Detectorific?

If I follow you correctly, cloaking can still be plenty effective against terran in SC2 for a few reasons...

First: all that has been said about how potentially difficult or maybe obsolete the use of cloaking units vs a terran opponent, assumes that you are playing a good player, as opposed to a noob. It's up to you to be clever in how you attack... maybe it'll be more important to set up a decoy/distraction force on one side of your opponent's base, or on his expo, while you bring a cloaked force of banshees in the back door of their main to annihilate their main's economy... same might apply if you were protoss facing a good terran opponent. Send a few Immortals with hardened shields in to rush their expo or front of their base and take the initial hits from near-by protecting tanks, with some zealots and/or stalkers as further support for the immortals, then fly in a phase prism in a back corner of their main and drop some dt's as well as deploying the phase prism to create it's power grid and warping in more forces... There are instances where cloaking can and will still be very effect vs even a strong terran player. I definitely agree, however, that overall, attacking an experienced terran's base with cloaked units alone, will generally NOT be a great idea... unless you've managed to scout well and spot an opportune moment.

Second: Having some units that are either cloaked all the time (like Dark Templar) or even units that can cloak on command (like Banshee's or unit's that burrow) mixed in with non-cloaking units make's for an incredibly strong combination while out on the battlefield and away from where base defenses and detectors typically are located... it's up to you as the player to micro your cloaked units wisely. Maneuver them around detectors, obviously as much as possible. If you can't see a detector that's detecting your cloaked units, maybe retreat back to safety and try something else.

It all falls back on you as a player being aware and having good unit control. As obsolete as cloaking might seem vs terran at the moment, cloaking is still an awesome ability none-the-less. Zerg having to upgrade their ovies to overseers, in order to provide detection seems fair. It'll just mean that that is an important thing to do quickly in many instances. It adds an extra layer of difficulty, as now you have to upgrade to get the ability, but it's not really difficult to remember and/or do... but that extra little bit of difficulty to me, just adds to the dynamic of the game...

This may not be the most appropriate place to voice this concern of mine, but I'm going to do it anyway while it's fresh in my head.... It seems from what I've seen recently that the zerg aren't very strong vs toss and terran, specifically early game. That recent game play video we saw with Yellow vs that other guy (forgot who), it was a zerg vs protoss.. anyway, just a few zealots could hold up vs quite a bit more lings now... so my concern is, the more a zerg player has to upgrade certain units to get specific much needed abilities (such as cloak, ovie speed, etc.), the less minerals they'll have to produce enough army to stand up vs their often stronger opponent. Even vs marines or mauraders, reapers, it seems unlikely lings can hold up well... but then they can change into banelings which would definitely help turn the tide, and of course it's still best to have some other types of zerg units to back up the lings.... I don't know, I guess my concern isn't too serious and I do definitely feel that Blizzard has an amazing team of people who are good at figuring the querks out and making sure everything is nicely balanced. The game ain't ready yet, so by the time it is, I imagine things will be pretty darn good overall.

 

Lol, the only detectorific race in sc2 is protoss, u guys keep rambling on about scanner sweep, its not as effective as you say and think, the weeknesses about T detection that Charmed talks about ARE real, so are the weaknesses of Zerg detection.

Its really funny though that none of you care to say nething about how Protoss has the most "detectorific" ability of all races, observers coming late into the game? LOL thats so not true, u dont even require an observatory to build them nemore.. u can get them out so fast.

Im sorry, its just u guys are discussing Terran as having so much detector power and its just not true... the P is where its at when it comes to detection.

 

Oh if what u say is true, then the Protoss indeed not only has the best stealth unit but also the most detectorific race. I do remember in one of the batches where Blizzard did indeed made observers available earlier becoz they felt that the Protoss would need them..Anyway I suspect this is becoz the Protoss r more "polished" and hence currently they seems to be the most powerful race. I hope things will change..

Anyway here r my suggestions on how to rectify both the Terran n Zerg problems regarding this issue. Feel free to criticize:

Protoss

1) Add xxx cost n xxx build time for Dark Templars..

2) Reduce the radius of Mothership's cloaking powers by xxx%

3) Dark Templars moved to 1 tier higher

Terran

1) Hellion to be equipped with spider mines. Spider mines can be replenish by purchasing it from the factories.

2) Scrap radar towers n enable missile turrets to become passive detectors once again.

3) Turn Ghost into a detector unit by passive or giving them a spell which can detects. The reason I choose them is becoz they require intensive gas n hence its hard to spam them.

4) Reduce the energy requirement of scanner sweep by xxx%.

Zerg

1) Allow Zerg Overlords to become passive detectors by upgrading them at lair / hive level.

2) Overseers to be given more special abilities / spells to justify the cost of mutating them from overlords to overseers individually.

3) Turn Queens to become passive detectors or by giving them spells which can detects.

Note:

One nerf can be made each for dts n motherdhip. So its either extra time for dts or they will be push to higher tiers. When dts are being nerf, Terran n Zergs will remain unchanged. If Protoss remain unchanged, both the Terrans n Zerg will have one choice each to improve their detection capabilities. The reason is too many changes r likely to overpower their detection capabilities.

Subsequently if Terran Ghost n Banshee proved to be too powerful, a nerf would be needed..And vice versa for Terrans if Zergs' cloaking units r too powerful. Currently I feel that dark templars r the biggest problem...

Feel free to criticize..

 

DTs are already pretty expsensive, and its like impossible to move them up one tier, theyre already so high in the tier list, requiring cyber core+citadel+archives. Nope, 1 tier more is just ridiculous they are already very high as i said. The DTs are actually perfectly good balanced, if ANY changes should be made to make DTs not ridiculously overpowered in sc2 (and i have no idea if they ARE overpowered or not, as i havent played the game yet), then the changes should be in the direction of improving T n Z detection, not messing up the DTs.

if u move DTs one tier higher they would be like in the mothership tier or something, thats absolutely ridiculous lol, about the mothership cloaking, i dont know, i dont care either, im not even sure people will be using the mothership, if u ask me, fuk the mothership and give us back our nice arbiters.

 

@Itza, Overmind and Charmed: Missile Turrets DO detect.

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=12065088880

 

Nice now that Missile Turrets detects themselves. Perhaps Blizzard finally understood while Terrans seems detectorific, their detection capabilities can be easily nullified by Warp Rays, Immortals or anti - gravity. Even Terran offensive would improve now that they are able to detect without wasting resources to build radar tower which will probably alert ur enemies onto the Terrans' camping base.

For Zergs I have heard that there will be a upgrade in the lair that allows all Overlords to morph to Overseers. So I suppose if these were true, both the Terran and Zerg detection capabilities are deemed to be satisfactory. Unless there are some imbalances regarding cloaking units, I am happy for these changes. Perhaps it would be even better if Blizzard allow spider mines to be available early game.

 

So is it definite that they Detect on their own? Or just that they are Detectors, but they still just need the Radar Tower?

@ Charmed. This thread wasn't about the Terran being Detectorific, it was supposed to be able the Overlords and implementation of the Overseer, which Zerg players are almost uniformly opposed to.

About the Void Rays, Immortals and Anti-Gravity, it's part of the game. Terran can take out Protoss Pylons, Phase Prisms and Photon Cannons just as easily, not to mention that all of those 'problematic' Protoss units are easily taken out by Marines. On top of that, if you either don't have a Nighthawk or don't have sufficient Energy for Scanner Sweeping by the time they've got enough Void Rays, Immortals and Phoenixes to wipe out all your Detectors, then you don't deserve any Detectors.

As for expansions, well. If they haven't found you by then you really shouldn't have to worry about them finding you then. Not to mention that you opponent being able to locate them could just as easily be an advantage, and after they have already found you, it's not giving anything away.

Yes, there is an Overseer upgrade. That's what most Zerg players are opposed to. It's a horrible unit with a horrible model, horrible abilities and horrible mechanics. It doesn't fit in with Zerg at all.

And you can't still be saying that Blizzard should allow Spider Mines to be available earlier. Terran already have the best Detection at this stage, and if Zerg had to get screwed over because using Cloaked units wasn't viable against them, then I don't see why they should make Cloaking not viable against Terran.

 

Itza, u have been complaining abt Terrans being detectorific which I disagree. It might only be true during late game but not early game. As for the implementation of overseers, I dun get why are u all so against it? If u r telling me Overlords should work just like SC1, then I will need to tell u that SC2 is a new game and shouldn't be compared with SC1. This is actually ur opinion not mine. As for the Overseers abilities, well I do find it suck too but hopefully Blizzard can think something better rather than just the changeling and extending creeps. Oh if they do provide extra supplies, the upgrade mght worth the resources.

Itza, rite now the game is still subject to change and considering that most of us haven't have the chance to play the game, one could only speculate. So dun tell ppl like if I dun have enuf energy or no nighthawks, I dun deserve...For all we know is that the game might be imbalanced at the moment. Hence ur argument is ONLY valid if the game is released and proven to be balanced. And even then relying on comsat station just to detect cloaking units is a very dull idea as I have less choice. It can be balanced but the game would be boring for me..

Itza, building radar towers or sensor towers do have its risk. If u build it in the expansion when ur opponent haven't scouted ur expansion, u r actually letting the whole world know u r indeed getting one expansion. Pro players might be able to use that information and harass ur expansion when they might not be able to do so without the radar tower. So its a matter of risk and reward. For me I find them not rewarding enuf in terms of the risk I have.

Itza, actually I find Terrans detection capabilities weak when u need a radar tower to enable detection for missile turrets. Now that it seems that they can detect by themselves, I find it satisfactory. I need u to be clear on this one point which nobody should dispute.

It didn't matter who had the best detection capabilities. It all comes to ur detection capabilities vs ur enemies' cloaking power. What is the use if ur detection capabilities is so powerful but ur opponent's cloaking ability is weak? Or rather wouldn't the game be messed up if ur detection is indeed powerful but ur enemies have great cloaking abilities to overcome ur detectors? This in not WC3 where the units r similar. So u cannot say oh terrans detection are so powerful and zerg one is weak, hence nerf terrans. IMO since Terrans are more vulnerable to DT's hence they r justified to have the best detection. But I dun think they r the best in the early game. In fact I prefer Zerg or Protoss early game mobile detector compare to to comsat station. If I were to follow ur logic, I would think oh Protoss has the best cloaked unit, the dark templar. So now I "want" them to be cloaking by requiring energy. Isn't this exactly the same what u have in mind regarding the races ability to detect?

As for spider mines, I am thinking in terms of countering the Protoss not the Zerg. If it truly made the Zerg mess up, blame the Protoss becoz I find their cloaking powers too great. In fact the idea on relying solely on comsat station to detect for my offensive purpose makes me sick as now the gameplay is now more boring. And its possible for the energy to run dry easily considering that in early game there will be limited comsat station to attached to CCs making the Terrans vulnerable. Also Immortals most probably can soak up spider mines damage like ants bite, so I suppose even spider mines have limited capabilities to detect. Also having the upgrade at lair level is considered fairly early.

In conclusion, I am satisfied if truly missile turrets can detect on their own. Having spider mines early game will be bonus and to help me in my defence. Also luckily the zerg upgrade is not for individual overlords. Hence nice for both races.

 

Why should we be in favour of it? The Overseer has a horrible model and evolves from a unit with a spectacular model. The Overseer has horrible abilities which don't suit at all, one of which has ruined the Nydus Wyrm. The Overseer's mechanics are horribly cheesy, increasing sight radius, but not Detection radius, when it's still, which encourages them to be kept still hence reducing their ability to Detect. They've made Overlords useless meaning that Overlords will now just be huddled away or distributed randomly somewhere throughout in the base. In short, they've ruined the icon that was the Overlord.

As for the 'this isn't StarCraft1' lecture, that's rich coming from you after you've been complaining about the Missile Turret's lack of immediate Detection and while you're still volleying for Spider Mines to be usable earlier in the game. On top of that, I don't want Overlord Detection to work like it did in StarCraft1, which is why I've been proposing other ideas and have created this thread.

Well if I'm wrong in saying that Void Rays, Immortals and Phoenixes won't pose enough of a threat to wipe out your Detectors on the grounds that the game isn't balanced yet, on what grounds are you saying that they will pose enough of a threat? If my argument is only valid if the game is released and balanced, your argument is only valid if the game is released and imbalanced. What's your point?

Not to mention that using the ComSat is probably the least lame Detector, as it's pretty much the only one that's not just passive. Also, you'd have more choice than other races in regards to Detection.

Is there a rule that you have to build it slap-bang in the middle of your expansion? Or that you can only build one? Pro players would most likely build several, each in a different location. Not only then would their opponent have no clue which one is actually making the expansion, but they'd have great coverage of the map and would be aware the instant that their opponent begins to build an expansion at, or near, any of the locations.

So did you think it weak when Protoss players need to build a Pylon in order for to enable Detection via the Photon Cannons? Or did you think it weak when Zerg players need to supply Creep in order to enable Detection via Spore Crawlers?

With all due respect, I have no clue what you're trying to say here. From what I can tell, you're giving a fairly general statement, so how doesn't that apply to your views as well?

How are they more vulnerable than any other team? If anything they're again less vulnerable because they're now able to block off chock points with their Supply Depots, so they'll have more than a fair warning before they're genuinely threatened by them. Observers are brought in later and there's no information on when the Overseer is brought in, and on top of that it sucks as a unit. ComSat comes into play earlier than Observers and most likely Overseers as well, although even if Overseers are earlier, they're a quick and easy target to take out.

I don't know what you're saying about what I had in mind but Dark Templar definitely should not require Energy to Cloak. It would completely break the unit.

Protoss Cloaking powers are definitely not too great. Just because of Dark Templar? It comes in far too late to be too much of a threat and if they do rush you before you've got any Detection, they'll only have about one. Tops. Not to mention that it's supposed to be a viable strategy, so they can't just nerf Dark Templar so much that you'll always have a Detector before they get to you.

Again, the ComSat would make the gameplay more active, not less active, as it's an active Detector.

Just drawing attention to the fact that you've accused me of wanting Overlords to be exactly like they were in StarCraft1, which I don't, while you've been rallying for both the immediate Detection for Missile Turrets, just like they had in StarCraft1, and Spider Mines to come into play earlier, just like they had in StarCraft1.

Also, of course you'd think it's nice for both races if you're only concerned about Terran, which you obviously are seeing as you don't seem to want any race, although Protoss especially, to have any means of defeating them.

 

Actually the model can be change. That isn't the problem. Gameplay should be the centered discussion. Anyway while u r mourning for the loss of Overlord's detection at least Overlords get to extend creeps. And extending creeps will be important since zergs will get a bonus. Actually its just a role reversal. Its just like Ghost who once can counter mechanical units with lockdown now no longer has it but at least now they can own some biological units with snipe. U kenot expect everything to work exactly wat u want.

Okay abt the whole game haven't been release yet and the game might be inbalanced, I am NOT saying u were wrong. It could be true that Marines can get rid of the Void Rays, Immortals n etc without worrying abt Collosus or High templars. My point is that I am expressing my worries. And that by telling me off that if i dun have energy or no nighthawks, i dun deserve detectors is a statement that only could be told when the game is released and proven to be balance. My statements are more of my worries rather than actual facts. U kenot tell ppl not to be worried when the game is yet to be finalized based on the direction of the game.

I dun get what u mean by building several expansions. But yes of coz there will be more than 1 expansions. But I doubt u can build 3-4 expansions at the same time unless u r playing the computers or some noob. My whole point is that building radar towers r risky and may not be rewarding enuf. We will have to test it out when SC2 is released.

I dun find protoss phase cannon weak by requiring pylon and zerg spore colony requirng creep. U must understand that I m comparing in a sense that since SC1 works like dat they can be balanced in SC2. And in fact I find photon canons better than missile turrets in Sc1 becoz they can attack land, air as well as being a detector. No contest at all. And zerg creep is free so i dun see any problem with that. Overall I just want the SC1 mechanics to work in SC2 for Terrans. U may say its a new game but but hey this is my personal wish. U have no right to tell me I should think like u.

Its a general statement yes. If u dun understand, I will explain in a more simple method. Let's say all races have the same strength in detection. But what happens when Terrans are more naturally weaker to dark templar rush compare to other races for some reasons just like in SC1? Then all hell breaks loose as the Protoss can always use this strategy to harass the Terrans until no energy left. In SC1 Terrans detection in early game is all rite due to the fact that missile turrets can detect themselves and there r spider mines as well as comsat. But even then Terrans are most vulnerable to DT's since Zergs have overlords from beginning of the game. And in P vs P games, u can build dts to counter dts. So no issue for Protoss detection.

Yes Terrans now can block the choke with supply depot but then what happens if the map have more then 3 chokes as in an open area? Do u think u can cover all the chokes? It probably only works if there is 1-2 chokes. And also now Protoss players have warp in. By combining them with dts, it can now bypass the supply depot. And also are u sure that Terrans can repair fast enuf to prevent dts from completely destroying the depots? Hence my worries are justified. Anyway now that missile turrets are passive detectors, I dun see any problems currently. And from what I have read, overlords can be upgraded to overseers in lair level. For me that is pretty early unless u can prove that zergs will have problem attacking protoss base with dts. Then again zergs can always burrow their units b4 the dts kill them. And while burrowing they can wait for other reinforcements including overseers.

Protoss cloaking is very powerful. Its not only becoz of dark templar's permanant invisibility but also becoz of Mothership being able to cloak other units nearby her. Just like in SC1, Protoss cloaking is most powerful due to dts + arbiters. Its ur speculation that only 1 will pop out before I can have have proper detection without ignoring other necessities. But hey even 1 can give me alot of problems. They can either kill my scv, destroy my depot or destroy all my preparations for having detectors b4 more dts will follow suit. Yes comsat will make the game more active but the LACK of turrets with passive detectors n LACK of spider mines will make it much boring. My point is that Terrans shouldn't be relying too much on comsat to detect units in its offensive against Protoss.

Actually I only say IF u want to make overlords like SC1. U may think I m accusing u but my point is that I am asking u what on earth u want if u dun want to morph overlords to overseers??? Yes I am rooting for missile turrets with passive detectors which apparently Blizz approve and also rootting for spider mines. But my pov is that its okay to have some basic elements in SC1 into SC2 in order to ensure that not only the game is balance but also enjoyable n filled with more choices.

Yes I am a more focused in Terrans compare to other races. But u can't say that I m only concerned with Terrans only. I am also in the opinion that overlords should have transportation abilities as I felt that nydus worms are insufficient to provide transportation for zerg troops. Its just that I never express it out since it's all abt detectors here. Also plz dun accuse me of saying that I dun want Protoss to have any means of defeating Terrans. Firstly Protoss do not need to rely exclusively on dts to defeat Terrans. And also with only comsat station available early game as a means of detection will make it even more difficult for Terrans to expose dts as compared to SC1. There is absolutely nothing wrong if wanted SC2 to be like SC1 in certain aspects. Like I say I m expressing my worries rather than actual facts. If u have concrete evidence, it can lessen my fears.

 

Yes, the model can change, but nothing has been said in regards to the change, and you can't dismiss the importance of the model. Remember the outcry when the first renders of the Siege Tank were seen? People still hate the Infester based on it looking awful, and I remember back when the first shots of the Lurker were revealed, people would have rather have it scrapped and replaced with a completely new unit than have it keep its model.

Besides the model, there are still all the other issues. Its abilities are cheesy and un-Zerg-like, encouraging them to be kept still, and in keeping them still their Detection capabilities are reduced. It's ruined the Nydus Wyrm and made the Overlords, including the Overlord's Excrete Creep ability by taking away its primary use of being able to spawn Nydus Wyrms through them, useless.

As for the Creep bonus, it's a speed bonus, so unless you're planning to set up a Creep run before or as you're charging your enemies through, it really won't help, and if you are, it would just slow you down. I don't see how it's a role reversal. It's not like the Ghost at all.

As for not being able to expect everything to work just the way I want it, again, that's rich coming from you. In short, even with gameplay at the centre of the discussion, the Overseer is a terrible unit, has made the Overlord useless and hence destroyed an iconic Zerg unit.

Ok, granted, but logically and judging by everything we know at the moment, Immortals, Warp Rays and Phoenixes should not pose such a major threat to your Detection as a Terran player. They just wouldn't be able to get that much so quickly without you having adequate defences, especially seeing as they're all siege-type units. I get that you could be concerned, but you'd be too sufficient to have them take out all your Detectors, which is against another huge advantage of the Scanner Sweep, as it can come from anywhere.

Not several expansions, several Radar Towers. They could be getting signals from anywhere on the map and there'd be no way to tell which is the right one. Not only would it mean that your Radar Tower would be functioning with minimal risk, but you would have great coverage of the map, your opponent's movements and an extremely significant distraction.

The problem with the Photon Cannons is that simply taking out a couple of Pylons can render them completely useless. At least with the Terran in StarCraft2 if they wiped out your Radar Towers your Missile Turrets would still function and you'd still have temporary backup Detection. As for the Zerg Crawlers, they require a heck of a lot more set up than simply building Radar Tower with a Missile Turret anywhere you please. Firstly you'd have to either expand the Creep by placing Creep Tumour after Creep Tumour in order to advance to where you want or build a brand new Hatchery, which is both cost ineffective and impractical. Although Excreting Creep and building a Spore Crawler initially looks simplistic, it involves having a Lair and using a Drone, for the Crawler itself, Overlord, for the Creep, and the Queen, to build a Creep Tumour. Compared to the Terran, they'd need one, or two if you need it done quickly, SCV, or SVC's.

As for StarCraft1 mechanics in StarCraft2, I'll quote exactly what you'd said to me:

If all races had the same strength in Detection... How would one race be weaker against Cloaked units than another? If you're Dark Templar rushed... You need one Scanner Sweep, tops, to get rid of the threat, so there's no 'running out' of Energy. The Zerg will be completely different in StarCraft2 because they won't have full Detection coverage right from early on, so why should Terran? As for Protoss, Dark Templar don't counter Dark Templar. Terran are not the most vulnerable race, so why should they have two forms of static Detectors, the ComSat Station and Spider Mines?

Obviously the Terran player can't cover all chockpoints if there are too many, but you're seldom located on open ground. Besides, it's just yet another example of the Terran's ability to nullify a Dark Templar rush. A Protoss player wouldn't be able to bypass Supply Depots with Warp In in order to complete a Dark Templar rush. About the Dark Templar getting through the Supply Depot, even if SCV's can't repair fast enough, even if they're unable to block it off again by building more Supply Depots behind them, they'll have enough time to prepare. If you haven't got a Missile Turret or/with a Radar Tower, you'll have time. If you haven't upgraded a ComSat Station, you'll have time. Knowing you're being Dark Templar rushed before the Dark Templar can even do anything decent is huge advantage. Basically, you either know it's there before it's even gotten through the defences for your base, or you know when you see it inside your base. Which option would you rather have?

Besides, that's just yet another example on top of what the Terran already have at their disposal, so if you're unable to block the coke points, you haven't lost anything.

As for Burrowing Zerg units, how's that going to help? If you're on the offensive, they're just going to build another Photon Cannon. If you're on the defensive, then they're just going to go for your Drone, or if you've Burrowed them as well hence cutting off your economic supply line, they'll go for your buildings. If you don't see this as an issue but you saw Dark Templar rushes against the Terran as an issue, then you're seriously looking at this through a strictly Terran point of view.

Arbiters pose more of a problem in regards to Cloaking than Motherships do, and Arbiters were seldom used in StarCraft1. Not only is the Mothership later, but it costs a stack load. Again, it comes into play at the very latest stage of the game, so you'll have everything that Terran Detection has to offer. That's enough ComSats with sufficient Energy, Radar Towers, Missile Turrets, Spider Mines and mobile Detectors.

About the Dark Templar rush specifically, they'll rush you with one. The idea of the Dark Templar rush is to get into their base, Cloaked and unDetected, as quickly as possible. If they stop to build up a small force of Dark Templar, they're going to miss that opportunity. Yes one can be a hugely significant problem, but it's supposed to be. What kind of a game would it be if no tactic was a potential problem to the one it's being used against?

As for not having proper Detection because you needed other necessities, firstly, what other necessities are you referring to? And secondly, it would be your choice to have not built any Detectors. You'd have to have chosen to build other stuff over building Detectors, which leaves you at risk of being rushed by Dark Templar. It's just like any tactic. If you're planning on doing something specific, then you leave yourself open to something else. Besides, if you've got all these other 'necessities' to build, who's to say you'll have time to deploy Spider Mines or build a passive Detector? The obvious answer is you'll build them as quickly as possible, so why doesn't that apply to what you've already got at your disposal?

Again, the Terran aren't relying on the ComSat. It's a supplement to their Detection capabilities. A lack of things from StarCraft1 doesn't mean the game will be boring, as it will be replaced with stuff from StarCraft2.

 

So what if you said 'if'? The exact same point still applies to you. I've already elaborated on possibilities, some being specific Detection upgrades, some being a much later tiered but universal upgrade, one being that Overlords supply a lot more Control, though obviously cost a lot more but being much more durable, meaning that you won't have them coming out your ears, perhaps even changing what it is that provides the Zerg with Control, which could be linked to the implementation of the new Queen, allowing Overlords to be more specialised for Detection and transportation, or even, seeing as the Zerg's a definite swarming race, implementing a new system that's different to that of the Terran and Protoss.

And again, regardless of whether you said 'if' or not, the same point still applies. StarCraft2 is a new game and shouldn't be compared with StarCraft1.

Well you seem to think that the Overseer is a pretty decent unit, and it's completely messed up both the Overlord and the Nydus Wyrm, overall meaning that it's messed up the whole of Zerg transportation. Seeing as the Overseer also directly relates to Detection, I'd say it's still a valid issue.

Well you are wanting to remove any chance of being Dark Templar rushed, so why stop there? Protoss may not have to rely exclusively on Dark Templar to defeat Terran, but if they choose to Dark Templar rush then they will. Dark Templar rushing is a completely viable tactic for the Protoss, as it's designed to be a completely viable tactics. It's a choice. You said yourself earlier that choice is what makes the game fun and interesting.

Saying stuff like 'but I might not have any Detectors by that stage' is next to meaningless. It's like saying in regards to a Zergling rush that you might not have any defence yet, or, in regards to an Air rush, that you haven't got any Anti-Air yet. It's a viable tactic. Just saying that you might not have Detectors because you've chosen to build other 'necessities' over Detectors doesn't mean that there's a problem.

Lastly, Terran don't only have the ComSat available in early game. They've got Missile Turrets and Radar Towers available at the exact same time.

 

1) Well Itza yes its true that the siege tank's model sucks to the max but remember we r discussing in a strategy forum not a general discussion forum. So I really fail to see what is the artistic model of the Overseer has to do with Overseers being "sucks". Extending creeps can be good as now u will be able to extend ur base defences making zerg troops alot stronger at home. And if the creep do extend to nearby or the exact position of the enemies base, Zerg troops would be alot stronger. Besides that if I m not mistaken the creeps can also damage enemies' building. I would say its a role reversal becoz now that Overlords lost detection capabilities, they gain the ability to extend creep. Indirectly Blizz has made Zerg more unique by making creeps more important through Overlords. Personally I dun find Overseers terrible unit but rather just a so-so unit. In fact I prefer it to have better abilities/spells to make it more unique. But to say Overseers as a terrible unit, its abit too much. At least now they provide more food compare to Overlords.

2) U better be rite abt Immortals/ Void Rays/ Phoenix would not be a major threat to Terran detection. Since the game hasn't been finalized, I could not simply rule out that they would not pose any major threats to Terrans' detections. Sometimes its not just dark templars problems. Its when u mixed some combination together that made Protoss cloaking powers too powerful. And while scanner sweep can detect anywhere, it is still limited to energy. Worse of all in early game there wouldn't be enuf CC's to attach them with comsat station. Seriously scanner sweep are only good late game when u have many expansions and hence alot of energy to detect. In fact in early game I prefer observers as detectors becoz they r mobile, permanant cloaking and as long as they are alive, I can detect as long as I wish...

3) Even if multiple radar towers can make ppl confuse, bear in mind that pro players might be able to see through and make use of the vital information. Amateur players might not be able to do so but dun forget that its possible for a very brilliant player to figure out which is the correct signal. We will have to wait for SC2 to ascertain whether radar towers gives more reward or poses more risk.

4) Actually it can be tough to take out those pylons also since they can be defended by mobile phase canons and some other units. In fact now that warp in is available, destroying pylons to disable phase canons can be a difficult task. The fact that they can attack ground as compared to missile turrets made them much stronger defence. B4 Blizz made the changes regarding missile turrets becoming passive detectors, yes taking out radar towers will still allow the missile turrets to attack air. However when the radar towers r gone, cloaking units can do extensive damage becoz not only one but several missile turrets lost their detection capabilities. So its a matter of cloaking units can take advantage not abt being unable to attack air units. As for Zerg, u will have overseers to detect for u anywhere on the map. So I dun see why u want to bother building creep tumors n etc. Just use the overseers especially now they r available in the lair level.

5) Bear in mind that personally I dun mind having SC1 mechanic in SC2. Its u that is having a problem with that. Thats why I said if u wanted overlords to be like SC1, u r contradicting urself. Note I say IF becoz I have no idea what u want regarding Zergs' detections.

If all races have the same detection strength, is it compulsory for all races to have the same strength in regards to cloaking abilities? So if T=Z=P for detection strength but for cloaking capabilities is P>Z>T, wouldn't it be that the Protoss would be able to harass Terrans with cloaking units better than Terran harrasing Protoss units with cloaking units?It could possibily cause imbalances to occur. That is why I say the strength of the race detection capabilities must be matched by how strong the opposing enemies cloaking units. Itza, its possible for dts to harass Terrans at different location at the same time, so therefore the wastage of energy can happen. Terrans won't have full detection coverage especially with Nighthawks being a late game unit. Even if spider mines r implemented, they could be easily countered by Immortals that can soak alot of damage. Zergs will have overseers during lair level and so by then they would have full coverage. What I mean abt DT vs DT for Protoss games is that if u rush me with dts, so can I rush u with DT's. If u look at SC1, its very clear that Terrans r most vulnerable to DTs. With nerfs implemented in SC2, it could possibily be worse.

6) Warp in actually can save the DT's time of travelling all the way from the Protoss base to the Terran's base. So with pylon power nearby the Terran base, ist possible for them to rush u with dts b4 u know it. U can say its the Terrans fault for not being aware of it but sometimes u must admit that by not detecting it sometimes involves luck. Besides the phase prism can help dts to bypass the supply depots and hence depots serve little purpose to stop dt rush. If the radar towers do detects cloaking units within the fog of war bear in mind it doesn't have to be dts. It could be observers lurking around. Hence while radar tower do have its purpose, it could not help me to kill those dts like spider mines. So it might be good defensively but I m more concern abt offence. It can't really help much in an offence. In fact it might expose me to more risk of getting attacked.

On the offensive without enuf energy to sweep, the Terrans can be slayed by Dts outside their main base. But at least Zergs can survive without Overseers by burrowing their units. At least this way Zergs can protect their units without the need of Overseers. But without comsats can the Terran protect their units? Mebbe only Ghosts can do that..Hence I m looking at the universal view as Terrans cannot survive but Zerg can survive. So dun say I only cared abt Terrans.

7) I m not saying that Arbiters or Motherships could pose big problems for Terrans. But my point is that Protoss cloaking powers are very powerful becoz they can basically cloak all Protoss units except themselves.

Itza, u seems to think that I insist in making DT's useless against Terrans. Hell no. Look at SC1 where spider mines are in early game and missile turrets are passive detectors. Are u telling me DT rush in SC1 against Terrans are completely useless? I just want these few ideas being implemented again in SC2. If in SC1 nobody complained, why should one complain in SC2 abt DTs being useless against Terrans when the same mechanic is used in SC1? Its okay if u want to say its boring and its a new game. But saying that I want dts to be useless against Terrans based on what I propose from SC1 is illogical.

I am saying that in order to counter DT's, Terrans should not be depleted in resources in order to build necessities like factories or others to continue teching in the game. If becoz of DT's I have to spend so much of resources n wasting my time to develop my tech, Dts are not only damaging in terms of damage but slowing down my progress. Think in original SC where there r no lurkers or dts. Suddenly in brood war they exist and now I have to waste resources to build the unnecessary missile turrets. But luckily I still have vultures for spider mines.

For me the game would be boring if I have to rely solely on comsat station to detect dts especially on the offensive. U shouldn't tell me I should be happy to use only scanner sweep. If I can't attack with decent detection, then I m bound to lose the game..becoz if u can't attack but turtle in the base, how u want to win?

 

you are mistaken, that has been removed.

30% speed bonus is not a lot stronger and providing you have any anti-air at all overlords will not last long enough to excrete much creep.

what is extending creeps main use? building defensive buildings near an enemy base. Both terran and protoss can do that with relative ease. Expanding creep does not make zerg more unique, if anything it makes them more uniform.

Zerg players almost unanimously hate the overseer, its concepts and abilities are not zergish at all. Staying still to increase LOS is a bad concept for a zerg unit, it would fit better with protoss. When you approach a zerg base you expect to see overlords swarming over the base, making it feel alive with activity, not a few blimps tethered to the ground in the corners.

oh, i see, we can not rule out blizzard replacing terran with squirrels that go by the name of squek, or the viking having a model change to a super dog, or sc2 being cancelled altogether or...
We are going by what we have seen in gameplay videos or heard from karune, while you persist with 'anything is possible' we are making educated guesses and presenting our information off that.

 

first time i've been over character limit...i hope your happy...

so the protoss player is getting dozens of dark templars before you have radar towers?
Tech to starport if you can and get banshees and nighthawks to kill them, if you don't have the resources, They are a hacker, or you are a complete noob.

How are they most vunerable? seriously, why are terran more vunerable than protoss or zerg against cloaked units?

How is dropping dark templars near your base with phase prisms any different than using shuttles in SC? The warp in itself has a large cooldown and will likely only be useful for emergencies.

See, the thing about DT rushing is it is meant to catch you without adequate attention, by the time they tech to DTs and phase prisms you should have enough detection, if you don't it is your fault, a noob terran player should not be able to beat a decent protoss player no matter what.

Usually DTs won't patrol outside your base and observers won't be gathering. It also doesn't seem like much risk to build a radar tower right near the enemy base right before you attack to have somewhere to fall back on, assuming you aren't spending ages pooling your men.

You can scanner sweep, and don't say 'not enuff energy' because you should have enough before you attack, its your fault if you attack without energy in your comsat

Those are extremely late game, you must have detection by them, seriously.

So Starcraft1 was perfect right? then why are you so persistant in your belief that zerg should be nerfed?

 

@Overmind

1) Okay fine if damaging buildings with creep has been removed, there is still a speed bonus. Overmind are u mad? 30% speed bonus is alot of difference especially when u give to melee units like zerglings or ultralisks? What do u want? 100% or 1000% speed bonus on creep b4 u r satisfied? Or do u need to add in 1000% attack speed as well until u all r satisfied? 30% will make alot of difference and abt the anti-air unit u should mix overlords with mutalisks,hydralisks and etc to extend the creep should u choose to do so. If u expect overlords to get the job done without inteference all the time, wouldn't it be too much? Its all abt unit mix which will get ur creep to be a viable strategy..

While extending creep gives Zerg speed bonus, they r very damaging to Terran n Protoss players. Now that Zerg can relatively extend creeps much more efficient than in SC1, they can use those creeps to deny or at least waste both the Terran n Protoss time in setting up expansions. Such actions can be damaging to non-zerg payers as if u can't expand, how do u want to win the game?

All I can say abt u all zerg players is that u all have not get use to the new concept of overseers and abt extending creep. Seriously extending creep is a good idea and ability itself. Of coz previously in SC1, Overlords r much better but then that makes Zerg almost immune to cloaked units. So now in SC2 u actually get a new unit besides overseers. Sure its abilities suck at the moment but overall overseers are a nice concept. Basically getting a detector at lair level is quite early enuf. U should post some threat of cloaking unis against zergs instead of just screaming u want overseers/overlords to be more powerful...

2) I didn't say u are not allowed to make educated guess. Its just that while u may think Immortals/Void Ray/ Phoenix are not threatening to Terran detection, I beg to differ. The whole point is that u kenot tell me off not to be worried abt all those...becoz my judgement is that the mixture of those units with dts can possibily bring down Terran detection fairly easy. Nobody knows the final stage atm including Blizz so basically dun impose ur beliefs on me! And u can stop insulting me abt super dogs and SC2 being cancelled. Irrelevant to the discussion.

While u may think observers r in the same tier as science vessels, u must think properly...Who is likely to get their mobile detector faster? Protoss or Terrans? Obviously Protoss..For Terrans u need to get all buildings to basically tech to science facility just to produce science vessels. Protoss just need robotic facility + null circuit from SC1. So in fact observers can be brought to the game erlier. Plus they r permanently cloaked and so they make better detectors n scout compare to science vessel. Not to mention science vessel cost a bomb when it comes to vespene.

3) Abts the radar towers like I said its possible for the pros to figure out considering they will have alot of exp and somehow they r more brilliant than amateurs. Basically the game hasn't ben released yet and hence any bugs have yet to be reported. Dun underestimate ur opponents in their ability to detect ur expansion based on the radar towers negative traits.

4) Yes I can protect the radar towers + missile turrets with other units but anti gravity can instantly take away my radar towers without even bothering to engage my forces. And Immortals can soak alot of damage becoz they r such powerful tanks. And lastly void rays has proven to be every effective against building. Basically its possible for them to force fire on the radar towers long enuf to survive my marines assault allowing dts to rule the world unchallenged.

U think siege tanks + missile turrets are more powefrful than phase canons. But I think Carriers + phase canons > siege tank + missile turrets. Why bring the tank inside the equation? I m comparing turrets and canons.

Overmind, i have never ever talk abt defences. I have always been talking on the OFFENSIVE as in I build radar towers + missile turrets nearby the Protoss base for detection against dts. Basically scanner sweep cost alot of energy per sweep and hence I canot rely it for detection 24/7 in my offensive. Thats why I would need some radar towers + missile turrets for support in my offence. And also by just taking out the silly radar tower will disbable my detection so easily that its not even funny that the dts can smash the Terran player up.

Overmind by just taking out the radar tower, u basically take out Terrans detections. And while marines r supposingly good against Immortals, they will take some time to kill the Immortals.

Why r u complaining abt needing to sacrifice drones to maintain creeps? All the while in SC1 it has always been abt sacrificing drones to build structures. What is it got to do with me losing scv? Basically maintaning the creeps is more of a personal problem rather than the gameplay issue. Unless u can point out how imbalance it could possibily be...

5) Overmind there is a possibility that an upgrade for Overlords to detects can still cause Zerg players to be basically immune to cloaking units. And besides the overseers upgrade from overlords are at lair level which is abt time Ghost and DTs will be available. In fact I doubt Ghost can have enuf energy to cloak early game even if they can cloak early game. So instead of just screaming u want overlords to be like this and that, u should point out abt how dangerous cloaking units against zerg if overlords couldn't detect. U didn't while I pointed out clearly that Terrans can run out of energy and by destroying single radar towers, cloaking units will run rampant. In fact with this lair upgrade u will have tons of overseers as ur detectors whole map. I dun see what is the problem. Besides now that Blizz grant me my wish of missile turrets being detectors themselves, I no longer have any problems or worries. But as a bonus, I wish spider mines to be available early game not just for detections but for additional defence.

Abt P>Z>T in cloaking abilities, I was giving an example to Itza abt why the strength of the race detection capabilities must be matched by enemies cloaking units..So I didn't mean it to be true..I agree with u that Terran cloaking power own the zerg. But I still feel that Protoss are most superior in cloaking..Not only do dts and observers r permanantly cloaked but dts damage are much higher then Ghosts. By limiting them to energy they can't do much damage as compared to dts. Besides that motherships can cloak not only Protoss units but buildings as well. See how powerful Protoss cloaking is. And lastly banshees are heavy in gas and zerg players can expect to deal with them very late in the game.

Overmind, dun say things like they r hackers or I m a complete noob. Becoz the game has yet to be released, u kenot impose ur believe on me. Nothing wrong with what u think.Its just that I disagree with this method as it sounds silly to me. To get nighthawks and banshees it will cost a lot of gas. And do u think it surely will be viable in SC2? If thats the case, I would have build BCs and SVs to counter dark templars in SC1 which obviously no sane Terran players would do that. My point is while it might be sound idea, it can also be a bad choice. Waiting for Blizz to release the game. Anyway its possible for u to do that. It probably can keep dts to be useless. But u forgot one thing. U just have damage ur own economy. So now all the Protoss player has to do is to get void rays or stalkers or phoenix with observers to own ur banshee + nighthawk combo.

 

6) Abt warp in, I am actually pointing out supply depots may not help much. So by passing over them, supply depots may not be viable counter against dts.

U should stop saying that by the time dts and phase prism are available, I will surely have adequate detections. Dun say as if its a fact but rather a judgement/ opinion. The things is yes alrite I can get adequate detection by that time..But at what cost? Wasting all my resources to counter dts and slowing down my teching ability...That way dts won't kill me but still cause me the game as they are useful to slow down my progress in teching...

U also know how to say usually...For me its possible..These signals at time can be misleading and can confuse me in regards of dts or observers...My point is that radar towers isn't anything like spider mine that can help me to kill off dts.

Wats wrong when it comes to no energy? Its all abt the dts forcing u to use many sweeps. If u expect the Terran player to attack only when there is plenty of energy, I suppose the Terran players would still lose becoz by allowing the Protoss to expand and attack ur base, Terrans are at a higher risk of losing the game..

7) Like I said I only centered my "problems' with dts not arbiters or motherships. I m only highlighting to all imo Protoss r more superior when it comes to cloaking...

I am persistent to nerf Zerg's detection becoz in SC1 their detection is too powerful. U have to admit that having overlords the entire map made it so difficult for cloaking units to be viable against Zergs. Therefore by nerfing overlords detections, they gave overlords the ability to extend creeps in SC2. U lose something but u gain something. Of coz whether they have adequate ablities to compensate for their loss of detection is another matter. The fact is Blizz is in the right direction of nerfing overlords detctions in SC1.

Excuse me Overmind, when spider mine were available early game and missile turrets were passive detectors in SC1, I still need to pay attention ..Are u suggesting that a pro Terran player can sit back n relax (no need to pay attention) but just simply building missile turrets or placing spider mines?? My whole point abt boring is in regards to having less CHOICES. Not abt having an easier method to kill of dts. If what u say is true then SC1 is in a complete mess. Which proven not to be true.. All I can say is that if u call me an extreme Terran player, I would say u r an extreme Zerg player..

Teching to nighthawks are only for late game. In early game b4 blizz allowed turrets to detect by themselves, I only have comsat as a choice in my offensive...

 

You've obviously got a lot on your plate already, so I'll be as brief as possible.

EDIT: This is replying to your reply to me, not your reply you posted to overmind right then.

1.

• Since when have I only said that the model is the only problem with the Overseer? It has got an awful model, but that's just one point. It also has extremely un-Zerg-like abilities, cheesy mechanics that discourage its Detection capabilities, and ruins the functionality of the Overlord and Nydus Wyrm.
• Creep doesn't make Zerg stronger, it makes them faster, and the set up involved with using Overlords to Excrete a path of Creep to speed up your attacks will overall slow you down. On top of that it would also require having all, or at least a heck of a lot of, your Overlords out in the open and undefended.
• Creep no longer damages enemy buildings, but Zerg buildings that aren't surrounded by Creep are damaged, meaning that a heck of a lot more cost and set up has to go into extending the Creep further.
• The increased Control for Overseers would be much better suited for Overlords, meaning you don't need as many, meaning that you won't have as many as you would have in StarCraft1.

2.

• Just think about it. Do you honestly think that, at such a late stage in the game, your opponent will be able to bring in enough Void Rays, Immortals and Phoenixes to take out all your Detectors, keeping in mind that that includes Nighthawks, Spider Mines and other ComSat Stations you've deployed or have in other expansions or bases, for long enough to be able to overrun you with Dark Templar?
  [*[Worrying about something like that is like, in StarCraft1, worrying that Zerg will have enough Guardians, Ultralisks and Queens to be able to take out all your Detectors and then overrun you with Lurkers. It's simply not at all even a remotely likely situation.
• ComSat are still extremely good in early game, and can save you both a heck of a lot of time as well as a lot of Detection troubles when you're on the offensive. Scanner Sweep lasts a fair while, and you don't need long to take out any Dark Templar. If you've chosen to attack while your ComSat doesn't have enough Energy to Sweep, then it's like attacking without any Anti-Air support. You've made the choice to attack without Detection or Anti-Air support, so you've obviously consciously chosen to take the risk.
• About Scanner Sweep only being good late game, if you've said that yourself, how come you're still worried about being overrun by Immortals, Void Rays, Phoenixes or a Cloak Fielding Mothership? All that would be occuring late game.
• The key words in regard to the Overserver are 'as long as they're alive'. They're easily Detectable and are easily taken out. That's not the case with the ComSat. On top of that, they're only useful for a short duration of the battle, so you hardly need more than one, or possibly two, Sweeps anyway.

3.

• How would pro players be able to see through it? If there are several points randomly located on the map, how are you going to be able to know which one is marking the real expansion? How would brilliant players be able to know?

4.

• Well if you know that Pylons are well protected, why do you assume that your Missile Turrets and Radar Towers won't be? On top of that, Photon Cannons are no longer mobile.
• So what if Photon Cannons can attack Ground as well? Siege Tanks are Anti-Ground specialists and on top of that you're going to have Bunkers, aren't you? I don't get how you're saying that it's so hard to take out Pylons but it'll be so easy for Terran's Radar Towers to be taken out.
• Overseers can't Detect anywhere on the map. Saying that is like saying Mutalisks can attack anywhere on the map. They can't. On top of that, Overseer are an easy, and high priority, target for enemies to take out, and not just because they're Detectors. Killing an Overseer means killing a Detector, Supply Depot and flying spell-caster all at once.
• If you don't build a Creep Tumour then your Spore Crawlers will slowly die. You need the Creep Tumour there to produce the Creep.

5.

• No, it was you who originally brought up the point of StarCraft2 being a new game and about having StarCraft1 mechanics in StarCraft2, and I've just used your point against you, so it's not me contradicting myself.
• How can you still not be sure about what I want in regard to Zerg Detection? Have you been reading what I've said or just reading the stuff that concerns Terran?
• Just because all races may have equal Detection capabilities, it doesn't mean that all races need the same Cloaking capabilities. Regardless, I definitely wouldn't agree with what you've said about each race's Cloaking and Detection capabilities.
• In my opinion, Protoss don't really have that great a Cloaking capability. Their strength comes with being able to rush Dark Templar and mass Cloak late in the game. The disadvantage is that Dark Templar rushes are easily countered if you haven't forgotten about them or aren't risking some other tactics, and mass Cloak comes at a stage of the game when you've got the best Detection your race has to offer. Despite Protoss having a permaCloaked unit and a Cloak Field, Terran would most likely have the greatest capabilities. Zerg aren't really comparable, as they don't Cloak, per se, they Burrow.
• If Dark Templar are harassing you at different locations then you've obviously had enough time to expand and they've obviously had enough time to start mass producing Dark Templar. My question is, why haven't you got Radar Towers, Missile Turrets or a decent ComSat Station or two yet?
• You still haven't explained how Terran are the most vulnerable. And what happened to you saying you can't compare StarCraft2 to StarCraft1? on top of that, how have they been nerfed? Even if Missile Turrets required Radar Towers, they don't come into play any later than StarCraft1. The same goes for the ComSat Station.

6.

• Warp In won't be viable for a Dark Templar rush. Firstly, your opponent would have to tech Warp Prisms as well. Secondly, the Warp Prism won't be Cloaked, so well be easily and quickly taken out, even if you don't have Missile Turrets for some odd reason. Thirdly, it takes time to Warp In units, during which the Dark Templar will have next to no health and will not be Cloaked, hence, easily taken out. Fourthly, if they Warp Prism is taken out while the Dark Templar is being Warped In, then the Dark Templar will be destroyed.
• I love how you're just selecting units that will be present in each of your situations. Like how Protoss would always have their Observers, how Protoss Detection is so great because they've got Observers, and how your Radar Towers could be picking up Observers, etc, but when you start talking about Zerg you say they can simply protect themselves against Dark Templar by Burrowing. What happened to the Observers dude?!
• Attacking without adequate ComSat Energy is not a problem for the Terran. It's a choice that the Terran player would have had to have made. Either they've been wasting it or didn't build it until late. As I said earlier, Scanner Sweeps last for a decent amount of time and you don't need long to take out some Dark Templar. If you're attacking without decent backup, regardless of whether it's Detection backup or Anti-Air backup or anything, it's not a problem with the game. You've consciously made the decision and you've consciously taken the risk.

7.

• You're obviously wanting Dark Templar ruishes to become infeasible against Terran. You've made that abundantly clear, especially when you've gone into details about things that you, personally, would have chosen to have done and how there's a 'problem' if you, personally, have chosen to build other things over Detectors and have wasted your ComSat's energy.
• How can you think of Detectors as being a 'waste or resources and time'? Detectors are a vital part of the game. Labelling them as wasting money and wasting time to tech is like saying that having to build all those SCV's are a waste of time to tech, or that having to build tech requirements are a waste of resources and time to tech, or that having to build defences are a waste of resources and time to tech. Detection is a vital part of defence. Saying that building Detectors is a waste of resources and time to tech is no different than saying that building defences is a waste.
• Again, you won't be solely relying on ComSat and again, Scanner Sweeps are active Detectors, unlike static Detectors and Spider Mines which are passive Detectors.
• You can attack with decent Detection, you're practically already just choosing not to.

 

A few points in relation to your reply to overmind.

About Excreting Creep, the point is not that the bonus isn't great enough, the point is that you'd have to get all your Overlord into position in order to Excrete the Creep for the Zerg to run along. That's a bigger waste of time than gain.

About the Observers and Science Vessels, not only are you directly comparing StarCraft2 to StarCraft1, but you're making no sense while doing so.

You still haven't explained how pro players would be able to tell which of the Radar Tower locations is the real one. Think of Hunters in StarCraft1. Your opponent could be at any one of the locations. They could be top-right, top middle, top-left, right middle, left middle, bottom-right, bottom middle or bottom-left. Do pro players know which one you're located at? No. Is there a way of telling? No. The same goes for the Radar Towers. If you build several Radar Towers in several different locations, your expansion could be at any one of those locations. There's no way of figuring it out.

About Anti-Gravity, is there a law that you can only build one Radar Tower? About Immortals, what kind of Terran player doesn't use Marines? About Void Rays, combine the two above points.

The point about Siege Tanks with Missile Turrets is that Missile Turrets are only half of the situation. Photon Cannons are the whole situation.

About on the offensive, what was stopping you building both? What was stopping you waiting until you had enough energy in your ComSat? As for simply taking out the Radar Tower, how do you think Protoss players feel about their Pylons?

About the Overlord Detection upgrade, that's why other proposals have been suggested. You're ignoring all the other proposals and only talking about the ones that you can exploit. Try reading all the others.

If overmind isn't able to say things like your opponent would have to be a hacker or you would have to be a noob, why are you able to say such assumptions? Just as you've got double standards in your examples and scenarios, you've got double standards in your arguments.

About Warp In, as I said before, it's not feasible.

It's not about the Dark Templar forcing many Sweeps, it's about the Detection you've got available to you at that stage and how you wish to go about using it.

Just as you were able to build Missile Turrets on the offensive in StarCraft1, you'd be able to build Radar Towers and Missile Turrets on the offensive in StarCraft2. Not only is the ComSat not your only offensive choice, but it rarely needs to be used in most situations, and when you do need it, you'll only need to Sweep a couple of times.

 

1
A) I nvr claimed that u said models are the only problems for the overseers. My point is plz talk something related to STRATEGY. U posted it in a strategy forum. Anyway dun worry abt the models. They r bound to be improved. Anyway regarding abt un-zerg or cheesy is a matter of personal opinion. As for me I find it alrite with the exception of Overseers not having enuf powerful ablitiies. I dun mind if they have the ability to cast dark swarm so long as Terrans had the ability to cast irridiate. I am in the opinion of buffing overseers's spells/abilities..

B) For me faster = stronger as the faster u r the more damage u r likely to do..U can mix in other units to protect ur overlords to extend creeps. U would be too much if u expect overlords to get the job done alone without any inteference. That is what unit mix is for. However if its true that it took many overlords to extend a significant amout of creep, then I would agree that Blizz should increase the radius of the creeps for each overlords.

C) Well I suppose u have the overlords and Queens to maintain the creep. But think it in the bright side. Now u can extend the creep without needing to pay 300 minerals anywhere on the map. This is an improvement compare to SC1.

D) For me it seems u r asking alot seriously. Nevertheless, it also depends on Protoss and Terran balance issue. Example in my case if dark templars were made to be more expensive or their build time have increase, I won't insist in having missile turrets with passive detections or spider mines to compliment my scanner sweep.

2
A) This is where u didn't get me. I have never worried at all abt late game even when the time missile turrets need radar towers for detections. I have always been talking abt early game..And I said Immortals or Phoenix or Void Rays..not all of them smashing my detectors...So if u want to argue with me plz talk abt early game...

B) The thing for me is if in SC1 is alrite to have spider mines n missile turrets with passive detectors for detection purposes, I dun see any problem for them being implemented in SC2. Even if such mechanics will make Terrans too detectorific in SC2 then I wouldn't mind having dark templars or other cloaking units to be made stronger. I have always emphasize that I want more CHOICES in countering cloaked units. Although b4 missile turrets were passive detectors, I was still worried though. Lastly I dun like to take risk...

C) Again I have only said that I m talking in terms of early game. Immortals is considered an early game unit. As for motherships, I only said that they r powerful cloaking units. I have always centered my arguments on exclusively dark templars. In fact I have never ever complain abt lurkers. And I have always pointed out that scanner sweep is not that very good early game. Only good during late game. Having to wait for its energy since it was constructed to be fully charge is actually a long wait...

D) I suppose u have to be protecting ur overseers then with whatever force u have. Even if u r worried that its possible for ur enemies to kill ur overseers when u r protecting them with ur force which I highly doubt, u can always bring more than 1 overseers to the battlefield. This way ur detection is sufficient. Btw I think I was referring to observers n not overseers. Becoz observers can cloaked permanantly made them more superior detectors n scouts. And personally I dislike to have to rely on energy to detecting cloaking units espcially early game when energy is a major issue..I rather have something permanant on the battlefield.

3
A) I am not a pro player. So dun ask me. Besides I m only saying it as a possibility. So thats why I say we will have to wait for SC2 to determine that.

4
A) Good question. However previously when nullifier had anti-gravity, they can easily take out the radar towers even if u have adequate defence. At most it will die after sucessfully casting anti-gravity on the radar tower. So its not a matter of adequate defence. Its abt being able to take out the radar towers even if is well defended. Like a Protoss player can sacrifice their tough Immortals just to destroy the radar tower just to make the dts reign supreme on the Terran base..

B) i m only highlighting that Photon Canons are better than Turrets as a defensive structure. Other than that yes I have no other meaning...

C) Okay Overseers can detect anywhere safe on the map. That includes when ur zerg forces r engaging the enemies forces. By applying SC1 concept in SC2, I would presume its ur own fault if ur overseers get killed when they r being protected by ur forces. I have always like to mix in mobile detectors with my ground troops. The fact that I can't do that for Terrans in SC2 early game made me feel not so happy. But now that missile turrets can detect themselves, I am pleased.

D) I suppose ur spore crawlers can move somewhere else with creeps. Anyway i was refering to zerg's detection. For me its better to use overseers rather than u using base defences for detection purposes.

5
A) I only said IF..And IF u really didn't suggest that, okay then there is no other issues. And I was wrong in my guess. And plz I have seen ur post everywhere in the forum to know that u dislike to have SC1 mechanics to be in SC2 such as having medics to replace medivacs. I m merely pointing out ur favourite quote. And I m fine with SC1's mechanic in SC2.

B) Personal thing...I must have forgot or u have too many suggestions..Or that ur ideas r in some other threads which I couldn't find in this thread...

C) U should think abt what I say. If T=Z=P in detection strength and IF P>Z>T in cloaking capabilities, it could POSSIBILY cause some imbalances to occur. Just imagine there r only missile turrets, photon canons, ghosts and dark templars as SC1. What would happen? Protoss can rely on cloaking to harass but Terrans couldn't. It won't be fair. And also it COULD cause imbalances. I dun want to argue with u further especially since u r so persistent on what u say. But seriously if u had the time, ponder on what I have to say..

D) For me in SC1 Protoss cloaking are the best and yes in SC1 Terran had very good detection late game. Ur opinion seems to be more of SC1. However in SC2 b4 missile turrets were passive detectors, Terrans had very poor detection capabilities early game and in fact vulnerable to dark templars in early games.

E) U again fail to comprehend me. But yes it can be possible I have many expansions. But what I mean is that I am attacking 3-5 Protoss bases / units simultaneously. Note that I am talking abt locations far from the Terran base. And both the Terran n Protoss armies do not need to be in 1 place but at several locations..U kenot possibily tell me that I am not allowed to attack many Protoss army location / base location at the same time just becoz dts can be everywhere on the map.

F) Actually I oredi explain a zillion times abt Terrans being vulnerable to Dts as compared to Zerg in SC1 and SC2. In SC1 since zerg overlords are everwhere n the map, that made them better detectors than Terrans in SC1. As for SC2 I had oredi explain on the offensive , there is a limited sweeps early game. No spider mines anymore. On top of that missile turrets require radar towers. U seems to be thinking that I m pointing out in terms of defensive. I have never said that u kenot compare SC2 to SC1. That quote was directed to u only since that is ur opinion. As for me, i have always believe is alrite to compare SC2 to SC1. So to different ppl depending on different opinion, I will use that sentence against them. That quote will be useless on someone like me who believe its allrite to compare between the 2 games. U check what lurker's lurk said in this thread. He did claim that comsat comes in later in SC2 rather than SC1 assuming he's still right abt these facts.