Detectorific?

@Itza

Wasting time or not it didn't matter. If you have to wait from 30 energy to 50 energy to make a scan because the dark templars are killing ur entire army, thats a disadvantage compare to mobile detection. And please bear in mind that comsat station are not exclusively for detecting cloaked units but to spy on ur enemy as well. And please dun make it sounds like Terrans can scan as if the comsat doesn't require energy.

I do prefer mobile detectors. Thats true. Actually u are the one comparing the Terran and Zergs' detection capabilities. Not me. For me it didn't matter who is more detectorific. For me the issue is abt whether they have adequate detection while not having overpowered detectors just like SC1 Overlords. However I do believe now that Terrans' spider mines has been placed at a higher tier, their detection capabilities are not as good as Zerg or Protoss.

Yes the radar tower vulnerability is the same as the Protoss Pylon. But think in a bigger picture. Why should the Terran share the same vulnerability as the Protoss? SC is the game where there is diversity. if it works in SC1 why not SC2? Its really silly to give Terrans such disadvantage. Not only Terrans detection capabilities are badly nerf, it can POTENTIALLY hurt game balance as well. Anyway now that Blizzard made missile turrets passive detectors, it can be considered that Blizzard may have share the same view as me.

Seriously I won't mind my Zerg opponents having millions of spore crawlers..I am confident that not only the Zerg player will waste plenty of resources but I am also confident I can destroy them easily...

The bad bonus about the radar towers is that without ur opponent having to scout ur base, they would automatically know ur location...U gain by detecting in the fog of war but they automatically know ur location without them having to scout ur base..Isn't that stupid? I wouldn't say the radar tower is useless. In fact I say its really good against the AI. But against human opponent, it may not be fruitful. In short what I mean is dun persume it to be fantastic. Wait for the game to be release, then u will know. Remember the Terrans' opponent can play some mind games to distract the Terran player...

 

They wont automatically know where your base is because the radar tower has only a cetain amount of range. They would still need to send a scout out of thier base to find you. Also, the tower would only show that something is within range, yet doesn't have the ability to know what exactly it is.

 

Comparing the time taken to restore energy to mobile Detection, why would you have allowed yourself to be without Detection for the simply sake of scouting? The Scanner Sweep started with fifty Energy, so you'd've consciously had to have prioritised scouting over the risk of being vulnerable to Cloaking. I'm not making it out like it doesn't require Energy, but I am also assuming that the user has a brain stem, and doesn't prioritise scouting over Detection.

So you're not comparing Detection capabilities, aren't you? Mind reading the last sentence of that paragraph? "I do believe now that Terrans' spider mines has been placed at a higher tier, their detection capabilities are not as good as Zerg or Protoss"? And although I have obviously spoken in relation to the other races, I was not the one who turned this thread into being about Terran Detection. The issue is actually supposed to be about the Overseer.

Here you are talking about diversity and how Terran shouldn't have the same 'vulnerability' as Protoss, but you're insisting that they bring back early-tier Spider Mines? You do realise that's jumping out of the oven and into the frying pan, right?

Terran's Detection had not been nerfed that bad. They needed another structure in order to build static Detectors, bringing them back to being on par with the other races, and on top of that they had the Scanner Sweep. That's well under par if you're comparing them to the other races. All static Detectors are on the same level, while Terran get their Scanner Sweep a whole tier before the other races get their mobile Detectors. Regardless of the fact that the Scanner Sweep requires Energy, their Detection is well under par compared to the others.

Again, building as many Spore Crawlers as StarCraft1 players would have built Spore Colonies is not wasting minerals. The point is that they're mobile now, making it no different to having a Overlords with Detection protecting their base from Cloaked units. There are still just as many mobile Detectors throughout their base. Obviously not right from the get-go, but if the only problem was right from the get-go then there's nothing opposing a universal upgrade for Overlord Detection.

Eon covered this last point. They'd have to have been five seconds from discovering the location of your base anyway. And again, your mind games argument makes no sense. It's no different to if they 'fooled you' by running their units inside your visibility, and would take more effort to execute than it would disrupt your opponent. I don't even get how seeing that there's a unit outside your base is that much of a distraction anyway.

Again, running units through the radius of their Radar Tower is no different to running through their visibility. It's the exact same scenario, and it achieves nothing.

 

@Itza

That is true in the early games if SC2 follows as u say. Its not a matter of whether the player is smart enuf to conserve his/her energy for detection purpose. I repeat....Its a matter of giving the Terran players more choice in countering cloaked units..Mebbe u like to counter cloaked units by sweeping but I like to counter them by having missile turrets with passive detection or spider mines...Wouldn't having more alernatives make the game more interesting and dynamic? By following ur current system yes I have to follow what u suggest..What I m telling u is that I DO NOT LIKE the idea. Thankfully now Blizzard return the detection capabilities to missile turrets.

The thread maybe abt overseers but u talk as if Terrans detections are detectorific. That is where I have to clear things with u. The answer is a NO. If u still think so, of coz I can't stop u..Neither can u stop me from thinking its underpowered...And as I say I only complain abt Terrans' weak detection capabilities. For me having adequate detection is good enuf...Even though I made it clear that Zerg and Protoss detection capabilities are more superior, I couldn't care less as long as Terran detection is adequate. In short I pointed it out but I was never against Terran having the worse form of detection capabilities so long as they can counter cloaking units effectively with a number of viable choices. If truly I am complaining abt Terrans having the worse form of detection, I would be complaining abt Protoss obervers in this thread. Did I?

Abt the vulnerability and early spider mines, all I want is that SC2 follows SC1..So I dun really get ur point??? If it works in SC1, it can work in SC2. Thats why I am against these changes....

Again I think I have debated with u abt Terrans' detection so many million times. And I disagree....For me having early mobile detector is better than scanner sweep...Ur words are only right when it is applied late game..But have u think abt the early stage?? In the early stage all I have is the comsat and nothing else..No spider mines and I need missile turrets with radar towers for full detection....Terrans maybe alrite in terms of defensive but not offensive in the early game....Gosh the Protoss can harass ur energy until u need to turtle in ur base b4 the Terrans can even think to attack...Thats why the Terrans cannot rely on one method for detection in the early game...

Spore crawlers will nvr be as useful as Overlords in SC1....Besides they are slow and couldn't fly...In other words if the Zerg players wishes to build 100 spore crawlers when there isn't any air units or any cloaking units, be my guest...No matter what build the zergs opponent has in SC1, Overlords will always be useful...

U see the point of radar towers. Why the mind games is exactly the same with fooling me in visibility? Thats becoz without radar towers I also can send scout to check on my enemies nearby my base. So exactly what is the point of the radar tower? To save one marine or SCV as a scout from getting killed?? And worse of all is the radar towers do not lemme know what is that thing. In the case of an attack, it can at most help me response faster to defend my base....So really radar towers aren't that very useful....And abt the disadavantage, the enemy would already know the location of my base once the radar tower is built.

 

Dude, the Scanner Sweep gives them more choice than the others have. I don't know how else to put that. They're the only team that really has the ability to use such a mechanic for such different reasons. And no, giving each race all the choices like that wouldn't make the game dynamic, it'd make all the races the same. Currently Terran's the one with the greatest number of choices anyway. And if it's just that you do not like using it as much as other methods of Detection, then it is not a disadvantage. It's an opinion.

No, the term 'Detectorific' was used in relation to the Zerg. Me talking about how Terran has superior Detection in StarCraft2 does not mean that I think they're Detectorific. I didn't, and you can see that if my original post. It was all related to Blizzard's overcompensation of the universal Detection of Overlords issue by introducing the hideous Overseer. And I didn't say that you were complaining about Terran having the worse form of Detection.

You were saying that Radar Towers make them too similar to Protoss' vulnerability with Pylons, and that they should be changed for the sake of diversity, did you not? You're also saying that you want Spider Mines back. Don't you see that this is simply trading a similarity with Protoss for a similarity with Zerg? And of course there are going to be changes made. Just because something worked in StarCraft1 it doesn't mean it will or even should be in StarCraft2. If that was the case, StarCraft2 would simply be the next StarCraft patch.

As for disagreeing with their Detection, you've already stated that's because of your opinion and preferences. That doesn't make it unbalanced. And no, you don't just have a Scanner Sweep, you have Missile Turrets and Radar Towers available at the same stage as Protoss get their Photon Cannons and Zerg get their Spore Crawlers. It's not a waste of resources that you have to build something, the Radar Tower, in conjunction to it, because every race has to. So no, Terran do not only have one option for Detection in early game. They actually have more options than the other races. Terran have Scanner Sweep and Missile Turrets with Radar Towers, Protoss only have Proton Cannons with Pylons and Zerg only have Spore Crawlers with Creep Tumours.

In StarCraft1, Zerg players had excessive Overlords. There's no real difference between having enough and having an excessive number, because with an excessive number, there are simply just a lot that are never used. That said, Zerg players will have enough Spore Crawlers. They'll be distributed across the entire base, so it's not as though they'll be having to travel great distances, and weave through an extensive network of buildings. The point remains a Zerg base will still be littered with mobile Detectors in StarCraft2, which demands even less of a need for the Overseer.

Forgive me, but I have no clue about what you just said about the Radar Tower and mind games. The point remains that your opponent using them for 'mind games' makes as much sense as running units past his base, just within his visibility. It achieves nothing as only hinders the person who's trying to play the mind games.

And the point of the Radar Tower is to give you a warning. Instead of only discovering that you're being attacked when you hear 'Your base is under attack', you find out five full seconds before they actually get into range. That's crucial. It doesn't matter if you don't know what it is, as it tells you more that you'd've otherwise known anyway. It still gives you more info than you would otherwise have.

And your opponent would only know the position of the Tower once they were going to discover it anyway. On top of that, that supposed 'disadvantage' is as much an advantage than it is a disadvantage. You were the one talking about mind games, and now Terran actually have the means to do it effectively, unlike the other races just running past their radius as you continually suggest.

 

@Itza

The reason why we differ is that u are always thinking in terms of late game when all choices are easily available. I have always stress that in early games Terran detection not only is weaker compare to other races but can POTENTIALLY ruin the game balance. Let's look at Terrans detection capibilities in SC2 when missile turrets require radar towers..

1. Orbital Command

Just like scanner sweep, it is limited by energy. Only by having a low cost or fast mana regeneration can it be reliable detector. Available middle game..

2. Missile Turrets + Radar Towers

Not only it is vulnerable in the sense that once radar towers are gone, the missile turrets detection too is gone. Do u seriously expect Terrans to build missile turrets + radar towers towards the Protoss town in their offensive against the Protoss? I guess u want to force them to use exclusively scanner sweep. But thats not good as restricting choices means the game is less interesting...

3. Nomad

Compare to Obervers or Overseers not only they cost more gas but they are available much later than their Zerg and Protoss peers..In terms of late game, yes Terrans have more choices..But certainly not at late game...

4. Spider Mines

In SC1 spider mines can be employed in the early game. But unforunately now they are created by Nomads. Wats the point of having double detection capabilities in the late game???

In short in terms of offensive (attacking enemy base) in the EARLY STAGE of the game Terrans only has scanner sweep, Zerg has Overseers and Protoss has observers.. Among the 3 obviously Terrans are worse as the scan is limited...

Even in relation to Zerg, Terran's detection is not detectorific. Given anyday, I would prefer to rely on Overseers rather than scanner sweep...

I m not trading a similarity to the Protoss for a similarity for the Zerg...All I want is for Terrans' detection capabilities based on SC1. And their detection capabilities in SC1 isn't overpowered as the Zerg Overlords in SC1. Seriously there is nothing wrong for SC2 to follow SC1 mechanics. When changes are to be made, it is suppose to be for a better change. Not to make it worse without any good reasons.Both races have negative changes. The only difference is that Zerg one is with a good reason which is to allow cloaking to be viable against them. So if bad changes are to be made, it is best to follow SC1...

I have never said it would cause imbalanced in the game. At most it MAY cause imbalanced in the game. Take note that I have always wanted more choices for all races. And those choices must be viable one not ineffective choices just like missile turrets + radar tower...

For me there is a difference between having enough and excessive units..Anyway u asked why nobody seems to care, my answer is plain simple...spore crawlers is not going to be more multipurpose than Overlords in SC1...

The mind games is putting fake units such as decoys just to distract u...In other words warns u on unnecessary attacks..For me since u can scout with other units, radar towers is not that very useful...And if u said other races dun have this "unique" feature, for me observers are far greater. They are not only detectors but are cloaked as well. So if Terrans can discover the attack 5 seconds ago, the Protoss could discover the attack maybe 1 minute ago...

 

No, we are not differing when talking about Detection. I have not been talking about end-game and have only discussed Detection as far as static defences, which are by no means end-game.

As for the list of Terran Detection...

1. Orbital Command is early game. It requires a Barracks. Energy is only a limitation is if it misused, and, likewise, it is only unreliable for Detection again if it is misused by the Terran player. It's like saying Missile Turrets in StarCraft1 don't provide reliable Detection because if they're built on the other side of the map then they won't Detect stealthed units in your base.

2. Radar Towers and Missile Turrets are not vulnerable. If relying on another building is so 'vulnerable', then the Protoss are the weakest race out there. As for forcing Scanner Sweep, it's an advantage the other races don't have. Simple as that. You'd only need one Sweep, tops, anyway, so I don't see why you'd want to build a Missile Turret there anyway, especially when you're so concerned about 'wasting resources'.

3. Nighthawk. The only Detector in the game that's able to defend itself. On top of that, they're not available later than Overseers and Observers. For Overseers a Zerg player needs to build a Spawning Pool and upgrade to a Lair, which takes more time than a regular building. As for the Protoss, they need to go Gateway, Cybernetics Core, then Robotics Facility. That's the same as the Terran. So, yeah. Don't make up crap about the Nighthawk only being available much later than Observers and Overseers. Overall, Zerg probably get Overseers slightly earlier, but they're at the same level as Protoss.

4. Spider Mines. You do realise that you said the Scanner Sweep was middle game, don't you? And you do realise that you're saying Spider Mines, which were available after Scanner Sweep, are early game, don't you?

And again, Overseers and Observers are middle game, just as everything at their tier is. In early game, Zerg and Spore Crawlers and Burrowed Banelings, if they're rushed, and Protoss have Photon Cannons. What do Terran have? Missile Turrets, Radar Towers and the Scanner Sweep.

As for the changes, they're not exclusively made for the better. They're made for balancing reasons as well as simply being what the devs decide on doing.

Saying it may cause imbalances is meaningless unless you can back it up. The point remains that it's still purely based on your personal view that you, yourself, like Observers more. And again, Terran have more choices than the other races, you're just choosing to ignore some based on the fact that you don't personally like them and then claim that they don't have enough. Well of course they won't if you ignore them. And if building an extra Radar Tower makes the choice is not viable, I seriously don't know what to say.

And what difference is there between having enough and an excessive amount? You've still got universal mobile Detection of your entire base. Detection doesn't overlap, so having an excessive amount does nothing for Detection. And Spore Crawlers don't need to be as multi-purpose as Overlords. They only need to have the same purpose of Detection and be present in the same numbers.

And again, setting up such an elaborate scheme to momentarily distract your opponent will be more a distraction to you than it would be to the Terran player. It accomplishes nothing. Again, it's just like running a unit past their base, just within their visibility. What does it actually achieve?

And yes, we know you prefer Observers. I prefer Terran's ability to build absolutely anywhere, and feel it's far greater than the Protoss and Zerg, but that doesn't mean it's unbalanced, nor does it mean it should be fixed. It's simply preference. And again, it's still an early warning. If you cannot see the value in that, then I can't see you being a very intense player. More the player that would just sit there and watch how the battle pans out.

And if Observers can discover the attack about a minute before, Scanner Sweep can discover it while it's being prepared. Not only do Terran still have the edge, but regardless of all that, it's still a warning. I don't see how you can't see the value of that.

 

@itza you have always been talking abt late game when all choices are easily available. In early game SC2, only the scanner sweep is viable. Radar towers + missile turrets are a form of weakness which u never accept. And Nighthawk are too high tech and require more gas for them to be effective detectors...U shouldn't just judge based on the total amount of counter against cloaking units while IGNORING the inefficieny of some of the choices..

Orbital Command

Like I said plenty times its not abt the issue of misusing the energy..Its abt giving more choices to Terrans to counter cloaking units while allowing them to utilize scanner sweep to do some spying. The issue I have always raised is abt giving more choices...Thats why I wouldn't be happy if nydus worm is the only choice for Zerg's transportation...And thankfully now Overlords do transport...Again i repeat....GIVE TERRANS MORE CHOICES!!!
More choices means the game is more interesting and makes strategy alot more complicated...

Radar Towers

Even though Protoss requires pylon, they are far better than missile turrets + radar towers...Why???? Thats becoz phase canons can ATTACK BOTH GROUND AND LAND...where else missile turrets are restricted purely to air. Ur arguments only hold well if Blizzard starts to nerf phase canons until they can only attack air for example....Ur examples are just pure ridiculous....U should just stop comparing the two races...

Building missile turrets are way better than to sweep...They are there 24/7 and if any cloaking units dare to strike, the Terrans can immediately kill them..Where else scanner sweep is more risky...Only if u manage to spot the shadows, can u immediately nullify the threat. Otherwise u will suffer some damage..Plus if the enemy keep on sending cloaking unist every few minutes in different location, can u be 100% sure u will never be run out of energy???U surely will need some turrets. Its never wasting resources as they help u to defend against air attacks too..In SC1 it can help against shuttle + reavers..In SC2 against Collosus. Conclusion missile turrets / spider mines > scanner sweep...

Nighthawk

Since when nighthawk can defend itself? Just like science vessel they are very vulnerable..U must be joking if u mentioned auto turrets.....Anyway Nighhawks not only come later but are more expensive as well.. Terran = Barracks, Factory, Starport and Tech Lab while Protoss = Gateway , cybernetics core and robotic facility (no longer needed null circuit any longer) and Zerg only spawning pool and lair...See the difference? Terrans need 3 buildings and 1 add on while Protoss need 3 buildings. Zerg is the best as they only need 2. Therefore Terrans will be later...Furthermore since Terrans' strategy is likely to be ground based, most of the time Terran players will build nighthawk later than Zerg's Overseers and Protoss Observers...And also nighthawks are more expensive (more gas), therefore most probably the Terrans will never be able to match the Zerg and Protoss mobile detectors in terms of quantity...Ur analysis is too simplistic while mine is way more detail...

Spider Mines

They are early in SC1 but late in SC2. There maybe some typing error or misunderstanding..But basically for me spider mines ought to be in the early stage in SC2...

Terrans have more choices but some choices are inefective which u will nvr admit..One of them is missile turrets + radar towers which thankfully Blizzard fix it...

Itza requiring the radar tower may not make it imbalanced but make it very annoying...Forcing the requirement of radar tower is like forcing dark templars can only cloaked with energy restriction just like Ghosts. What I am pointing out is that do not fix something which is not broken..Thats an unnecessary changes and very useless. If u insist I need radar towers to power up missile turrets detections then I will insist dark templars require energy to cloaked just like Ghosts...Thankfully Blizzard restore missile turrets detection capabilities. Why am I arguing for something that is oredi been corrected by Blizzard? Weird...

The difference between excessive and enough is that excessive will really made u practically immune while having enough means there is still a way for me to bypass their detectors..Anyway nobody is making a fuss in this thread abt spore crawlers maybe with u as an exception...So are u suggesting to me I should have problems with spore crawlers or are u suggesting that u have problems with it? Enlighten me...

Technically they can distract u and deliver the killing blow when u are least expect it..Of coz it doesn't work all the time. My point is that not necessary radar towers are that very helpful..It rings unnecessary alarms too just like ur dog barking at ur neighbours instead of robbers / burglars..One should nvr be overly dependant on it..

If u really like Terrans' ability to build anywhere on the map, u can choose to play Terrans as ur main race in SC2. It seems like u have high regards for Terrans. If I am u, I would complain that Protoss are detectorific in relation to Zergs...

Radar towers do give early warnings but some warnings can be fake..Against AI, it might be fantastic as I believe AI would not intentionally play mind games with u..As for scounting purposes, I have always relied on scouts (marines or scvs), comsat for spying and spider mines for enemies movement...Hence I see little use in radar towers...

Scanner sweep takes some luck while observers are more reliable becoz they can move around undetected in many areas. Furthermore scanner sweep needs energy unlike observers...In clonclusion, my observers can spy in wider areas more than ur scanner sweep...

 

Again, Terran already have the most choices for early game. I have not been talking about late game. As I have said numerous times, I've only ever taken early Detection as far as the first static defences. That is early game, and in early game, Terran have the greatest number of choices. I have no clue how else to put that. Seriously.

Radar Towers and Missile Turrets are not a form of weakness and is no different to if you simply had a couple of Missile Turrets in StarCraft1. They're still at as much risk, and need to be closer to the fighting. That's not the case with Radar Towers. They can be back in the depths of your base and still provide your Missile Turrets with Detection.

The fact that Missile Turrets are only Anti-Air is irrelevant as you have Bunkers and it's no different to back in StarCraft1. I'm not ignoring the inefficiency, you're just making up reasons why it's inefficient. The Radar Tower is only in danger if you build it in danger, and even if they are rushing you with Dark Templar or whatever, they wouldn't be able to cut down a Radar Tower before you take them out. On top of that, you have the Scanner Sweep. So, finally, there is nothing wrong with Radar Towers providing Detection for Missile Turrets.

Orbital Command - Again, the Terran have the most early game Detection choices at their disposal. It is able to be used for both spying and Detection as well, so there you have even more choices. It's only when the player consciously chooses to use up their final Sweep when they're at risk of being attacked by Cloaked units, and so they should, because that's the risk they've made. Again, Terran have the most choices for early game.

Radar Towers - It's irrelevant that Photon Cannons can attack both Ground and Air targets. Detection does not stack and Terran have plenty of Anti-Ground defence anyway. Neither Detection nor defence are compromised.

Yes, Missile Turrets are better than Sweep, but the fact is that you have both while other players only have static Detectors. On top of that, you've also been talking about when you're attacking a base that has Cloaked units, and the Scanner Sweep is far superior for the offensive. The point is that you still have access to both of them. And if your opponent keeps sending in Cloaked units, why the **** haven't you built some Missile Turrets? Seriously dude, stop trolling. You were the one talking about having choices, and the Terran have the means to counter all of this, so don't bull**** on about how you'll run out of Energy. They have both options. The Scanner Sweep's an extra utility that Terran have compared to the other races so do not say that it's such a hindrance or so inefficient.

And as for only knowing when to use the Scanner Sweep when you start getting attacked or are lucky enough to spot the moving blips on the map, that's not the case either. Again you're choosing to ignoring the Radar Tower's ability to locate enemies units within its radius.

Seriously dude, think about what you're saying.

Nighthawk - As I said, the Nighthawk is the only one of the Detectors that can defend itself. If you don't think that dropping Auto Turrets and Targeting Drones or Mines as it flees doesn't count as defending itself, I dunno what to say. It's no different to defences being built around a base in order to defend the base.

And you're forgetting that the Tech Lab doesn't need to be built from the Starport itself. It can be built as early as the Barracks, and any Terran player in their right mind would already have one. Terran need three buildings, Protoss need three buildings, and Zerg need one and their Lair. Therefore, Terran will not be later. And again you're just bull****ting about Terran strategy. There's nothing to say that it will be predominantly Ground-based any more than any of the other races. Especially considering the Viking and freaking Medivac Dropship are built at the Starport, you have absolutely nothing to back yourself. In fact, being Ground-based, they'd have a tonne of infantry, so the Medivac would be their lifeline. Literally.

Spider Mines - There's no misunderstanding, you were just saying that Spider Mines in StarCraft1 were early game, but the Orbital Command, which comes before Spider Mines did, was middle game. You're just spewing out random facts to try and back up your arguments, just as you're doing with the Radar Towers. You're expecting, or at least desiring for Terran to be personalised just for you and to have just what you want in regards to Detection, and you're just labelling everything that simply doesn't appeal to you as being ineffective or inefficient. That's simply not the case. Terran have everything the other races have in regards to Detection for early game, plus the Scanner Sweep, plus the location and forewarning of the Radar Tower. Combine the Scanner Sweep with the Radar Tower and you'll never miss.

And again, the Radar Tower is no more forced than Photon Cannons or Spore Colonies are. It's no different to building a Bunker for your infantry or completing an essential upgrade, like Siege Mode. If building a Radar Tower is so annoying and so forced that its effects should simply be automatic, like you're saying should be the case, why not give Marines tank-line health or have Siege Tanks come ready with Siege Mode? It's part of the progression of the game and you're looking at it through such a narrow spectrum.

And if your 'arguing what Blizzard has already been corrected' argument is so fantastically correct, then you can drop the crap about Nighthawks, Spider Mines, Scanner Sweeps and the radius of Radar Towers. 'It's already been corrected by Blizzard'.

And about 'excessive' and 'enough', no. Enough means your base is already covered. As I said, Detection does not overlap. There's no use in having more Detectors than you need.

I'm saying that if Cloaking was not viable against Zerg in StarCraft1 because their base was crawling with Detectors, then the issue hasn't been resolved. Again, remember we're supposed to be talking in relation to the Overseer here. It's not a fix if bases are still crawling with mobile Detectors. If Cloaking is going to end up not being viable against Zerg anyway, then why do we need the Overseer in order to 'fix' the problem? A cost-per-cost upgrade for Overlords would do fine, not to mention all the options I'd listed last time this thread was active.

As for the unnecessary alarm, it's not going to distract you as you're saying it is. It only takes a second to check out what's going on, and it would have taken your opponent far longer than that to set it up. As I said, it's basically combined an increased line of sight and you constantly watching that area of the screen into one building. As for 'delivering a killing blow from another side', who's to say that you don't have a Radar Tower to warn you of any dangers on that, supposed, other side? And the dog barking is a perfect analogy. You're not going to react if nothing's wrong. But if something is wrong, then you've been made aware of it while they're still outside, when you otherwise only would have found out once they'd already broken in. Quick question, do you actually have a dog? And simply having built a Radar Tower does not mean you're overly dependant on it. It's there for a warning, to tell you if there are any enemies in the area. If there are, you react. If there's only one, then you don't. Regardless, you've been warned, and know of your opponent's actions.

And...

THANKYOU! You've said exactly what I've been thinking. If you have such a problem with Terran Detection, if you think that Zerg and Protoss are so superior, have your preferred method of Detection and, for some reason, more choices, play as them! And FYI, I play Terran and Zerg in StarCraft1. With Protoss, I don't consider them being superior to Zerg in Detection. They're on par, tops. Zerg have mobile Spore Crawlers while Protoss have static Photon Cannons, and Protoss have Cloaked Observers while Zerg have the hideous Overseer. Again, the problem broils down to the Overseer.

Yes, some Radar Tower warnings can be fake. So what? Is that really going to hinder you for longer than it took your opponent to build those troops and run them across the map to your base? Not only could you simply ignore such attempts to distract you, but you could also simply send a few Vikings out and take them out. It's your call.

As for your scouting, spying and deploying of mines, yes, that's what you do. That does not mean the Radar Tower is useless, not even to you. It still gives you that forewarning so you'll never be taken off-guard. Also, simply not having a use for something doesn't mean it's useless. I mean, I may not end up using Ghosts or Banelings, but that doesn't mean they're useless.

Scanner Sweep will no longer take luck with the Radar Tower. If you're referring to when you're on the offence, I think you'll be able to see that they're standing right next to your Marines.

I apologise for if I sounded aggressive or offensive earlier, but please think about what you're saying.

 

@Itza I did not come here trolling fyi..

Okay in early game they may have more choices but what u are talking abt is quantity but what abt QUALITY? They are far inferior. Seriously in early game there are no nighthawks and no spider mines. Only turrets and scanner sweep...Zerg has ur mobile spore crawlers and Overseers while Protoss has observers and phase canons...Beat that...

RADAR TOWERS

When it comes to radar towers + missile turrets, it is a form of a weakness even if the game is balanced. No matter how u look at it, the fact is once the enemy take down the radar towers, all missile turrets lose detection..Therefore if u say it is not a form of weakness, its total BULL****..There is no point creating an unecessary wekaness in the Terran side..

When the Terran player wants to attack the Protoss base filled with dark templars of course they need some detectors. Let's say they choose to build radar towers + missile turrets near the Protoss base..Therefore the radar tower will be in a dangerous area..Its so easy to nullify the detectors..One anti gravity on the radar towers, a few missile turrets are rendered useless allowing dark templars to run rampant...what i am saying is due to the radar tower requirement, this becomes not a viable choice and the Terran had to resort to scanning..One less effective choice to counter cloaked units especially in the offensive against Protoss...

Its very relevant why photon canons can attack ground and air compare to missile turrets only being able to attack air. This makes photon canons more useful in defending base and hence Protoss detection capabilities would be far greater...In short protoss players are better off spamming photon canons rather than Terran players spamming missile turrets..Please think b4 u post...

When u talked abt being FORCED see it from SC1 progression to SC2. As I said unnecessary nerfs aren't desirable..And u can stop exaggerating that I intend the game to be more simplified....U will only understand how I feel if I made ur favourite units requiring more buildings or resources and made their existence more useless..For me there is no difference for ur request to get rid of overseers and mine to get rid of radar towers...

When unnecessary alarms does happen, it can either backfire to the Terrans or the invaders..For ur ques I do not have dogs but I can tell u that barking unnecessarily at ur neighbours is not fruitful at all...Talk is simple when u said u are not going to react if there isn't anything major happening. But when u happen to be outsmarted by ur opponent thx to ur radar towers, be prepared to accept a graceful defeat. In short u have over valued radar towers..

Yes of coz radar tower warnings can be fake. My point is that i am telling u I dun need radar towers...For me they may not worth the resources...In fact I think Blizzard is creating an unnecessary building for Terrans...I can scout myself to figure out when they are going to attack me...

MISSILE TURRETS

Again i would like to point out that having missile turret + radar tower is a very major weakness for Terrans especially in the offensive...Its not a matter whether I had build missile turrets b4 those dark templars attack me...Its the FACT that the radar towers can be easily taken down allowing cloaked units to kill my offensive troops..That is one thing u can't deny..It is a weakness that may make the game imbalanced..Anyway Blizzard oredi corrected this error probably knowing that Terrans will have trouble attacking if they have to rely exclusively on scanner sweep. One anto gravity and there gone ur radar towers..Its really too easy to disable Terran detection of missile turrets + radar towers...In short based on the old version, the Terran has one reliable choice which is scanner sweep. So u can stop saying Terrans have more choices especially in the offensive...

NIGHTHAWKS

They cannot attack and hence they are unable to defend themselves..Auto turrets are used not to defend themselves but to provide additional defence to Terrans and to harass enemies mineral lines..Targetting drones dun do a single damage and dropping spider mines to defend themselevs are just ridiculous..

The fact that there is an additional tech lab requirement, it means that Terrans require more buildings...As simple as that...And if u dun wan to believe me that Terran players will build starport late game, fine. Wait for SC2. One thing u can nvr deny is that nighthawks require more gas compare to observers and overseers. Hence Terrans will nvr have enuf nighthawks compare to Zerg or Protoss...Conclusion yes Terran has limited access to mobile detectors compare to Zerg or Protoss...

ORBITAL COMMAND

Hahahaha....Is there orbital command in SC1? Hahahahaha...Obviously it is referenced to SC2 where spider mines is late game...Therefore it is simple. U misunderstood...Orbital command = middle game and spider mine = late game in SC2..U r really ridiculous...

ZERG

When I read through ur sentence for the first time, I had the impression that u really wanted the Zerg to be no longer immune to cloaking units...But as I read further I can only LAUGH...U r just to obsessive with Overseers...I dunno why are u so against the concept of Overseers and wanted Overlord to be the sole detector...But in regards to Zergs detection, I have always been neutral...For me overseers are doing fine. Maybe Blizzard just need to give them better spells. Other than that, Overseers are fine..Seriously u r too obsessive abt Overseer's problems...If spore crawlers are going to make zerg immune to cloaking, so be it...Its good that zergs can move around their static defence..

CONCLUSION

Blizzard has oredi fixed one big error which is missile turrets + radar towers. Now thanks to them they oredi made missile turrets able to detect themselves..However there is one more issue which is spider mines...I would be glad if they allow Hellions to produce spider mines. So as long Blizzard haven't fix spider mines, why should i shut my mouth? Anyway its you that like to bring up old problems like missile turrets + radar towers which is non-existence now...In that case its best we leave out missile turrets + radar towers since it is oredi fixed anyway.

 

I didn't come here for trolling either.

Dude, you were the one talking about choices. What is choice if there's no quantity? And again, you're confusing early and mid game. Early game, each race has their static towers and Terran, in addition to that, has the Scanner Sweep. Overseers, Observers and Nighthawks are all mid game.

Radar Towers - If it's balanced, then no, it isn't an unnecessary weakness. It'll be balanced. And it's not as simple as taking out a Radar Tower and losing all Detection. Firstly, Radar Towers have a much larger range than Pylons so wouldn't be on the front line. Secondly, even if they were, to have Cloaked units that early your opponent would not have a very strong force, and would most likely not be able to take out the Radar Tower before they were killed. Thirdly, it's practically the same for all races at that stage, excluding Protoss. Fourthly, Terran still have their Scanner Sweep as backup. There's no weakness. You're choosing to make one.

You're right, when attacking a Protoss base filled with Dark Templar, not that that ever happens in early game but anyway, they're obviously going to need Detectors. Firstly, it's no easier to nullify Detection when building a Radar Tower and Missile Turret than it would be with just a Missile Turret. Regardless, they jsut have to take out one structure. Secondly, you switched from talking about attacking to talking about defending just then. Keep in the same context. Thirdly, the Terran player should already be aware of this, and should be prepared for the attack. Not only does being prepared for the attack require having a strong attacking army, but it will also require Scanner Sweeps. Having both is vital to the attack. You cannot just exclude Detection or an army. They go hand in hand and are part of the strategy of the game, part of the planning and tactics. Obviously if a player is not adequately prepared, then they're going to face the consequences. Fourthly, this is not a disadvantage. Yes, they wouldn't be able to do what they did in StarCraft1, but they're still the forerunners of this tactic. Protoss would have to wait for a Pylon to be completed and then have to build the Photon Cannon, and Zerg wouldn't be able to do it at all. With Terran, they can build both at once. Yes, it's true that if one of the structures is taken out then that's their Detection down, but it's the same for the Protoss. And don't say that Protoss can just use Observers, because you know that Observers are available at the same time as Nighthawks.

Again, Detection does not stack and both races have balanced Anti-Ground defence. The ability for a structure to physically defend its base has nothing to do with its ability to Detect.

Unnecessary nerfs are not desirable, no, but just because you do not like it, it doesn't mean it's unnecessary, nor does it mean it's useless. The difference between this and the Overseer is that Zerg fans just don't like the Overseer, it's not that they think it's useless. In games, regardless of whether Zerg players like them or not, Overseers will be used. They're extremely useful. That said, they're due to Blizzard's overreaction from StarCraft1, and it still doesn't solve the problem. It solves in it regards to Dark Templar rushes, yes, but it doesn't solve it in regards to the big picture. They've basically failed trying to fix something that was broken in StarCraft1.

How can it backfire? How have they outsmarted you by setting off a warning that they're near one of your Radar Towers? You always talk of it being a distraction and playing mind games but you have not said how it is, other than them running it past your Tower's radius. How does this disadvantage you? What is done to disadvantage you? If it's set off, you can see if something is there. If it's a threat, you've been warned. If it's not, who gives a damn? This 'fake warning disadvantage' is similar to one of two things. It's either similar to your opponent running a unit within the radius of your line of sight, or it's similar to your opponent having a diversionary attack on one of your defences. Regardless of which one it is, you still know about it before they are able to pull it off. Seriously, all the Radar Tower does is combine an extended line of sight with a proximity warning. None of those are a disadvantage. If they are, explain how. All you've said so far is that they can set of fake warnings, and that it'll help them win the match. How?

And just to elaborate on the dog issue, yes, I have a dog, and she runs up and down the fence every time someone walks down the street. It is not a distraction, and when she does, everyone is obviously aware that there's someone walking down the street. How is that a disadvantage? All that happens is I'm aware of someone's presence earlier than I otherwise would have been.

Firstly, yes, they may not be worth the resources. That's just speculation, and is no different to someone playing StarCraft1saying that the Missile Turrets may, or are, not worth the resources, and that Bunkers should automatically be Detectors. That's not the case. Regardless of what you do, you will not always be aware of an impending attack. This warns you of any impending attack, and of any surprise attacks you may have missed.

Again, I've already explained how it is no more of a disadvantage than it is to other races. Again, no longer having an advantage does not mean you're at a disadvantage. And, again again, Radar Towers would only be vulnerable to attack if you built them so they're vulnerable to attack.

And as for the 'Blizzard already corrected this error' argument, as I said, if you're going to use that argument for the change of the Missile Turrets, I'll use it for the Mines, Scanner Sweep, and Radar Tower. So if you're correct about Missile Turrets because Blizzard changed them, I'm correct about Mines, Scanner Sweep and the Radar Tower, because Blizzard did not change them.

As for Anti-Gravity, Phoenixes are on the same tech as Observers, and therefore, are on the same tech as Nighthawks, and again, if you've planned your strategy properly, you shouldn't solely be relying on static Detectors. Wasn't it you who was talking about how you shouldn't over-value things?

Nighthawks - Are you honestly telling me you cannot see how the Nighthawk can defend itself by deploying Auto Turrets and Mines? Auto Turrets have other uses than harassing, you know. You might not have noticed, but they attack stuff. If the Nighthawk is in trouble it can deploy some of these which will be able to attack the stuff that's attacking it. Seriously, saying the Nighthawk can't defend itself with Auto Turrets is like saying a High Templar can't defend itself with Psionic Storm. As for Mines, if it's running away and units are chasing after it, how is dropping a few mines before fleeing not going to deter them? Lastly, with Targeting Drones, when dropped with Auto Turrets they increase the Turret's damage by fifty percent.

And if you're still *****ing about the Tech Lab, then Protoss require Pylons, so if the Terran require three buildings and an add-on, the Protoss require three buildings and a Pylon. And I have no clue what you're going on about in regards to building a Starport in late game. The Nighthawk, Observer and Overseer are all in mid game. It's as simple as that.

To reiterate...

Terran:
1. Command Centre...
2. Barracks...
3. Factory...
4. Starport...
5. Tech Lab... (Which can actually be built sooner)
= Nighthawk.

Protoss:
1. Nexus...
2. Pylon... (Which can't be built sooner)
3. Gateway...
4. Cybernetics Core...
5. Robotics Facility...
= Observer.

Face it, they're available at the same time, and if you're wanting to get really nit-picky about it, which you are, the Tech Lab can be built sooner, so it actually wouldn't take as long to get to the Nighthawk as it would the Observer.

Orbital Command - Don't push your luck, dude. You know perfectly well that the Orbital Command serves the exact same function as the ComSat in regards to Detection, and is available at the exact same time. It only requires a Barracks. That is all. Compare that to your precious Spider Mines from StarCraft1 which require a Barracks, a Factory, a Machine Shop and an upgrade. Whichever way you look at it, you're ****ing wrong. As I said, don't push your luck.

Zerg - Again, stop trolling. Don't push your luck. Your lucky that I haven't simply given up on this discussion. Some of your hypotheticals make absolutely no sense, you simply do not know your facts and even when you're wrong, you have the nerve to laugh at me. Not only laugh, but say that I'm obsessive, while you argue about the extreme tiny flaws of every little aspect of Terran Detection. Seriously, your arguments are not even grunt-worthy any more.

As for my views of the Overseer, as I've said repeatedly, they have a terrible model, terrible spells, ruined the Nydus Worm which will most likely be cut from the game now, and replaces the iconic backbone of the Zerg army. Not only that, but they do not solve the problem. Oh, and if you think that's 'too obsessive' take a look at how much of these posts you spend complaining about Terran Detection and compare it to how much I spend complaining about the Overseer. If I'm obsessive, you must have the absolute worst case of OCD ever observed in a human being.

Conclusion - If we're going to leave out the Missile Turret and Radar Tower issues because Blizzard has already made their decision, then, again, we should leave out the Mines, Radar Tower and Scanner Sweep issues. As you can see, that line of argument makes no sense and is completely hypocritical if you only apply it to that which you wish it be applied to.

 

@Itza I nvr said u were trolling

Anyway nighthawks are late game units not middle game units. Overseers only require overlords, spawning pool and lair. Hence overseers will be faster than nighthawks. As for observers, they can be released faster if the Protoss player choose to do so. Since nighthawks cost more gas, naturally it will be harder for Terrans to spend on mobile detectors compare to the other 2 races.

Balanced or not, it is an unnecessary weakness. With missile turrets being able to detect by themselves would not cause any balance issue or issues like SC1 Overlords, then there isn't any problems at all. No point fixing something which is broken. Any units has weakness in SC. So when the weakness is unnecessary that not only there is no balance issue but no other issues that affects the quality of the game, then by all means no nerfing should be done. A weakness should only be created when there are balance issues or issues that affects the game strategy such as zergs immunity to cloaked units in SC1.

Its never the issue of whether the Terran player is able to defend their radar towers and missile turrets. Its an issue of not only preventing an unnecessary changes but also to give Terrans more viable counter against cloaked units. If truly there are problems with missile turrets detecting themselves, Blizzard would have oredi strengthen cloaked units in general.

Please do not confuse other ppl. Certainly it won't work on me. U r diverting the issue of phase canons and missile turrets. Is is clear that since phase canons can attack ground and air, they become more useful as oppose to missile turrets. That makes it more spammable and hence protoss detection is better in terms of static defence compares to Terran. By ur logic there is no harm at all to nerf Phase canons to only have GTA. It may work. But u can be certain that many protoss players will be unhappy..

I can tell u not only i find radar towers not that useful but I also do not like them. Fortunately they are gone in the trash and now they are no longer needed to power up missile turrets. Therefore since I dislike radar towers and u disliking overseers then it is the same. For me u are just having too high standards for Blizzard. For me its oredi fixed..Maybe u can elaborate what u mean is the bigger picture. And for me nydus worm is a unique feature.

For me radar towers are not that very useful. Their disadvantage is that the enemies will know ur location. Let me paint a scenario

The Terran player has base A and base B which are seperated by some significant distance. Suddenly the radar tower rings some alarm. U scan and discover that there are huge amount fo stalkers (or other fast units) heading towards ur base. Ur base A has very few troops and u decided to mobilize ur troops in base B. By the time u reach, u discovered that they gone blinking away and in fact some of them were mirror images. By the time most of ur troops reach base A, another force came and attack base B. Now the scenario is if the radar nvr rings any alarm, u wouldn't have mobilize the troops that fast in base B. As such due to the radar towers u suffer more losses since the enemy is playing some games with u.

In short this means while u are able to take advantage of the radar towers,so can ur opponent. As such this becomes more like a player skill. Therefore it becomes controversial. The Terran can not always guarentee the radar tower will work to their advantage. in fact by knowing too much sometimes, it can cause harm to u..

AG has been a Nullifier spell b4 the same time when missile turrets require radar towers. It was once an issue. Anyway now that radar towers are no longer needed, the issue is dead.

I would not waste energy to defend nighthawks by summoning turrets. Its always better to support them with other units instead of wasting energy summoning turrets. Targeting drones dun do a single damage and they are supportive spells. I won't plant mines in front of my enemies. They will know ur spider mines and avoid them. In the process of casting they can attack u. Its better to just flee in this situation.

If u add in pylon, I will add in supply depot. Though they are not a requirement, surely the Terrans need supply depot to support a sizeable army. Would u build all the way to nighthawks without a single supply depot? if ur answer is yes, u do need to do more praying if u wish to win the game.

U clealy said that I claim that spider mines comes earlier than orbital command in SC2. So please do not talk as if I said something wrong. Even if u r rite, no point arguing abt this anyway.

In regards to zerg, it is very clear that u put ur overseers' problems way above the issue of zerg being immune to cloaking units. It is extremely clear. The reason I laugh is becoz I thought u were serious in ensuring that zerg cannot be immune to cloaking units in SC2. Turn out all u care is abt ur Overseers. I wouldn't care if spore crawlers will make zerg immune to cloaking units. For me its better than SC1. And if I am sitting in ur place, I wouldn't bother whether Blizzard over nerf Overseers. It seems u prefer Overseers to be more detectorific than spore crawlers. Anyway in regards to Zerg, I have always been neutral so long as SC1 Overlords are gone.

I did not create a thread abt radar towers sucks. But u did create one to complain abt Overseers. If u say I am too obsess, u are just the same. Besides all Overseers need is some better spells. Even if they are not improved, they will do fine. Its just that they won't be useful enough. Mebbe u ought to explain abt the "bigger picture". For me Blizzard did a good job fixing it.

CONCLUSION

Ever since missile turrets can detect themselves, I am oredi satisfied. Allowing spider mines in early game for me would be a bonus. Its just u that is unsatisfied abt Overseers.

 

A Cannon costs 150 minerals while a Turret costs 100. Their detection areas are next to, if not exactly equal, so in terms of detection Turrets provide static detection over an area 50% bigger than Cannons will, for the same price. Surely this lower cost balances out the Cannon's GtG capabilities, especially since Terran have Siege Tanks and Bunkers (both very diverse) to defend against ground with.
Cannons alone are kinda fragile from say a ground only attack since a lot of their potential GtG damage is gone to balance out their GtA capabilities, so it's not always good.
Basically, Terrans have the option to customize their defenses/detection to fit the situation more than Zerg and Protoss can.

And if spending too much money on Siege Tanks and Bunkers (and the infantry in it) has left you short of Turrets, don't worry. The Orbital Command is a must for any Terran player since it enables the Calldown of Mules (which is as essential as using Dark Pylons as Protoss and having Queens as Zerg), so if you're in a tight situation, just throw a Scan, anywhere you need and want.

That's so hypocritical.

And it's just you who's unsatisfied about Terran detection.
...Well, actually, there's a lot of people besides Itza disliking the Overseer.

 

Umm no offense but, duh. That's why this thread was started...

Just as you said that building a radar tower can possibly hurt you because of your knowledge who's to say that it doesn't work both ways because it definitely does. Say your building your base and you know that your enemy is near massing an assault simply because of the time passed. You could send an SCV out and build a radar tower anywhere. When it beeps it pulls the enemies forces away from their base because they think 'aha I've got him' when in actuality all you wanted was to pull his base defenses out to slam his base hard and possibly take him out depending on how aggressive the other player is. Always consider every disadvantage to yourself to be an advantage to you as well. Every option you have is an advantage. Looking at that scenario no other race could pull that kind of tactic off. At least not in the same way or nearly as fast.

Doing just fine and not being 'useful enough' do not go hand in hand that's like saying a clearly sub par unit will do okay in the perfect scenario. This still doesn't take from the fact that the unit is sub par.

 

Ok same scenario, but now the it turns out that the attacking units were not a distraction and you managed to get your units there in time to defend your expansion. Without radar turrets you would've lost that expansion and a considerable amount of your economy. Now, which scenario is more likely to happen?

Acknowledging the percieved problem and having issues with the solution that zerg players

 

@Gasmaskguy

The moment u added in Siege Tanks and Bunkers into the equation, u have just acknowledge that phase canons are more useful than missile turrets. To compensate for the lack of GTG for missile turrets, not only u have to fork out more minerals but u have wasted some supply inside ur defence. That statement of urs only prove that Phase Canons > Missile Turrets.

Of course the canons cost more than missile turrets. But ur arguments still isn't correct from the perspective of cost. Why? In early game there is hardly any air units and to be cost efficient missile turrets aren't that good. Thats why in early games some Terrans would rather resort to scan like Itza or dump some mines within the surrounding area. Of coz these choices are all personal prefence. But remember scan cost energy while mines not only counter cloaked units but damage other units as well. If u look from a cost perspective, mines or scanning seems better. The Protoss on the other hand need not build another "missile turret + bunker". Just another phase canons with GTA and GTG. The GTG on the phase canons is so valuable becoz it provide additional defence in early game. Tats valuable. While missile turrets with only GTA is weak becoz there are hardly any air units early game.

I am sure there are others that are unsatisfied too. Even if its only me, Blizzard has oredi fix the problem for me by throwing the radar tower requirement. So this sentence of urs is useless on me.

Ur Zerg players secretly dislike the idea of spending extra minerals and gas for detection. Just admit it. I can understand how u feel. But thats not what Blizzard or me thinkiing.

@Michael Liberty

No matter what, the Overseers will always be useful since they will be the Zerg's mobile detector as well as providing food. The not useful enough means the Overseers deserves better spells to support the Zerg army. So if u were to leave them in its current state, they will still be contributing significantly to the Zerg army. The only question is whether u can be satisfied with it.

@Overmind

It can work both ways. It depends on player skills. That is why I said radar tower isn't necessary useful. It all depends on the player itself. As for me I rather rely on my scouting or spider mines for more map awareness.

A non-Zerg player would not have find much problem with the Overseers. Worse come to worse, their spells may not be satisfactory. For me, the transfusion spell is great. So what I am saying is that as a Zerg player, u surely will be bias on ur favourite race. The most important thing Blizzard should care is to ensure that Zerg would not be immune to cloaked units in SC2 while ensuring that Overseers can do their detecting job well. Other factors such as iconic should be placed at the least consideration.

 

but as he said, its still cost more. You could get a missle turret and 2 marines for only 175 and have about the same amount of protection.

Mines dont come in sc2 until the about the terran late-game, as you need the NightHawk to use them, and they replaced the SV, so, you would already have a mobile detector before mines come into play.

ofc we would dislike having to spend extra, just for a larger target. Why do you think zerg in sc1 rarely ever had any more than 1-2 of thier overlords in the front? Because it is thier largest weakness. Kill it, and you took their supply/detection/transport in one go.

The overseer is now a more expensive supply/detection/transport, so others would love even more to take them out.

As I said, the overseer is the largest/best target for the enemy, so the zerg player woun't want to use these unless they really have to.

Though the overseer has some good abilities, I'm certain they would need to be researched, meaning the zerg player has to invest even more resources to make them useful besides being an expensive detector.

Also, the morph to an overseer costs gas, meaning zerg has to halt or slow production of mutas or hydras/roaches in the early game to create a few overseers, giving the opponent more time to react to any muta, roach, or hydra attack.

 

@EonMaster

1. 2 Marines damage is still inferior to 1 photon canon damage. In fact 2 marines' life is inferior to the photon canon. The only good part is those marines can move. Thats why in my eyes photon canons > missilet turrets. Anyway most of the time the Terrans will mobilize those marines to explore or to attack. Therefore marines as a form of defence is not that reliable.

2. I oredi know that. I am talking abt SC1. But thats good. It proves that in SC2, Terrans should be given exactly the same choice to counter cloaked units in SC1 to suit different players. Ur post did help me to justify why Terrans need to have more choices.

3. Of course we would like to target those overseers or overlords. But it is ur duty to protect them. If they got killed, u got no one else to be blame but urself. If in this current stage the overseers are easily killed and targeted, it means the game is unbalanced. That means either Overseers need more speed or some other part of the zergs need to be buff.

4. Of course. If u need to use them, by all means do so. Ur army is there to help u defend ur overseers. Its just the same as the mothership. Everyone can expect them to be the first target. So I dun get ur point. U just have to be prepared to defend ur overseers from hostile attacks. Failing to do so means it is ur own fault.

Every spells or abilities need to be researched. And its the same for the Terrans. In fact the nighthawk cost more gas and need to have their spells researched too. So ur argument is pointless.

Of coz its true that now u will have to halt some production to morph overseers. But consider that Terrans and Protoss also have to halt productions to build Nighthawks and Observers. In short u are just asking for SC1 Overlords. While it is nothing wrong, its just makes the game so boring. Unfortunately for u, Blizzard seems determined to nerf Overlords anyway.

 

1 cannon: GtG = 20, GtA = 20, cost = 150
1 turret + 2 rines: GtG = 12, GtA = 32, cost = 175

remember though, the cannon has a slower firing cycle than the marine, so the damage delt would be about equal, but with the rines would do a little more damage

and how is the marine not a reliable defence? It has an attack range while other tier 1 units don't(excluding the nulifier, but it needs gas). They're also used against early air units, and add that the marine now has a life upgrade to give them 60 health, meaning mutas won't be as good against them.

why do they need other forms of detection? They have more options than the other races, they have 4: the orbital command, turret, nighthawk, and mine. The other 2 races have only 2 ways, zerg have overseer and spore colony, and protoss have cannon and observer.

we're not always able to defend our overlords/overseers evn if we want to. In sc1, pros still lost overlords, so ofc regular players would. Added to that that hydras lose some of thier GtG capability in sc2, there wont be as many of them to defend the overseers from things like vikings and pheonix. Sure spore colonies work, but your sacrificing economy to make them, which is why I liked it when that was the queen's job to make them.

yes I know, a "i'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" kind of setup, but just like in sc1, losing a few overlords could mean losing the game. Hence why even if you won the battle, if they manage to snipe the overseers with focus fire, you could still lose by being unable to replace your loses in battle.

false, many spellcasters didnt follow this rule. Defiler could use plague and the queen could use infest cc without having to research them. The SV could use defence matrix, while the DA could use maelstorm.

 

@Eonmaster

1. The 2 marines cannot withstand one zealot while the photon canon would be able to. Tats in term of being able to last longer. Also ur 175 minerals oredi exceeds 150 minerals needed for the photon canons. If u multiply them by a bigger numbers the difference 25 minerals can buy u more zealots. Marines usually move around. So not everyone will purposely allow the marines to sit at the base to defend the base. That is why sometimes in pro games, u only see missile turrets in the Terran main base. Usually there are no bunkers. And the defenders in the base are usually units just build from the barracks or factories which were intended to attack. I hope u get my point. In short photon canons > missile turrets even if u add in marines.

2. The choices I mean in in form of early game. That is why I want to move the spider mines from late game to abt middle game in SC2.

3. If overlords are never lost in battle, it means zergs are overpowered. They are not mean to be invincible. Its the same as Protoss losing observers and Terran losing science vessels. And also u should be glad that ur overlords know how to move. I can't move my supply depot or pylon away if they are under fire. Be thankful becoz Overlords can MOVE.

4. If u are complaining abt losing the game due to losing overseers, by all means u have to either give them better protection or u should have spawn more of them. Then if I complain abt losing the game becoz I lost supply depots, wouldn't that make me a fool? In short u only have urself to be blame if ur scenario is right. Or if truly overseers are easily killed, then they need more speed to run. And if the enemy focus fire on harmless overseers, u can also decimate some of his troops. Therefore it's fair.

5. Following the rule of SC1, every caster has 1 free spell. The rest need to be researched. What I am telling u is if Overseers need to research spells, other casters also need. U should be grateful that Overseers cost less gas than nighthawks.