers enough before the last Marine is killed. As long as Hydras are in huge numbers, medics can't save Marines. Counting the range upgrade of course (without which the hydras can't focus on same marine and kill on sight).

I do believe that Ych9's and your's strategies do work like that. I'll describe what I do:

-send off a few zerglings to harass the enemy. By the time the Zerglings find the Terran base (giving me an advantage in terms of planning), the Terran only has a few marines, and I can kill one before loosing my 2 zerglings.

-Upon finishing my Hydralisk den, I already have a a Sunken colony set up to help me in case the enemy tries to attack sooner than expected. And I start pumping Hydras.

-When reaching the amount of 24 Hydras (yes, it was risky waiting at first, but by trial and error I found out to be worthy), I send them to the Terran base while the range upgrade is being researched.

-Marines, as Ych9 pointed out, move slowly, so I'll meet them closer to my base first. The overwhelming number overcomes the Medics' restoration capabilities, and I'm victorious.

-It's easier for the Zerg to replace dead units than Terrans, and I get back the amount of Hydras I lost sooner. Much sooner actually, since I was victorious and they lost every unit.

-When I reach the terran base (faster than they reach mine, specially having the location knowledge), they at most have another group alike the latter I defeated, and the outcome is the same. The remaining Hydras kill workers and whatever is spawn from barracks. Victory, sometimes postponed by runaway SCVs.

So this way, Terrans do need bunkers to defend against Zergs too. Marines and Medics are a good alternative to staying alive on the field, and against melee units with a good micro. But I disagree that M&M can walk over Zergs. 24 Hydras focused and with range upgrade can beat them. Since Hatchery can almost build 3 Hydras at a time, that's feasible.

There are alternatives when Terran will wait till they have more units, and wait inside base. But the Zerg can then wait and build up to an even higher number as well. Medics only work when the damage taken is smaller than the unit's max.HP.


EDIT: People sometimes think that Medics will not work if they spread the damage. It works the opposite for me: FF stops medics by killing the units on sight. And not the Medics, since they're harder to kill.

 

a easy way for the zerg to beat the MM combo is either banelings become very effective in their aoe attack or at least survive long enough to deal it. Then again.. if u nerf medic's healing rate then most of the MM's power will go away.

 

Well, on account on what I've just posted, I think M&Ms should remain as they are: a way to fighting Protosses on the field.

1- Medics are tougher than Marines, and can heal each other. Marines can be healed fast enough when the dmg is spread.
2- Zealots can only do spread damage: no focus fire for melee units.
3- Medics work great with shields, making these confrontations even better for the Terrans.
4- Stalkers do extra damage on armored units, so they're not a better option vs. them, doing less damage than Zealots would.

This is definitively a vs. Protoss choice of units.

EDIT: And Zealots are tough enough already, imho.

 

@Overling
You defeated the opponent with 24 hydras? You sure he isn't just another noob terran player?

 

Ok, pay attention: I defeated the M&Ms group with a group of 24 Hydras!

That was not the total amount of units I made.

Since the Hydras are done in almost three at a time, the rival group was of 12 marines and 2-3 medics (don't remember so well). They were the groups assembled in an early game time. If you stack 24 Hydras at a time, and focus-fire them at each marine, medics won't make a difference. You'll kill all 12 stim-packed marines before your Hydra numbers are too low to compete with medic's healing.

After battle, you have to regroup and get back to 24. Otherwise the next group of M&Ms will own you.

And if by any random mistakes you're left with a lo amount of Hydras, don't insist: run home and get your numbers back up.

 

Stacking is cheating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, hydras should not be the answer to banelings. I have a feeling lurkers will be back. It's an advanced strain of hydralisk, can't be discarded. Plus, lurkers make good counters against reapers.

 

@Overling: you army of 24 hydras cost 1800min/600gas, you enemies army cost 800min/100gas... (assuming 12 marines and 4 medics) no wonder you won : if he had 16 marines 8 medics (1200min/200gas, still much cheaper than your army) you'd have definitely lost.

there's no point arguing against one of the most well known match ups in starcraft: m&m >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hydra. it owns hydra so bad it's not even funny...

 

dark swarm pwns...but i'd do a nice mix of baneling, zergling and hydra

 

The most effective counter is Lurkers, hands down. There is no option for Zerg to counter M&M before Tier 3 directly without the use of Lurkers. Everything else is either drawing the opponent to a beneficial position or overwhelming them with numbers.

It's tough to do.

 

actually no, the best is dark swarm. you pick the position, and bring in 3 zerglings and that's all you really need. this point really is nonsensicle, since if you have gone all straight to dark swarm you would have gone guardian and that would have done it also. and if anyone argues that there isn't enough time to get guardians and dark swarm, then you have no clue what quick guardian is all about. 3 guardians and a few lings can do the job imo.

 

Dark swarm is really only good vs tanks.

Marines and medics move out fast enough, and you irradiate the defilers, once they are dead turn around and procede to kill the zerg.

Tanks > lurkers

Lurkers > marines

Zerglings + hydras > tanks

marines > zerglings + hydras.

Its a matter of who plays it better.

 

ok so i skipped everything after the first page...

but honestly, against terran I like to rush them... and it works if they aren't really good
then if they are a nice terran player, you have to keep attacking... and it's easy because zerg are the fastest

Oh... of course you need to keep upgrading and keep tabs on defense... plus like so many have said you should get a feel for what works best against the enemies troops...

 

Yeah, Hydras vs. M&Ms will be very much damaged with that new reactor thing, that enables production of 2 units at same time. Now I believe it won't work. However, we've got banelings. They are sure to kill marines in 1 hit, or stack damage and kill groups by exploding 2 of them. Banelings must be the answer to reactor add-on.

Another option would be the Guardian, from higher ground. M&Ms can't hit them, as they can't climb, or overcome the huge range of the Guardian. Guardians do splash damage, and would take care of groups nicely too. The Vikings could be taken care by Scourges, and Battlecruisers I have no idea.

 

guardians certainly didn't do splash damage in starcraft 1, and they are sitting ducks for irradiate.

 

ya well if its gardians vs m&m's. i think terran lost anyways.

 

Guardians don't do splash damage.

Like i stated, quick Guardians can really catch the Terran off-guard. Most Terrans are too busy managing their tank push that they forget everything. If you keep harassing him with your Mutas/Lings while teching straight for Guardians, it would really screw him. Since you can morph all your mutas into guardians right away when the Greater Spire is up, it will really give you a huge # advantage to power through the Terran opponent. Most of the time, they will have at most 2 facts if you go quick tech for Guardians. Terran cannot keep up to the Zerg's production which means those Guardians are going to chew up the Terran in no time.

 

Hmm, the animation must have confused me. Somehow I got this on my mind and just realized I was wrong all this time!

Anyways, in SC1 (before Brood-war) I would use Spore-colonies with Guardians on top as advanced posts. They can take down Siege tanks while they're setting up, if in high enough numbers. And the Spore-colonies help them vs. aerial/invisible enemies. Was a good combination, exactly the case of Lurkers absence (they only came at BW anyway). Instead of Lurkers I would use Sunken-colonies as ground support. The colonies were an aid that didn't occupy control, so it was very handy. It's also an option.

 

Both Guardians and Dark Swarm are Tier 3.

 

zerg were beating terran in sc1 (before brood war) just fine with out lurks, i think they could make it just fine with out them in sc2 to.

 

I think the whole situation right now can't be examined clearly unless the variables for it are set. As the variables are really what set the M&M encounters from Terran so effective as they were small units that took less damage from most of the units.

Thus variables are as follows
-Unit Size
-Upgrades
-Amount
-Health
-Total Health
-Micro Skill
-Macro Skill
-Terrain
-Armor Type
-Attack Type

These variables develop the situation in which the M&M strategy of Terran. Now what we assume in Starcraft to be suitable strategies to challenge the M&M may not be suitable in SC2. So, at the moment we don't know for the Zerg or any other race including Terran could do in response to this.