Detectorific?

Discussion in 'StarCraft 2 Strategy Discussion' started by ItzaHexGor, Oct 8, 2008.

Detectorific?

  1. Charmed

    Charmed New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    89
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    6)
    A)
    U better be rite abt the warp in. Anyway I am pointing out to u that dun think depots can effectively block dt rush..It may work in SC1 but mebbe not in SC2..Even then they r a nuisance as I can't attack them and I will have to waste 1 scv and minerals to repair the damage so long it attacks my depots. And dun always think I will have 1-2 chokes all the time...

    B)

    U think and see. Burrowing can save the zerg's troops in case dts attacks without overseers. But if terrans dun have enuf energy for comsat, what can they do? Mostly flee but die!! Siege tanks will be worse off as they will be likely in siege mode and hence can't escape. As for observes, then it's too bad for both Zerg n Terrans..At least the Zergs can force the Protoss to build the observers in order for them to be defeated. But the Protoss dun need observers to compliment dts against Terrans with the exception of Ghosts. Then again if the entire Terran army is slayed except the Ghosts, the Ghosts will be useless....

    C) Attacking without adequate energy especially when turrets need radar towers n the lack of spider mines early games is a big problem! U are asking Protoss payers to harass u with dts! It seems to me u dun bother too much becoz u r NOT a Terran player..In SC1 u r rite becoz there r spider mines. And hence comsat plays a smaller role. But now in SC2 wthout spider mines early game and missile turrets requiring radar towers, comsat will play a bigger role. And the risk is very big as Protoss players can scout ur base and figure out that u r very vulnerable to dt rush...U can ask other Terran players...I m NOT the only one worried abt Terrans being rush by DTs in SC2...

    7)
    A)

    U can keep that as a personal opinion. In fact I aso think u r a very extreme zerg players by worrying that overseers sucks...They dun and while they r no where close to decent, they have their purpose..And those problems can happen in SC2 as the game has yet to be finalize. And in fact I won't be suprise that currently Terrans are the weakest while Protoss r the strongest.. I only wish for SC1 mechanics to be place in SC2 for Terran detection. If u can think that I wanted dts to be useless against Terrans based on SC1, then u can also say Blizz wanted dts to be useless against Terrans in SC1. Basically I m asking back my old things back. And I am posting abt my concerns abt dts raping terrans not abt how I can kill dt with relatively ease.

    B)

    When SC original was release with no dts or no lurkers, building missile turrets early game are a waste of resources especially Protoss but if u want to use it to counter mutalisk then it's fine. I forgot some of the details as I only remembered Brood War things. But basically what I mean is that early game building missile turrets in brood war is kind of wasting resources as u r using it to exclusively counter dts. They serve no other purpose as Scouts sucks and Carriers can smash through missile turrets. Okay fine maybe to prevent reaver drop but goliaths and wraiths can do better job. Its not like Protoss photon canons can only protect u from air units but ground troops as well. I m not complaining. Its just I am highlighting to u Terran's weakness in SC Brood War. Remember to build something exclusively for detection is a loss of efficiency in ur resources. Observers not only can detect but can scout very well as well. Zerg overlords provide food as well as transportation...

    C) in the offensive I prefer spider mines except for the part where Immortals can soak the damage up...Scanner sweeps require energy and other form of detectors do NOT require energy...

    D) U r wrong when previously missile turrets are not passive detectors... To require energy especially early game is a weakness. I prefer observers or overseers as compared to scanner sweep...
     
  2. ItzaHexGor

    ItzaHexGor Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,187
    Likes received:
    21
    Trophy points:
    38
    From:
    Sydney, Australia
    1.
    • Dude, seriously, get over the graphics. I mentioned graphics as one part of all the things wrong with the Overseer and you've almost exclusively focused on it. Yes, this is the strategy section, but that doesn't exclude mentioning other problems.
    • No, the faster you are, the faster you are. The speed of the unit has nothing to do with damage dealt. As for you insisting that they're useful to create Creep runs, I seriously don't get how you can say this is justifiable when you said that building both a Radar Tower and Missile Turret to Detect while on the offensive was not. And please explain what the Zerg player would do in order to achieve this Creep run, just so you can see how infeasible it would be. I'll just go over some key points. Firstly, it means you'd have to get all your Overlords into place before you start the Creep run, which is a significant delay. Secondly, all, or most, of your Overlords would be outside your base, meaning they're there for the pickings. Thirdly, in order to defend them, you'd need units guarding them, so not only is there a huge delay before you start to advance, but half your units are tied up defending Overlords.
    • Yes it's quicker and it's an improvement for the Creep, but it's not at all an improvement for the Overlord. Overlords in StarCraft1 would serve much more of a purpose than Overlords in StarCraft2 do. Again, the problem lies with the Overseer.
    • Concerns for one unit is asking too much? You're concerned about the Radar Towers, Missile Turrets and Spider Mines. As for the Dark Templar cost and build time, why do you assume they're too cheap and built to quickly to begin with? What have you based that on? Just because they haven't specifically announced that they've increased the cost or build time does not mean they're too cheap or built to quick.

      Also, this has very little to do with what I'd said in relation to 1D. If anything, I'm asking the least in 1D, as it already exists with the Overseer, so would just be removing the middle-man.

    2.
    • Such Void Rays, Immortals and Phoenixes are not part of early game, especially if they've teched to Dark Templar rush you, as well.
    • You've still got choices. Radar Towers, Missile Turrets and Scanner Sweep. Keep in mind that it's not as though every game involves being rushed by Dark Templar. You only need a bit of Detection in order to cover yourself and you're set. If you don't like to take risks, then I suggest you stop playing strategic games. Risk is part of the game. There's a risk in performing a Dark Templar rush. There's a risk in performing a Zergling rush. There's a risk in deliberately skipping Detectors in order to tech faster. There's a risk in any tactic. It's part of the strategy and skill of the game. Taking and minimising risks.
    • You most definitely haven't exclusively centred your argument on Dark Templar. You've been going on about Void Rays, Immortals, Phoenixes, Warp Prisms, Observers, etc. If you're talking exclusively about Dark Templar rushes, then you don't even have to consider Void Rays, Immortals, Phoenixes, Warp Prisms, Observers, etc, because they're not at all related to a Dark Templar rush. As for the Scanner Sweep, it's available at the same time as Missile Turrets and Radar Towers so you won't be relying on them. On top of that they start with enough Energy for a Sweep and, provided you don't fool around with them, will most likely have enough for a second if that's your choice of Detection. If it's not, then build Radar Towers and Missile Turrets.
    • I was referring to Observers in 2D and I don't see what the rest of it has to do with what I said there.

    3.
    • Dude... You've got to be joking with me. So you just made up that pro players will be able to know which is the real expansion? Again, that's like predicting where someone is in Hunters. It can't be done so don't say it can be.

    4.
    • Is there a rule about only being able to have one Radar Tower? And why would it be on the front line? Why on Earth wouldn't you have placed the Radar Tower towards the back and had the Missile Turrets at the front line of your defence, so not only do you have Detectors up where it counts, but your Radar Tower would be safe. That's just common sense, like placing melee units in front of ranged units, etc, etc.
    • Well if that's the case then you're comparing a half to a whole, which is absolutely meaningless.
    • Lawl! I laughed so hard reading this. You've gone against everything you've been saying here. Firstly, you're comparing StarCraft1 directly to StarCraft2. Secondly, you're using the same argument that you said was useless, being that it's your own fault if you're playing like that.
    • The point was that it takes far too much set up and, if done your way, the Spore Crawlers would die. The Terran do not have this problem. You'd've still been able to build static Detectors on the offensive.

    5.
    • You're sadly mistaken then. I'd much rather have Medics in StarCraft2 because the Medivac practically makes Reapers useless, not to mention that Reapers are raiders, so should not be dependant on healing, so the Medivac should never have been introduced. Regardless, 'if' still applies to your arguments as well, because you're still saying it should be like StarCraft1.
    • Here's what I said, and yes, it was in this thread, so you should have read it. Even if there were too many to respond to, you should have at least remembered that you'd read it.
    • That's not the case. All the races Detection abilities have to be equal to that of the best Cloaking race. You can't have a progression of increasing or decreasing Detection and Cloaking capabilities for each race, otherwise the race with the best Cloaking would have a significant advantage over the race with the worst Detection. The levels of Detection have to remain roughly constant.
    • For you you're purely basing it on the fact that Protos can permaCloak and mass Cloak. Just because they're able to do that it doesn't mean that they've got the best Cloaking in the game. It's what you're able to do with the Cloaking that matters, and that's where Terran succeed.
    • Well why would you be distributing your forces like that? And especially why would you be doing it if you haven't got the Detection to back it up? Also, if your opponent has three to five bases, it's fairly safe to say that you'll have Nighthawks and a fair few ComSat Stations by then. Also, if you truly are in that situation for some bizarre reason, why would you keep attacking? You should retreat and group up your troops, thus centralising the number of places where you can be attacked by Dark Templar from, hence allowing you to take them out, even if you've only got one ComSat with fifty Energy. Also, think of it from the Protoss' point of view. Why shouldn't they be able to defend against this attack force if you've chosen to split up your forces and not back them up with adequate Detection?
    • Dude, you've seriously gotta decide whether you're talking about being Dark Templar rushed or attacking against Dark Templars. If you're attacking against Dark Templars. make sure you've got fifty Energy in your ComSat beforehand. That's all you're going to need. If you're not to confident in your skills, try for a hundred Energy, just to be on the safe side. It seriously doesn't take long to get that much if you're not wasting it. On top of that, why can't you use the tactic you were always talking about earlier where you build some static Detectors outside of their base? If Zerg players are patient enough to wait for Overseers if they need one while attacking, and Protoss players are patient enough to wait for Observers if they need one while attacking, why can't you be patient enough to save up some Energy in your ComSat? It doesn't even require any teching.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2008
  3. ItzaHexGor

    ItzaHexGor Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,187
    Likes received:
    21
    Trophy points:
    38
    From:
    Sydney, Australia
    6.
    • Understand what it is you're talking about before you start suggesting it. Read up on Warp In. You'll see it's infeasible for a Dark Templar rush.
    • You're talking all over the place here. The point is that you're always picking the units that best fit your scenario but leaving them out in relation to other races.
    • Yes, it is a problem, so why would you do it? It's like complaining about attacking without any Anti-Air attackers when your opponent has Air units. It's your own fault.

      On top of that, I am a Terran player, especially when playing competitively, not that I did very often. I never used Spider Mines as a form of Detection, I didn't even have the need to build Missile Turrets outside their base. The ComSat Station was all you really needed.

      How can Protoss players scout your base if they're Dark Templar rushing?! A Dark Templar rush is something you start from the very start of the game. You tech straight to them and build one as soon as possible. There's no 'checking' if they're vulnerable to one or not. The extent of the 'checking' would be scouting to see where they're located.

    7.
    • You've answered your own question here. They're nowhere near decent. And it's not just be, nor overmind. Read the Zerg Omnidiscussion or threads and other such threads. Zerg players are nearly unanimously opposed to the Overseer.

      If you're not just concerned about how you can kill Dark Templar with relative ease, why are you coming up with these ridiculous scenarios like having consciously chosen to skip building Detectors or distributing your troops across five Protoss bases?
    • This is no longer StarCraft1. Detection is a vital part of the game. Just because they weren't in the original StarCraft it doesn't mean that it's a waste from StarCraft:BroodWar onwards. It's an essential part of defence, and hence, it's not a waste.
    • You don't need a Detector to always be watching over you which is why you do not require that much Energy in order to use a ComSat Station effectively. Requiring Energy doesn't mean it's useless, it just means that you have to use it accordingly.
    • Again, you're just choosing not to.
     
  4. Charmed

    Charmed New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    89
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    B4 I reply I want to make it clear that what I said are worries are rather than actual facts. That means I am not dismissing ur points. Rather I believe those strats can cause imbalance. Yes I might be wrong but I might be rite too. Besides u have no rights to tell me off that Marines will 100% be effective against Immortals until Immortals couldn't perform their task in destroying the radar towers allowing DT to remain undetected. Alot of examples u gave yes it could work technically but is it 100% viable? My fren, I m speculating and so r u....

    1)
    A) Put it this way. I m not interested to discuss abt graphics. I m only interested to discuss abt gameplay.

    B) The damage I am talking abt is not claw damage 7-13. But rather the efefct of Zergs having better bonus on creeps. My fren why r u complaining abt Overlords needing to go there and have units protected? This is part of the game. Its a new strategy. What u complain is equallen of me complaining abt having to build radar towers to enable missile turrets. I m really laghing at u for this point. U talk as if u SEEMS to be against new Ideas. This is part of unit mix. If u say abt delays, I will say there is a wastage of resources getting radar towers. Even if its true that it won't be feasible in SC2, u can request to improve the overlords extension of creep instead of complaining abt Overseers kenot detect and etc. In this case, its clear that u r practicing double standards....What is the problem of even needing to bring those overlords to ur enemies base protected by ur own troops? Seriously....

    C) The new ability itself made overlords improve. Again I find overseers allrite. Just mebbe give them extra abilities. No major problems actually..

    D) Yes u r rite that I shouldn't assume that they r cheap and fast to build. But can u stop me from worrying? Especially when there is a nerf of detection for Terrans in SC2 from SC1. And its not a small nerf. It was a major nerf when missile turrets couldn't detect themselves.I have never said it as facts. I oredi said I am asking questions here only to have answers which made it seems that dts will pose more harm to Terrans in SC2 rather than SC1. The way u talk it seems u want to remove overseers altogether and let overlords have everything...

    2
    A) Whether u like it or not, Immortals r an early game unit. When nullifier had anti-gravity I was evern more worried. But yes I m less worried as it seems Blizz finally understood that it would be imbalanced to introduce such spells early game...

    B) When I am talking abt risk, I am talking abt certain risk...If u scout the Protoss base, and u notice he builds buildings which enable dark templars, are u going to march to the Protoss base blindly without even preparing for any detection at all? IF u r suggesting that I should take the risk and attack blindly in this situation without preparing enuf detection, then obviously u shouldn't be playing strategy games....Its a matter of Terrans's detection vs Dark Templar's cloaking powers. So long as there r no definite answers, how can u expect me not to worry?

    C) My fren there won't be a Protoss player that will only build exclusively only DTs. They will mix them up with other units such as Immortals or Void Rays to make their cloaking strategy more viable..If u r suggesting that there will be only dark templars, then it SEEMS to me u r suggesting that SC is mean to be played by spamming singular units... Which obviously isn't true...In my offensive against the Protoss to get radar towers + missile turrets that can be extremely weak as when one radar towers r gone, all the nearby missile turrets will lose detections...And even then it will cost alot of resources to spam them across the map and the radar towers can be very fragile...

    D) I dun get what u mean by observers in 2D.

    3
    A) I said mebbe. And also since the game isn't out how can u say I m 100% wrong? U should wait for the game to be out b4 firing at me...Besides like I said dun think the radar towers r perfect...And building radar towers whole map can be wasting alot of resources and risk getting attacked....

    4)
    A) When did I say I must build the radar tower front line? Obviously u made that up..And building too many radar towers can be a wastage of funds.. Let's say I build 3 radar towers to allow detection to my nearby missile turets in the same area. Not only I will be wasting resources but that still won't help me if the enemies wanted to smash it up in order for them to block me from detecting...

    B) I didn't say that to back up my arguments. I m only pointing out in my opinion.

    C) Itza, like it or not, I said a million times that I dun mind comparing SC1 to SC2. Its you that is having the problem. And if u wanted things to be exactly like SC1, then u are against ur own principles. I m only pointing out that u r against ur own principles should u made that suggestion. I said those quotes and hence u should trust me that I forward it specifically to u and others who believe in the same principle as u...So STOP misunderstanding me and making a fuss out of it....

    D) U kenot expect Zergs to work like how Terran does. Otherwise SC won't be unique anymore...Anyway like I said u should be focusing ur detection capabilities on the overseers...

    5)

    A) Okay but I think i saw in other threads that u prefer medivacs over medics. Dun let me catch u....

    B) U can't expect me to remember everything.. But then i dun get why r u so persistant in having overlords being detectors..If overseers can do the job fine being a detector, then there is no problem..

    C) U r suggesting that SC should be like WC3 then..Everything equal??? My goodness...This is sc and not warcraft...If that's ur logic, then I think all races should have equal cloaking powers...Won't be the game be boring then? If thats the case SC1 is a big failure in the sense that the Zergs have the best detections. And now u r crying foul over the fact that Blizz took away one of the Zerg's greatest advantage...

    D) Personally I find Protoss cloaking power the best based on that. And u can't tell me I m wrong rite? And in what sense that Terrans r successful in cloaking ? Nuking while cloaking? Wraith owning carriers? Common, the Protoss dark templar can smash ur entire base easily and allowing all Protoss units to cloak except for arbiters/motherships made them very dangerous opponents especially when u combine with recall or statis field...And Ghosts are considered useless units in SC1 plz...

    E)

    It can happen. it might be bizzare but its a new game..And there is absoulely nothing wrong if I want to be able to attack the Protoss from different locations...It doesn't have to be expansions...so plz no nighthawks... Yeah so basically I shouldn't be denied the ability to attack the Protoss from different locations just becoz I do not have enuf energy...U r rite that I should centralize my forces but hey what is wrong if I want to attack them from different angles or locatons? And again the map doesn't have to be hilly or have very few chokes. Also in the Protoss pov, they dun need to use dts exclusively to fend of all my attacks from different location. That is why I always like to rely on mobile detectors as I can mass produce them and send them to anywhere I wish...

    F)

    I m specifically talking abt both offense n defence against dark templars. 50 energy like I mention might not be enuf..And I oredi explain abt the risk of building radar towers not only abt the negative trait but also by taking them out missile turrets would lose detections. I have oredi explain b4 since we are having lack of info, its possible for dt's to move towards to any expansion nearby the Terran base. Once the dark templars are in placed, they can slay all the terran troops outside the main base and starve the Terrans of resources. This way u dun even need to attack the Terran main base and u can achieve victory. I m not saying it will definetely happen but its my worries. Like I said u kenot expect me not to worry...
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2008
  5. Charmed

    Charmed New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    89
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    6)

    A) I know abt warp in plz...And it can save alot of time for Protoss players to warp in dts..In fact quite some time ago, there r ppl complaning abt dts warping in as too powerful..Anyway dun just simply persume that warp in will be useless for dts strategy. It can be more dangerous then what u think..

    B) When u said that u actually have agreed that dts are more dangerous to Terrans rather than Zerg in SC2. Whether it causes imbalances form this aspect, I dunno. But certainly I m not happy and its my right not to be happy...

    C) The problem is not abt whether the Terran player is at fault. Its abt whether the Terran detection early game is sufficient..Comparing it to air units are ridiculous. And by now u should be pointing to me why in SC2 I shouldn't be allowed to have spider mines early game or missile turrets like SC1? Its my preference and u can only point it out that I shouldn't have those if it proves to be imbalancd in SC2. Mebbe u nvr really play against an opponent utlilizing dark templars very well. IMO spider mines are actually the best method of countering dts provided u know where to plant it. Most pro terran players use spider mines especially against Protoss. Scanner sweep should only be use as a last resort...

    My fren, they can always scout u by sending a single probe...They dun need to wait for dts to scout u. Scouting is very important in SC. Dun u agree? So even by teching to dts, u should be consistently scouting ur enemy base...

    7)

    A) Yes but u kenot expect every single zerg units to be decent. As long as it serves it purpose, then there is no problems. For me the only thing overlords or overseers need is the ability to transport. Nothing else..

    Its a new game. U kenot expect it to be always like SC1. Anyway it didn't have to be 5 protoss bases. It could be 5 different batch of Protoss armies. Basically I will react to my opponent's move depending on the circumstances. And I oredi said it might not be economically feasible to spam turrets n radar towers. Also it's risky..

    B) Well for me is a waste... If I can spend 50 minerals to detect and to attack air units wouldn't it be better than spending 50 minerals just to detect? Nevertheless, I am highlighting to u that this is one of the weakness of the Terrans in Brood War. They do not have good immediate detections early game...

    C) Not necessary. I find it better to have mobile detectors rather than scanning all the time... Not only I can easily spam mobile detectors easily to suit the amt I think I require but the energy requirement of the comsat isn't low...

    D) Nope. If the game made it difficult for me to do that, then the game is limiting my choices...

    In conclusion, actually i oredi got what I wanted when Blizz made missile turrets detectors..For me in regards to Terrans, there r no more issues. If u r argung with me are u suggesting that Blizz should nerf missile turrets so that they r equivalant to the Zerg or Protoss? Hence we can stop discussing abt Terrans now that I got what I want and center it primarily to Zergs. It could be Blizz finally understood abt Terran's detections as I highlighted and decided to implement what I have suggested..
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2008
  6. ItzaHexGor

    ItzaHexGor Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,187
    Likes received:
    21
    Trophy points:
    38
    From:
    Sydney, Australia
    You obviously are because after I replied with everything that's wrong about the Overseers, you replied directly to what I'd said about the model. If you're truly only interested in discussing gameplay, go back and reply to everything else I said.

    Dude, just because you've got double standards going doesn't mean I do. With the Radar Tower and Missile Turret, it was essential that they're put together. That's how the mechanics worked. With this, you've proposed an infeasible strategy. It's not essential and isn't about how the mechanics work. Also, you missed what I asked you to do. Explain to me the process required to set up a Creep run. In other words, talk me through what you'd do. You'll find that it will actually slow down the assault and will restrict your number of units. It's not a viable strategy.

    You're so far off the mark here it's almost worth just ignoring it. Yes Overlords can Excrete Creep but that doesn't make up for what they've lost. It's understandable to have their Detecting abilities nerfed, but what Blizzard has done is just ridiculous and excessive. It's not an improvement in the least. Overlords were useful all the time in StarCraft1, now they'll just be lying around your base, and maybe every once in a while used to Excrete Creep, but nothing more than that. There's no improvement here.

    You can worry, but don't say that Dark Templar's cost and build time should be increase, or that they're cheap or built too quickly, or anything like that.

    It was hardly a nerf at all. You could get Missile Turrets with Detection at the same time, and you also get the Sweep at the same time. The only think that's missing is the Spider Mine, and Dark Templar rushes could usually get in before Spider Mines got into play.

    I've never said that I want Overlords to get everything. Again, read what's written. You'll learn a lot that way.

    Immortals are definitely a mid-tech units. They're not early units. You've practically admitted that yourself here. Anti-Gravity should not be introduced in early game, Anti-Gravity is a Phoenix ability and the Phoenix is at the exact same tech as the Immortal.

    On top of that, an attack of both Immortals and Dark Templars is definitely not an early game attack.

    I'm not suggesting that at all. In fact, I'm saying you're an idiot if you take that risk. You're the one saying you won't have enough Energy or whatever to make a successful attack, so why would you?

    Then you're contradicting yourself by talking about Dark Templar rushes. If you're concerned about Dark Templar rushes, then there won't be other units, because that's not what a Dark Templar rush is about. If you're just talking about when Protoss naturally get to Dark Templar, then you definitely shouldn't be worried about Detection. Why? Because it's the Dark Templar rushes that catch you without adequate Detection. If they're just carrying on as normal, then they won't.

    The loss of one Radar Tower would have only meant the loss of Detection if you were foolish enough to only build one Radar Tower. Just like if you were to only build one Bunker or one Missile Turret, then you're not going to have adequate defences. The same goes for Radar Towers.

    See how I've been labelling all my points, just as you've been labelling yours? What you'd said had nothing to do with part D of the second point. Just I've responded to 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, 2A, 2B and 2C already, this point is 2D.

    Well if you have no clue how it can be done, don't assume that it's a problem. Saying that pro players will be able to know which is the right one is exactly like them being able to predict your position in a Hunters game. Radar Towers don't cost a lot, it would give you great coverage of the map and a true warning of when you're being attacked without prematurely giving away your position, you'll be able to judge their forces each time they attack one of them and it will hinder their progress by having to try each one.

    It was clear from what you said that they would have been on the front lines. Immortals can't just walk over Bunkers, Supply Depots and Missile Turrets just to take out Radar Towers. If you've got them on the back line, then they'll be protected both by distance and by your actual defence. Also, I'm not talking about just building three next to each other. Distribution is equally important and wouldn't waste your resources.

    Regardless, in your opinion you're comparing a half to a whole, and if that's the case, I suggest that you acknowledge you were wrong to overmind in regards to what you said about Carriers and Photon Cannons.

    Then why did you use that line against me if you don't mind it?

    It's all related, and I'm not expecting Zerg to work like Terran, I'm pointing out the flaw in your proposal.
     
  7. ItzaHexGor

    ItzaHexGor Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,187
    Likes received:
    21
    Trophy points:
    38
    From:
    Sydney, Australia
    If you can find it, good for you. Regardless, I'm against the Medivac.

    Seeing as you were practically requesting it in each post, I'd've expected you to pay particular attention to it, which you obviously haven't.

    I've already elaborated on why the Overseer is not a good unit at all. It ruins the Overlord, the Nydus Wyrm, has extremely un-Zerg-like and cheesy abilities that clash with its role. So what if it can Detect? Everything else is wrong with it and a lot of its abilities clash with its ability to Detect.

    Equal is competely different to being the same. And yes, all races do need to have the ability to counter the best races Cloaking ability, so in that regard, all races need to have that same level of Detection both for the validity of the Cloaking race and for the security of the Detecting race.

    Again, I'm not at all crying over the loss of the Zerg's greatest advantage. If you'd've actually read my proposals you'll see that in none of them do Zerg have the same advantage as they did in StarCraft1.

    Firstly, permaCloak is no real advantage. Any unit that needs to Cloak, regardless of whether it takes Energy or not, will be Cloaked when they need. The only difference with permaCloak is that they're Cloaked when they don't need as well. With mass Cloak, you've already got the Detection to overcome it.

    No, you aren't denied the ability to, you're just taking a risk. If you don't want to take that risk, then don't take it. If you do, then make sure you're adequately prepared. If you're not adequately prepared, then why shouldn't the Protoss player be able to exploit that lack of preparation? Just because they can technically do without them doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to exploit your own foolishness.

    Well if these are purely your worries, then wait until the game comes out and then complain. I've gone into enough detail about how these worries are practically void, but you're still insisting that 'it could happen'. Yes, it could, but as I've explained there are plenty of ways to overcome it. If you're just worrying and aren't concerned about what's actually being said, then just leave it at that. I don't want to come here just to listen to your irrational worries.

    They're not useless with Dark Templar, they're useless with Dark Templar rushes, which is primarily what you've been concerned about. I've already gone into that anyway. It won't work as you're saying it will.

    When I said what? You're clearly not replying to point 6B so I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to.

    Terran Detection clearly is sufficient. The only thing they're missing and have every been missing is the Spider Mine, and the Spider Mine is no a necessity. Scanner Sweep should be used whenever it's needed to be used. You hardly need more than fifty to dispose of a Dark Templar rush and if there's a larger number of Dark Templar, a hundred will do easily. Seeing as you don't need to use it for any more than that, it's great for Terran Detection. Maybe it's just because you think of and use it as a last resort that you think it's incapable of what it is indeed capable of.

    Yes they can scout, but no Protoss player would decide as of then that they're going to perform a Dark Templar rush. The scouting is purely for locating you, not for judging what tactic to use, especially if that tactic needs to be started right from the get-go.

    'As long as it serves its purpose there is no problem'? That's rich. And it's understandable to hear all that coming for you, a devout Terran player. So long as you've got what you want everything's fine for everyone, yeah? No. The Overseer is not fine. Even if it does serve it's purpose, it doesn't fit in with the Zerg at all, so should be scrapped. If they Zerg had the Mothership, it would still serve its purpose as a Mothership, yeah? Does that mean there's no problem? No.

    Again, that's rich coming from you, wanting all Terran Detection or anything related to Terran Detection to remain the same. And if that's how you react to enemy movements, then you've got more to worry about Terran Detection.

    Why do you assume something that is able to Detect would cost the same as something that can Detect and attack Air targets? Ever heard of balance? It's a vital part of the game. Saying it's a waste is like saying that having to build SCV's is a waste or having to defend is a waste or having to build tech requirements is a waste. It's part of the game.

    You only need Detectors there for long enough to neutralise a Cloaked threat. That's basically the duration of one, two tops, Scanner Sweep, or Sweeps. Once you've wiped them out, you don't need it any more. If you're such a fan of mobile Detectors, then don't play as Terran. The ComSat is part of how they're unique. If every race had a mobile Detector, it would just be lame and static.

    It's not limiting your choices, you're just limiting the ones that you'll choose yourself.

    This thread was never supposed to be about Terran Detection, you just made it one through your narrow, Terran-minded point of view and irrational concerns. If you're going to continue responding in relation to your worries and what 'could' happen, then don't bother. Yes, they're your concerns. Keep them to yourself and prove yourself wrong when the game comes out.
     
  8. Charmed

    Charmed New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    89
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    @Itza

    Based on what Karune says MOST LIKELY missile turrets are detectors passively. So if Blizz has already done that, it is VERY LIKELY that Blizz has seen through my concerns. So if u r saying I m irrational, then u got it wrong..And u have no right to tell me off that I am irrational..If u were specifically talking abt radar towers being front line (how Immortals got there), that is becoz I am talking abt the OFFENSIVE!!!! So no depots and etc plz....U always seems to be talking on the defensive while i have always been talking abt offensive...

    U definetely practice double standards!!! Ur words of overlords needing to extend creeps, need to be protected and slow down the army SHOWS EXACTLY that u wanted overlords to be able to handle everything by themselves..That is where unit mix is important. The game isn't out and now u oredi can tell it won't be 100% viable. My fren, if that is ur opinion dun talk as if it's facts...Sure everything will be slow down...U kenot expect expect everything to be 100% perfect.Otherwise zergs will be close to perfect. In fact creeps planted nearby non-zerg expansions can be damaging in terms of wasting time for enemies to set up new bases. While this extending creep MAY have yet to be viable, they r certain to be opening room for more zerg strategies in the future.. So I suggest intead of grumbling abt what u want, THINK abt what extending creeps can potentially do when SC2 is out...

    Itza, what i said to overmind is clearly abt turrets vs photon canons. The carrier added in there is just to point to him that he shouldn't add the tanks there. Or else we can argue abt it till judgement day...

    Whether dt rush or abt dt mixing with other units, it's still the same. Without spider mines actually it makes ALOT of difference in regards to Terran's detections especially in the offensive. The fact that u dun lay spider mines in SC1 either shows u nvr play T v P b4 or u have nvr play any decent Protoss player b4 with Terrans until u feel that spider mines are absolutely unnecessary...That's why I have always felt that u r not thinking in terms of the Terran view. U can read other ppl's post in this thread to know that I m not the only one who felt that Terran's detections are a problem early game. I dun think I need to point out who...

    Lastly I would like to say is that due to time constraint, I can't reply all ur post. But one thing is u should STOP attacking me personally. Should u wish to discuss with me, plz attack my points instead of me personally...There is absolutely nothing wrong in me expressing my worries. And I also wish I m wrong. Unfortunately I have strong evidence to show the weakness of Terran's detection in the offensive but u choose to dismiss it..If u still think I m illogical or a Terran extremist, keep it to urself....I might even think u r illogical urself after dismissing my concerns with unproven facts..
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2008
  9. ItzaHexGor

    ItzaHexGor Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,187
    Likes received:
    21
    Trophy points:
    38
    From:
    Sydney, Australia
    Whatever, dude. If they're your concerns, fine, I acknowledge that, but that's all. I've already responded to the vast majority of it anyway.

    As for the Overlords tactics, it's nothing like a double standard. I've tried several times to explain that you simply don't understand that it simply would not work as a viable tactic. It would basically be like running two laps of your base before charging in to attack your opponent. It will do nothing but slow you down. What was I was saying was that the tactic you used in StarCraft1 would still be viable. The implementation of the Immortal wouldn't hinder that.

    About adding Carriers, he should have added Siege Tanks because Missile Turrets are only half the equation.

    If I've got to play a supposedly decent Terran versus Protoss game that I've supposedly never played before to supposedly see that Spider Mines are a necessity for Terran Detection, perhaps you've got to play a decent Terran versus Protoss to see that the Scanner Sweep can work just as well. Or, instead of playing a decent opponent, simply become proficient with the Sweep yourself. On top of that, there were plenty of necessities taken out of StarCraft1. I don't see anyone irrationally complaining about them.

    Considering you've been going on about psychic pro players, problems if you want to skip Detection because you consider it a waste of resources, and refusal to prepare for a decent amount of Energy at the ComSat before you attack, yes I would say that a lot of what you've said is very irrational. If you're just here to express your concerns, fine, but if you're here to try and back them up with absolute nonsense, again like Detection not being a necessity and again, psychic pro players, then yes, you're being irrational.
     
  10. EtB513

    EtB513 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    62
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    I didn't bother to read this whole thing so maybe this all got resolved (doesn't look like it on the last page), but imo overloards were detectorific because they were MOBILE and available right from square one.
     
  11. EonMaster

    EonMaster Eeveelution Master

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,154
    Likes received:
    4
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Black City, Unova
    EtB513

    the overlords in sc2 lost thier detection ability, you need to mutate them into overseers to detect, which you can't do until lair is up.

    So if you need detection, instead of just making some overlords like in sc1, in sc2 you also need to spend the extra gas and minerals to mutate them.
     
  12. EtB513

    EtB513 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    62
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    Of course, I was justifying (in my opinion) Blizzards decision to do so in my previous post. Since the OP seemed so against it. The [new] Terran detection doesn't seem all that super anyways, with the turrets no longer having native detection without a radar tower nearby.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2009
  13. freedom23

    freedom23 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,172
    Likes received:
    2
    Trophy points:
    0
    I have to go back 1 page to read that epic discussion about 2 forces that doesnt want to step down... yeah.... we know that essay writing is not everyones cup of tea... maybe some of the members will probably be into blog or media someday... hmmm w.c made me think that being announcer is kinda good too... (lets go korea!! aja!)
     
  14. Charmed

    Charmed New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    89
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    I can understand from a hardcore zerg players' perspective that this is a form of nerf and hence it seems unfair. Furthermore now there is a need for an extra cost for them to produce detectors. Basically in this perspective Blizzard is making Zergs just like the other races. And for me this step is necessary to ensure that Zergs aren't immune to cloaking units. There may be other ways but this seems the best way. Furthermore in SC1, it is pointless for the Overlord to be a detector the moment game starts as there aren't any invisible units in the first few minutes. Let's just hope that the Zerg will have new features that can compensate for the loss of being almost immune to cloaking units in SC1.

    EtB513,

    If I m not mistaken, the latest build make missile turrets able to detect by themselves. Bear in mind SC2 is always subject to changes. Even then, Terran's detection in SC2 won't be as good as SC1 becoz in SC2 the spider mines are created by Nomad which is a high tier unit and also acts as a Terran mobile detector. For me it is pointless to have a mobile detector having another detection spell.

    Personally in early games, I prefer Zerg or Protoss detection capabilities rather than Terrans. But at the end game, no doubt Terrans' detection would be fantastic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2009
  15. ItzaHexGor

    ItzaHexGor Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,187
    Likes received:
    21
    Trophy points:
    38
    From:
    Sydney, Australia
    To be blunt, and no, I don't want to start up this whole conversation again, but that's very rich coming from a guy who thought waiting for fifty Energy at the ComSat or for the construction of the Radar Tower to complete was 'wasting time'.

    And of course they don't need to use the Overlord to Detect right from the very start. That's not an advantage. All races get Detection before they need it. They're obviously not going to make it so that Detection's acquired after Cloaking.

    Lastly, with their current system, Zerg are still going to be practically immune to Cloaking. The mobile and early Detectors known as Spore Crawlers will be just as plentiful and strewn across the Zerg base. I fail to see how however many mobile Spore Crawlers will be any less effective than however many Detector Overlords.

    And again, the problem is with the Overseer, not with the Overlord itself. Zerg players will not mind not being immune to Cloaking, but the Overseer option is not the way to go, especially with its current detrimental model and abilities.
     
  16. Michael_Liberty

    Michael_Liberty New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2009
    Messages:
    132
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Denver
    I think that the overseer is Blizzards response to Terran Missle turrets, you need a radar station to make missle turrets detect, just as you'd need to upgrade overlords to overseers to detect the only problem that I see is that it's still tilted to the Terran favor, the combo of comsat station and radar tower is undeniable. You just scan the area around you, not having to waste scouts if there are enemies present and from that point on you know if enemies are coming at a much faster rate, especially if you have the high ground radar station that the enemy can't see (execpt for some units). The big point in which radar station will come into play at least in my opinion is ghost nuking. It doesn't matter if you know exactly where it is as long as you know it's coming, if you see a unit coming in the fog of war and see nothing come out of it, scan sweep instant detect and a well defended Terran base would be basically impenetrable. With range units like the Thor and Siege tank there is nearly no cracking that shell.
     
  17. Charmed

    Charmed New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    89
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    Itza, of coz I dun wish to argue with u until I need to write essays so long that I need to edit them so that everything fits into one post. However I still wish to point out something..

    Firstly the MAIN issue is NOT wasting time but it REQUIRES time. As I have said million times, I prefer instant and mobile detection rather than waiting for my energy to sufficient b4 I can even dare to launch an attack with a base filled with many dark templars...Hence I will always says Overlords / Observers > Scanner sweep. Maybe u like to waste energy over detection but certainly not me.. As for radar towers I nvr really mean that its wasting time but wasting COST as compared to SC1. And such system makes terran detection weak as one radar tower down, abt 3-4 missile turrets become useless detectors...

    If one wants to spend alot of resources by building spore crawlers so that he can be immune to cloaking units, its fine with me. First it is so slow and can be attack with most basic units unlike flying overlords. Secondly its not necessary to build so many spore crawlers as they dun provide food unlike overlords. In short the real problem is that overlords are not only very good detectors in SC1 but they are too multipurpose. As such they can be spam in a manner which cost is never a consideration as they are just too useful..

    For radar towers, I would like to say its really nothing great to begin with. Sure u can know there is something lurking nearby ur base. But that doesn't mean the enemy is going to attack you. Some players can purposely put some units there just to confuse u...They can just distract you and play some mind games with u...Anyway the radar tower feature only allow u to response faster to enemies' attack but that doesn't mean u will successfully defend ur base...And it comes with a disadvantage which is ur enemy will know ur location. So using radar towers need some consideration too...For me using radar towers against AI would be great but when it comes to player versus player, there is some consideration to be done.
     
  18. 1n5an1ty

    1n5an1ty Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    879
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Reality
    Dectorific...damn u know everyone is leaving protoss out :D
    no but seriously wat about protoss detection?!?! T.T
     
  19. Gasmaskguy

    Gasmaskguy New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2007
    Messages:
    4,071
    Likes received:
    4
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Sweden
    Protoss detection's looking good. The Observer requires one less building now. The Obervatory was scrapped and the Observer upgrades were moved down to the Robotics Support Bay, which also enables the production of said unit.

    The Photon Cannon is slightly more durable 50 - 100 extra shield and hp in total, compared to the one in SC1), which means stationary detection will last just a little longer.
     
  20. ItzaHexGor

    ItzaHexGor Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,187
    Likes received:
    21
    Trophy points:
    38
    From:
    Sydney, Australia
    To reiterate to those joining, this was supposed to be a thread about the Overseer, not the general Detection abilities of all races.

    @ Charmed. Requiring time is only a problem if you've got to wait for it. If you've got to wait for it, it's wasting time. In other words, if it's a problem, it's because it's wasting time. So if you're saying it the problem isn't that it wastes time, then there's no problem with it requiring time.

    As for preferring mobile Detectors, that doesn't equate to anything. Early Detection is still balanced, and Detection is obviously going to vary race to race. If you prefer mobile Detection, that's simply your opinion, and does not make Terran Detection weaker than the others.

    As for the cost and supposed vulnerability of Radar Towers, it's no different to Protoss Pylons or Zerg Creep, only just for Detection. Needing to build something extra doesn't waste resources, as you're reaping the benefits from building it. Saying that needing to build a Radar Tower in order for them to Detect is a waste of resources is like saying that needing to build a Spawning Pool in order to get Zerglings in a waste of resources. It's not a waste.

    Zerg players are naturally going to have a large number of Spore Crawlers defending their base, just as Terran have a large number of Missile Turrets and Protoss have a large number of Photon Cannons. The difference is when they Uproot in order to find something Cloaked, it'll be just like StarCraft1 with the Detecting Overlords again.

    As for Radar Towers being a disadvantage, it would be more disadvantageous and a waste of time for your opponent to set all that up than it would be to you. How does it disadvantage you exactly? It's exactly the same as if they did it in your normal line of sight. No-one does it, and for good reason. It's completely pointless. All the Radar Tower does is extend your sight. I don't see how you can say that's a disadvantage.

    And if it is a disadvantage, Overseers are too, as their line of sight increases while stationary, so it's practically the same situation.