Detectorific?

Okay since now missile turrets are no longer automatic detectors, I do have a question.

In a T v P game assuming I m the Terran player, how am I suppose to attack the Protoss base without worrying abt Dark Templars smashing me up in the middle of the game when

1) I can't build missile turrets with detection ability anywhere on the map...

2) scanner sweep or comsat station requiring energy therefore limiting my detection ability

3) the vulkan / nighthawk / nomad being a late game unit

4) the lack of spider mines early game

So are u expecting me to build radar towers everywhere on the map so that i can protect my siege tanks from dark templars??? I am clueless as what to do...

I feel based on my observation that Terrans detection ability is very poor even if they are better than the Zerg n Protoss. Only the Protoss has a permenant cloaking unit and does not need to worry abt any cloaking limitation...

Also i felt that Terrans air are very weak..They have only BCs and Vikings as ATA units....They need a Valkyrie type of unit..Also the Nomads ability pale in comparison to Science Vessel. No longer can I irridiate massive zerg army and they do not provide any air defence.

 

semi-true

this is the same from SC1, the only thing different from the SC1 scans and the SC2 scans is that the SC2 scans come in about a whole Tier later.

they are in the same spot as the Science Vessel is.

 

terran are no worse off than the other races really,

no body can, you just need to build a building to use the detection ability of them, just like protoss needs to build a pylon before they can have detecting photon cannons, or zerg needs to have creep to have spore crawlers (not quiet sure on the mechanics of overlord excrete creep but pretty sure its still more difficult.

atleast you have them, no other race has the ability to detect anywhere on the map like that.

its actually the same as the siege tanks you need to protect.(i think)

 

What I mean is if I send some troops consisting of siege tank, marines, marauders n etc in early games when vulkans are not yet accessable to a nearby Protoss base, wouldn't it be that I am vulnerable to Dark Templar harassments? If I build multiple missile turrets without radar towers like in SC 1, I would be smash by Dark Templars rite?

So is blizzard suggesting that I build radar towers with missile turrets everwhere my units are pushing towards the Protoss base??? If this is true Terrans would be very vulnerable I presume. Lurker's_lurk, if in SC 2 the comsat station is available in a later tier, it means that Terrans are not that Detectorific as the thread starter suggested.

Bear in mind that both the Protoss n Zerg have mobile detectors earlier in the game compare to the Terran. And also only Dark Templars can be forever cloaking anywhere on the map.

So I m wondering if I m a Protoss player and I faced a Terran player, all I have to do is fast tech to dark templars and build some immortals. Once they r available, I will just keep building them and send them to as many mineral fields as possible with the intention of gaining map control... So even if the Terran is well fortified in the main base, I can station those dark templars and kill any Teran troop that steps out of its main base. Therefore I starve the Terran player and restrict them only in their main base.

May I know is it possible? Becoz as a Terran player I m worried that any of my units that steps out of my main base can be easily harass by dark templars. Even if my scanner reveals them, the Protoss player can always pump them to regain their position.

 

Protoss and zerg may have dectecting fliers at a earlier tier, but terran has comsats to compensate for that.

 

No, you've got the ComSat Station still.

Yes, but you can easily build them with Radar Towers. As overmind already said, Protoss need both a Pylon and a Photon Cannon, Zerg need both a Creep Tumour and a Spore Crawler after Excreting Creep, so why is it so terrible that Terran need to build two buildings as well? Not to mention that the second building also scouts outside of its sight range.

No. Use the ComSat. That's already been said. Terran are the strongest race in this regard.

The ComSat Station is available at the same tier as Cloaked units. No units can Cloak before then as far as I'm aware. And the thread isn't about Terran having too much Detection, it's about Blizzard overcompensating in regards to Zerg Overlords being Detectorific. It's about Zerg, not Terran. The reason Terran's being discussed is to compare it to Zerg and to show that Blizzard's overcompensated.

All races get Detection at roughly the same stage, dude. And the ComSat Station is far superior to a mobile Detector. Just as Dark Templar can be Cloaked anywhere on the map, the ComSat Station can Scanner Sweep anywhere on the map.

That wouldn't work at all. Not only do Immortals come into the game too late for that to work but the Terran player can easily use Scanner Sweep in order to Detect the Dark Templar. By the time they have Dark Templars, you will have at least either a ComSat Station or a Missile Turret with a Radar Tower.

You can easily Scanner Sweep them to clear them off with your ComSat Station and then when they're gone you can build a Missile Turret and Radar Tower. Problem solved. Also, if they keep pumping out Dark Templar you can still keep Sweeping the area.

In short, Terran have the best Detection of the three races by a long way. By the time Terran have a ComSat Station they'll also be able to build Radar Towers and Missile Turrets, while the other races would only have Photon Cannons or Spore Crawlers and a couple of Overseers. Terran have the advantage in this regard.

 

Itzahexgor,

This is getting confusing..I need to clarify first....

1) The comsat requires energy rite? Its not like I can always have sufficient energy to comsat around to reveal dark templars rite?


2) How many comsats can I have? One per command center rite?

I am having doubts that I will have enuf energy to always reveal dark templars seriously...

In SC 1 the missile turrets has passive detection oredi. Making it a detector with a radar tower is a step backwards. Plus Terrans no longer has spider mine early game n still has a mobile detector late game..May I know wat is so great with this comsat when it requires so much energy?

When they make it such that all Overlords need to upgrade to Overseers so that they gain detection abilities, this is a good idea actually. As to whether Blizzard nerf it too much, I dunno. One thing for sure is that SC1 Zerg overlords are much more detectorific than any race in SC2.

May I know why on earth Terrans are best in this regards? This is weird...

 

and what do you think needing to evolve each overlord separately to get detection is?

the fact that it can sweep anywhere, doesn't have to spend time moving to a destination and doesn't put itself in physical harm in order to detect.

what does it detecting those ghosts sniping/nuking you when your terran? 75 energy, what does it take for protoss? the risk of losing one observer (which is cloaked itself) for zerg? the time and resources needed to morph overlords into overseers, the lost of 8 supply which is nearly a guarantee unless you spend units at distracting the ghosts (not to mention any support units).

its not like DTs are highly spammable.

this say you are terran and your protoss enemy is massing DTs and holding the expansions with them like in your scenario.
you can
A) scanner sweep and do hit and runs on the DTs (reapers and vikings will be very useful for this) harassment can make people withdraw their forces easily as no player will keep pumping DTs out to get slaughtered.
B) protect your base with radar towers and turrets and tech to nighthawks and just slaughter them with aircraft.

all the other races just have option 2, being 1 tier lower makes it a little easier to do admittingly but they don't have the flexibility of getting detection anywhere on the map in miliseconds, not to mention with RTs they can see you before your coming and with comsats can instantly detect anywhere, they can scan base in fog of war for ****s sake.

 

Yes, and as soon as it's built you'll automatically have a Sweep ready, and can store around four when it's fully charged. One Sweep is all you need in order to take out the Dark Templar. By that time, if you haven't built a Missile Turret and Radar Tower, then you deserve to die.

That's why you build Missile Turrets and Radar Towers! Obviously you can't solely rely on the ComSat Station. If you could, then Terran wouldn't even have Missile Turrets and Radar Towers. All the ComSat needs to be built is an Engineering Bay, which is the exact same requirement that both the Missile Turret and the Radar Tower have. It's simple. The Radar Tower Detection is no different than if you had to build two Missile Turrets in order for them to Detect in StarCraft1.

It isn't necessarily. If you use two SCV's, to build both a Missile Turret and a Radar Tower, then the time taken in order to get a passive Detector will remain the same. If you use the same SCV to build both then you'll get Detection twenty five seconds later.

The reason Scanner Sweep is so great is because it's a bonus. At this stage of the game, all races will have a passive Detector. The Zerg will have Spore Crawlers, the Protoss will have Photon Cannons and the Terran will have Missile Turrets. On top of this Terran will also have the ComSat Station. If a Cloaked unit manages to get through the Detectors into their base or if their opponent is defending their base with Cloaked units when you're attacking them early on, you'll be able to Sweep the area. No other race has this advantage. At this stage in the game, Terran has everything that the other races have, plus more.

So you say that introducing Detection via the Overseer for Zerg is a good idea but say that Terran don't have enough Detection? That makes no sense.

Again, Terran are the best because at this stage in the game they have everything the other races have, and more.

To Detect;

Zerg need Creep to be able to build nearby Spore Crawlers (Detectors).

Protoss need a Pylon to be able to build nearby Photon Cannons (Detectors).

Terran need a Radar Tower to give nearby Missile Turrets Detection, plus they have the Scanner Sweep which grants Detection anywhere they want.

I seriously can't explain it simpler than that, dude.

 

To ItzaHexGor:

Your explanation if the 3 races detecting abilities is really good. And points out one thing. They all detect by the same means. Having one thing (ie creep or pylons or a radar tower) to allow another thing to be built to have the detecting ability (spore crawlers, photon cannons, missile turrets).

I'm all for balancing. But for my mind I much preferred the SC 1 way of detecting. Because on the whole the method of detecting for each race was different and thus had to be used with different tactics.

Actually this is my biggest beef in SC2. A lack of diversity between the units and the races. I agree with all of the ides in this topic though. As long as the end result plays differently for each race. If not it'll be WC3 all over again. Each race is essentially the same, just different skins.

 

sorry just remember that i said ill post a link that said that the ComSat is about a whole tier later.

ComSat needs a Merc Haven, which needs a Factroy, which needs the Barracks.

Source : http://www.sc2armory.com/game/terran/buildings/surveillance-station/

 

For me that is not a step backwards but a role reversal. Though Overlords lost the ability to detect cloaked units, they now have the ability to expand on creep. Take note that is a very important role as Zergs will have some sort of bonus on those creeps. On the other hand in SC2, missile turrets lost the ability to detect cloaked units and did not gain anything new. That is call a nerf.

Yes comsat won't put u into harm. It doesn't last forever and its limitation is energy.. Protoss observers r best in this aspect as u may have claim as its unlikely to die as it is permenantly cloaked and also a detector..

The comsat takes alot of time to store energy to its maximum capacity. Those dts can run away from the sweep and come back after the effect of the sweep is gone. Even if I kill them, the Protoss player might be able to spam more dts before I have enuf energy to reveal them again. Since comsat is attached to command center this makes my scanning rather limited..

My scenario refers to the situation when the Terran player is far away from his base and he is attacking the Protoss player's base...Thats why u have said earlier in this situation I should rely on comsat only while ignoring the idea of building massive missile turrets with radar tower heading towards the Protoss base rite?? Since the Terrans are far from the missile turrets n radar towers logically the only thing they can rely on is comsat which is cursed by its limitation on energy. In SC1 I could build missile turrets n spider mines to compliment the scanner sweep..So isn't this some sort of nerf?

Okay even if what u say is true that building radar towers can be so fast which I doubt. The fact remains is that u r wasting cost n also wasting the one scv which can be put to better use for example mining or repairing ur troops. Isn't this another nerf?

In a way yes it s a bonus. But u are only rite during later games. Why? Becoz no matter what an earlier tier mobile detector > scanner sweep due to energy limitation. I must stress this energy limitation becoz scanner sweep isn't just used just to reveal cloaked units but to spy on enemy bases. If this remains it means that as long as Vulkan is not available, the Terrans are being "forced" to keep energy just to detect dark templars which make it less useful...

I say so becoz I m comparing SC1 to SC2. The zerg's detection in SC1 was too powerful which makes dts and spider mines nearly useless. So now its better since cloaking units r more useful against zerg. As to wheter its the best balancing act, I dunno. But Blizzard did make a good direction in trying to make cloaking strategy more viable against Zerg.

U must understand that Terrans detection in SC2 pales in comparison with SC1. First, the need to build radar towers to give missile turrets detections..Second no spider mines in early game..Third vulkans are still late in the game.. And the energy requirement for scanner sweep doesn't seem to improve...Alas radar towers no matter how useful they are provide a very good advantage against Terran opponents since they can see the Terrans' base. This is very bad as the opponents gets a free look into the terrain in ur base and they can now easily know ur build order should u decide to deploy radar tower. And dun forget that Protoss can employ anti-gravity to lift the radar tower which likely disables the missile turrets detection.

 

On StarCraft Wiki it says it only requires the Engineering Bay and it's citation is for the WWI 08 Coverage on Terran Buildings, which is fairly recent.

 

look at the big picture, the races abilities to detect and the way they are balanced.
in sc
zerg could detect easier
terran could detect easier

i'm going to use terran as an example because it seems to be the race you understand the most.
lets say radar tower now provide a ground attack to missle turrets and comsat now does damage instead.
each of these units have had a 'role reversal' and certainly have extremely useful abilities but terran ability to detect has been nerfed.

and in SC1 i could bring some of my spare overlords to detect instead of having to mutate them into overseers..So isn't this some sort of nerf?

just like you have to waste cost and time and an overlord in order to morph a detector when overlords themselves could detect in SC, isn't that a nerf?

and zerg are being 'forced' to mutate overlords into overseers just to detect dark templar.

zerg detection pales in comparison to SC1. maybe blizzard is trying to make cloaking more viable to terran opponents aswell, how come you support blizzard nerfing zerg detection but cry out because terran have slightly worse detection than they used to aswell?

well maybe you will need to adjust your tactics in SC2, don't expect everything you did in SC to even work let alone be effective.

overlords are used to provide food and i had to expend them in SC considering the possibility of them being killed, in SC and even more so with the extra step required to get overseers, the risk of using them to detect is alot more than losing recharging energy.

 

so it does, but i dont trust wiki, it failed me to many times in the past.

 

It lasts long enough to dispatch of a few Dark Templar. By the time they've rebuilt their Dark Templar force, there's a good chance you'll have another Sweep ready, provided you aren't wasting them, but the main point is that if you don't have Missile Turrets with Detection by that stage, you deserve to be wiped out.

Protoss Observers don't come into the picture until later. In the timeframe we're talking about here, Terran have everything Protoss has, plus a Scanner Sweep.

Every teams is at a disadvantage when attacking. That's pretty much the point of defence, to give the defending team the advantage. Regardless, at this stage in the game Protoss players will not have Observers and it's unknown whether Zerg players will have the Overseer, so yes, Terran still have the advantage, due to Scanner Sweep.

If you want to still use your old tactic of building a Missile Turret on the offensive, there's nothing stopping you doing that in StarCraft2. You obviously brought an SCV with your attack force in order to actually build the Turrets, so all you have to do in StarCraft2 is bring two SCV's, one for the Missile Turret, one for the Radar Tower. If you can only spare one SCV, then you're still able to build one after the other, or, in order to have Detection right from the start of the battle you could build the Radar Tower in advance, which would warn you if there was any suspicious activity. Regardless, your best bet is just bringing two SCV's, as there'll be next to no difference compared to in StarCraft1.

Nope, it's true. Twenty five second building time, which is exactly the same as the Missile Turret.

Define wasting cost? Compared to StarCraft1 you might be but this is a completely different game and they've significantly changed the resource system. No matter whether you're playing StarCraft1 or StarCraft2, you're paying for what you build. There's no wasted cost. Well, not unless you try to build a Command Centre with a ComSat directly outside their base...

As far as we know, there isn't a team which has a mobile Detector as early as this. Observers come much later and we haven't heard from the Overseer. The Scanner Sweep may be useful for more than just Detection, but you've got to value the Energy it uses. Obviously locating your opponent is a priority, but after that you've got to ask yourself is it really worth simply spying on your opponent or would it be better for you to use the Scanner Sweep for Detection?

Besides, let's just say you're using it for spying. In this situation, there would be two significant outcomes. Either... 1) They are using or teching to Dark Templar, or... 2) They aren't.

1) Assuming they are, you'll have to act both defensively and offensively. Defensively, you'll build a sufficient number of Radar Towers and Missile Turrets to Detect them in case they attack. Offensively you'd have a choice. Either you'd wait until you're sufficiently equipped to counter them when you attack by either having enough resources to quickly build both a Radar Tower and Missile Turret or enough Energy in your ComSat Station to provide enough time to wipe them out, or you won't attack. The third option would be deliberately marching into the death trap unprepared, but I think that's stupid enough to automatically discard as an option

2) If they aren't, then there's no problem, and you won't need a Detector.

So if you're using Scanner Sweep to spy, you'll never be caught in a bad situation. One of three things will end up happening...

1. You'll find out that they are using Dark Templar and attack once you've got enough Detection to support you...
2. You'll find out that they are using Dark Templar and choose not to attack because you won't have sufficient Detection for it to be worthwhile...
3. You'll find out that they are not using Dark Templar and be able to attack freely.

I'm all for making Cloaking a viable option against Zerg, but they've overcompensated here. Either that or they've just done it in a really unpopular way. Either way, Overseers need to go.

Pretty much all teams have worse Detection than they did in StarCraft2. The fact remains that out of the current races, Terran has a fairly major advantage over the others. I can't see Cloaked units being a viable option against Terran at the moment.

In regard to the three points, first, it doesn't take any longer to acquire Detection through the use of Missile Turrets and Radar Towers than it did in StarCraft1 and only one Radar Tower is required to grant Detection to all the surrounding Missile Turrets, much like Protoss Pylons and Photon Cannons, and the other advantages of the Radar Tower easily offset this minor drawback. Second, Spider Mines alone can't provide enough defence against Dark Templars on its own. Detection is required, and by the time you could get Spider Mines in StarCraft1, you can have Detection in StarCraft2. Third, the Vulkan's position is insignificant as the mobile Detector in StarCraft1 also came into the picture too late.

I don't see what you're saying about the Terran opponent being given a free look in the Terran base. Mind clarifying?

About Anti-Gravity, that's true, but just as Protoss Players don't rely on a single Pylon to power their buildings, Terran players shouldn't rely on a single Radar Towers to grant Detection to their Missile Turrets.

 

Overmind,

1) If really radar tower provide ground attack to missile turrets and comsat does damage, I m seriously happy eventhough they have lost their detection. Seriously..But it didn't happen..The fact is everything is the same EXCEPT missile turrets r NO LONGER passive detectors.....Overlords on the other hand has a new ability which will enhance the zerg though creeping...Isn't that hard to understand??

2) Its true that Zerg's detections are much worse off in SC2 compare to SC1...yes u r rite that all those r form of nerfs..But that is for the good for SC2 as zerg's detections in SC1 is far too insane...One thing I never say is that morphing them to Overseers is a great idea...In fact all the while I , stressing that I do not know whether Blizzard has gone overboard in nerfing Zerg's detector powers..Maybe if they were to make an upgrade to allow Overlords to become detectors, that might be a good idea. That is best leave to Blizzard to decide...

3) The reason I m "crying foul" over the Terrans one is becoz the nerf is TOO much...No spider mines early game and what is the logic of making missile turrets not a detector??? The reason why phase cannon need pylon is becoz all protoss buildings require pylon energy... not becoz pylons provide detectorship to phase cannons..Terrans on the other hand has the advantage of building anywhere. So forcing them to build an extra bulding to make missile turrets is plain STUPID!!! How r u going to describe in the lore as to why all of a sudden missile turrets no longer become a detector...The answer will be likely a stupid one...

There r good reasons to make zerg detectorship worse but what is the reason for nerfing the Terrans' one? Zerg is becoz in the first second of the game itself u have a free detector. Throughout the game there will be millions of detectors whole map. So do u think Terran players in SC1 are not afraid of Dark Templars at all just like the zerg? The answer is a simple no....as in the beginning of the game dts can be dangerous. It is only in the later stage that dts are no longer a major threat....Also only the Protoss has a permenant cloaking unit therefore the danger against Terrans are more serious....

4) Yes u r rite. A new game needs adjustment in strategy. But considering that we have lack of information, lack of practice while there is a nerf in this new system, can u blame me for being worried??? Of coz I dun say I know everything but the fear in me is justified...

Itzahexgor,

Before I reply I would like to say speculation is subjective at the moment...And plz take into consideration that the game is still subject to changes as well..Therefore even if u r rite, this fear of me is justified...Plus even if u did play in Blizzcon, I doubt u have enuf time to really know well abt this stuff considering the game is still yet to be released.....

1) U also know how to say good chance in detecting dark templars..U can't 100% guarentee me that this problem is non existence in a fair match between players of equal skill.. I dun think anyone can at the moment except Blizzard themselves...Anyway what I want is an alternative to scanner sweep just in case it's a failure...What is wrong with that? I want the spider mines back early game. Mebbe fit inside the hellion...

Mebbe u r rite abt the Protoss thing.. I dunno. But one thing for sure is that Protoss warp buildings very fast. So there is a likelihood that they can get either observers or dts faster than u can imagine..Plus Terrans do not have a permenantly cloaked unit like the Protoss...And observers r too good as they r forever cloaking..

2) Building a combination of missile turret n radar towers nearyby the Protoss base might waste too much money and cause the Terrans to defeat..I dunno. But if u were to compare with SC1, this idea makes the Terran much more vulnerable in its offensive towards the Protoss base..Take out the radar tower n there u go...dark templars will rule.....Dun forget abt anti gravity which can make this SC1 strategy not viable in SC2...

3) Exactly compare to SC1 it is wasting cost and wasting my one scv which could be doing something else useful..Who knows? Mebbe by forcing an extra scv to build the radar tower MIGHT cause the Terrans to lose the game....After all Terrans are a race of micro..One mistake wrong can be a doom to the whole game..That is why any adjustment to this race can be very "sensitive"...

4) If I could build both turrets, towers n comsat there might still be a problem... Defensively shouldn't be a problem.. But in early game how much energy do u think that u have in oder to detect many waves of dark templars... I hope that protoss can't simply spam dark templars.. But there is still a chance that they might be able to. The idea is that the Protoss player will harass u until u r out of energy. And if building those detectors nearby Protoss base is not a viable choice, it will only make it worse...

If u give me the idea that I should "wait for enuf detectorship" until I attck the Protoss, this might be a sound idea. But u must remember the longer u delay the battle, ur enemy will be going stronger...Plus we r talking abt Protoss here not Zerg. Zerg might grow weaker the longer the game progress but Protoss will most likely be very much stronger compare to Terrans if u decide to play the "waiting game"...And ur third option is plain crazy. Its as if u r asking me to take a big risk....

5) If I did "spy" I might be wasting my energy as the reveal might not bring me fruitful result..It becomes a matter of luck...not skill...Plus like I say even if I did figure out n I m confident of taking the Protoss out, they can force me by harrasing my "energy"..The way u all talk sounds as if energy regenerates like a Sorceress in Diablo 2....And waiting might make my enemy grow much stronger...

6)Cloaked units might have problems with Terrans only in their main base...Outside its a totally different story... as they can force the Terrans to waste their energy....

When it comes to spider mines its a matter of luck..the dark templar can trigger the mine and cause the dark templar to die...but if they sacrifice another unit to allow the dark templar to go through then yes its useless. But at least spider mines r a form of defence against cloaked units even if they r not reliable...

If I m not mistaken, the radar towers grant the enemies of the Terran a permenant reveal of the Terran base..I need to check out n mebbe someone can confirm?? The whole point is that radar towers got a disadvantage and so they r not as great as u might suggest.....

Mebbe we can reach a compromise. Since u think radar towers r too good and I think they r not useful, we can suggest to Blizzard to scrap this radar tower n allow missile turret to be passive detectors just like in SC1....

In conclusion even if I m dead wrong, my fears r justified as there r nerfs towards Terrans' ability to detect n dark templars can roam around the whole map...Mebbe if dark templar requires energy to cloak this would be a non-issue....Anyway the game has yet to be finalize n if there r some changes, what i think is my worse nightmare might be a reality....

 

Firstly, about what you said to overmind in regards to nerfing, you're looking at this with an extreme Terran point of view. This is especially noticeable when you're talking about how Zerg's 'nerf' was a good choice, but the Terran's 'nerf' wasn't. You're happy that the Zerg's Detection has been cut back to such a great extent, but even though the Terran have the most Detection early on in the game, you still want them to have more. It's impossible that Terran Detection were nerfed too much. In the stage of the game we're talking about here, they have the strongest level of Detection. Later on this may change, but seeing as they're the best off at this stage, you cannot possibly say that they've been nerfed too much.

About Terran being able to build anywhere, that still applies. The fact that the Missile Turrets need to be built in a specific position is not stupid. Although Terran can build anywhere, they've still revolved around the placement of their buildings, and needing to build Missile Turrets near Radar Towers is another example of that. Other examples of Terran layout is the Add-On system which requires that Add-Ons be placed next to their parent building and other more strategic examples like blocking off passages with Supply Depots. Both of these examples have been developed and expanded in StarCraft2 with universal Add-Ons and sinkable Supply Depots. In that regard, there's absolutely nothing stupid about requiring Missile Turrets to be near Radar Towers at all. Just because there isn't a required structure, it doesn't mean that Terran don't have a structured layout. This is merely an extension on that. Besides, I don't see why you wouldn't want to have to build Radar Towers. There's no reason. On top of that, having this helps with balance as well.

So just as Add-Ons need to be placed next to other Terran buildings in order to allow for high tech unit production and upgrades, Missile Turrets need to be placed near Radar Towers to be able to Detect. It's merely an extended and more flexible version of the Add-On system.

About lore, well if you think it doesn't makes sense for Missile Turrets to have lost Detection, try explaining about how Overlords have evolved to lose their Detection but have evolved to be able to mutate into a more advanced creature that can.

In regards to my response, first and foremost, I didn't go to BlizzCon and haven't played StarCraft2. The fact still remains that Terran still have the greatest Detection capabilities early on in the game. They have everything the other races have, and more.

1) You can always tell where the Dark Templar are, even when you haven't got a Detector. You can't target them, but you know where they are. Even if you can't tell, once they start attacking there's absolutely no question as to their whereabouts. After spotting them you can pretty much Scanner Sweep on their exact location. If you're Sweeping before you've spotted them, then you deserve to have wasted that Energy, as that's poor management.

Protoss building time isn't any different from other teams' building times. In fact, the fact that Terran can build anywhere and that Zerg already have an area of Creep to build on while Protoss needs to build a Pylon before they can start teching indicates that they would actually be slower than other races. What you may be thinking of is how they're able to leave buildings while they're Warping In, which enables them to build a lot of buildings in quick succession, but that offers no benefits when trying to rush to a later tech as you've got to wait for the prerequisites to fully Warp In before you can start building further.

Not to mention that rush teching to Observers makes no sense. They've get static Defenders (Photon Cannons) much earlier than that and there are few, if any, other races that can rush tech to Cloaked units, so there's no need for them to have mobile Detectors that early.

About Observers being too good, well, the fact that they can Detect and are Cloaked doesn't make them too good, as that's all they can do. If you're Terran a simple Sweep (remembering that you shouldn't be wasting your ComSat's Energy and that you should also have a couple of ComSats by this stage of the game) and you'll be able to take them out, enabling your Ghosts and Banshees to Cloak, relatively unchallenged. Observer's aren't too good. ComSat's are the best Detectors in the game.

2) Yes, maybe, or maybe the game will be balanced in that regard. Again, if you're wanting a static Detector outside their base, then that's the price you're got to pay. And it's a price no different from the price that the Zerg or Protoss have to pay, in fact, seeing as the Protoss always need to wait for the Pylon to be completed before building their Photon Cannon while Terran are able to build both at once hence halving the building time, Terran again have the advantage.

Take out the Radar Tower and the Dark Templar will rule? You're clearly not thinking here. So you're saying Terran are more vulnerable because all they have to do is take out one Radar Tower and you can no longer Detect? How is that different from StarCraft1? All they had to do in StarCraft1 was take out the Missile Turret. There's no difference.

As for the Nullifiers, if a Protoss player has teched straight to Dark Templars and is producing them en masse, chances are they wouldn't've produced many Nullifiers, just as Terran players who rush tech to Battlecruisers don't stop for anything along the way either.

3) Now you're starting to get irrational. In this situation you're talking about either having an attack force with Detection but taking up an extra SCV, or an attack force without Detection but you'll have an extra SCV. Which would be more beneficial? If you can't afford to take an extra SCV, then just cut back on a Marine. They cost the same and if bringing an SCV instead of a Marine will grant you Detection, then it's worth it. Regardless, you're being irrational. You're worried that bringing another SCV might cost you the game, I mean c'mon. How much fine tuning do you want them to do in regards to balancing? Besides, Terran aren't designed to always win, and no tactic should enable them to. The same goes for all races.

4) This is just getting tedious, dude. What? Do you want to always be able to knock over any Protoss player you want in your first attack? That's just stupid. Not to mention that if they did spend their time rush teching to Dark Templar, they won't have many when you defend. You'll have a lot of Marines and they'll have a few Dark Templar. If you need more than a Scanner Sweep in order to be able to cripple them right there and then, you're not a good player at all.

Well what else you you going to do if you don't wait for enough support? Are you going to just march in there, knowing that you won't be able to attack them? Obviously you won't just leave your computer while you're waiting for the Energy, you'll obviously be continuing to spend and develop your base. Read over that again. It's sound reasoning. If they have Dark Templar, then you're going to have to either wait until you'll be able to attack successfully or not attack at all. If they don't, then you've basically been given the all-clear. What else do you want? And what the hell do you mean by Zerg grows weaker as the game goes on? That makes no sense whatsoever.

5) You were the one who said you used the ComSat for spying in the first place! Seriously, dude. You said it yourself. You're arguing against your own points here.

6) No, the Terran player can elect to use the Energy in order to fight back. Besides, what would other races do? They don't even have anything like the ComSat at this stage. They're stuck with their static Detectors back at their base, and you're *****ing about the Terran's Detection having been nerfed too much? Seriously dude, you're looking at this through far to much of an irrationally subjective view. You're looking at it as though the Terran need to have a counter for everything. Well what about the Protoss? If they go out on a limb and try to rush tech to Dark Templar, you're saying they shouldn't even be allowed to remain Undetected? Seriously, think about what you're saying.

So you're all for Spider Mines, and you said yourself that Spider Mines rely on luck, but you're against spying with the ComSat because it relies on luck and not skill? Make up your mind. As you said yourself Spider Mines are a form of defence, even if they're not reliable. That's the exact same reason why you're complaining about the ComSat. Because it's not reliable and it might fail you sometimes. Seriously, no joke. Make up your mind.

Radar Towers do nothing like that. What you may be thinking of is that the Radar Tower's position and it's sensing radius is visible to the Terran player's opponents, but that is no different from Creep being visible to the Zerg player's opponents.

You call that a compromise? That's not anything close to a compromise. You're basically saying 'Seeing as you think your way and I think my way, why don't we suggest to Blizzard that they implement everything I think in the way I think'.

Your fears are not justified, you're merely misinformed and looking at this through an irrational and overly objective view. Terran have the best Detection of all three races. Please at least just answer this one question... Do you believe that Terran have the best Detection capabilities at this stage in the game? Haivng Missile Turrets require a Radar Tower is no different to having Photon Cannons require a Pylon and a Spore Crawler require Creep, so all teams are almost perfectly even in this regard. Then, on top of this, Terran have the ComSat Station as a bonus.

 

i actually facepalmed.

you are complaining about terran being so weak agianst dark templar early game, but would support something that would have them get completely raped by them?

look the point is i was not looking at the overlord and going 'this units been nerfed', i was looking at the big picture, the zerg ability to detect and the coalition to the other races abilities to detect and cloak and so far, zerg do not have decent detection. I really cannot explain this any easier...

actually i play all 3 races i just prefer zerg.
In SC1 cloaked units seem to have a bigger impact against the zerg late game, especially wraiths because, while overlords may be readily available, they are not expendable, losing even one removes the ability to create 16 zerglings, 8 drones etc, losing a few overlords with that army in that attack prevents the zerg player from rebuilding said army until more overlords have been spawned, and while i may have enough hatcheries and resources to do that very rapidly, even all at once, i have to take extra time to respawn overlords in order to do it.

secondly, as protoss i actually use DTs more against zerg than terran, especially later game when you said it is "less"viable to use cloaked units, sending the ovies running long enough to make a few hydra's blow up is very fun and easy, especially against new players.

on the other hand, i always was very hesitant to use cloaked units against terran, not only is scanner sweep very hard to avoid, it is also unpredictable, you cannot know how many sweeps worth of energy a comsat has left, or even how many comsats they have, let alone spider mines as you've said.

yes terran have an advantage and comparing to protoss as you did, terran can stil construct them both a hell of a lot quickly since they have the advantage of building them at the same time instead of having to build pylons before being able to warp in cannons.

blizzard is obviously trying to deter the advantage just as they're trying to remove zerg detection advantage early game, why should blizzard keep all their advantages while zerg be nerfed to the point of target practice for marines? oh, thats right, because you play terran.

I can assure you losing 1 overlord is alot worse than pulling 1 SCV off the mineral line and losing the 50 or so minerals it could have gathered,you lose the ability to build 8 of those, you lose the time it takes to spawn the overlord which could've been used to build 8 at once, you effectively lose 8 times the amount terran lose just in that one ovie.

and since you're *****ing about removing a SCV of the supply lines for a short time, consider how bad it is for a zerg player to build a spore colony for the same role as your missle turret? the drone is removed permantly, which is why zerg players patrol such a large number of overlords around their base this is why, particlary early game, zerg defensive structures have to be placed more strategically than other races, and overlords must be relied on for detection.

also, all races rely on micro, one mistake for any race can be instant defeat and adjustment to any race is 'sensitive', despite what you think zerg do not rely purely on wieght of numbers to win a game, otherwise seige tanks would be way more effective and zerg would really suck (which you obviously don't think since they need to be nerfed so much).

the way that you have described "waves of dark templar roaming the map" i really don't think your enemy would be teching very quickly, alot if not most of their income would be going to said DTs, you will be able to tech to starport alot quickly than the protoss player would be able to get adequate protection, just build a few nighthawks and some banshees and its GG DTs and probably a good portion of their base.

it is the location not a permanent reveal, as most player would know the location of your base via scouting by this stage the ability to see enemies coming is still a huge advantage.

1) Giving the overlord a detection upgrade is what the OP and most replies have suggested
2) this is a starcraft2 forum and the purpose is to discuss it
3) you don't seem so sure blizzard is competant in what they're doing detection wise about the terran.
quoted for emphasis

Since you've stressed losing spider mines aswell i have to point out that overlord passive is not the only way for zerg detection in SC1, both plague and ensnare were ways to detect for zerg, they now lose these 3 abilities and have to rely on a rather risky and expensive means of detection in sc2.

The reason that i feel that zerg detection is balanced in SC1, is the risk of using an overlord to detect.

 

Overmind,

1) Plz do not misunderstood....I was talking abt role reversal not abt having the ability to kill dts with ease. If u were to remove missile turret's detection ability, I wan something new. The point is I want something in return for what I lost..In other words compensation. So back to ur overlords, u did gain something....but my missile turrets did not....

So I nvr said I did want to smash dts with ease...I wan something new no matter wat so that I won't find it a "nerf". And even if it did work in ur if scenario, the damage might not be significant enuf to the dts.....I hope u get my point...

2) Overmind, the overlords are the strength and also the weakness of the Zerg..U have the equivalent of a terran science vessel, dropship n supply depot in a unit..In a way it saves alot of cost. Since u can easily build overlords early game in sc1 ur detection is close to overpowered....Thats why a nerf to zerg in sc2 is justified. Or else we will get back exactly the same situation of sc1 in sc2...And now that overlords expand creeps, u should be happy as creeps gives zerg bonus...


3) No matter how u explain its still a from of nerf ...U shouldn't tell me "oh u still can do this..therefore u should be happy" is plain wrong. A nerf is still a nerf. And comparing them to Protoss canons is ridiculous...The canons can now move within pylon energy n they can attack both ground n air. Care to explain to me what new thing did I receive from missile turrets which r positive n not negative? Plus Protoss can rely on observers.

4) if I m not mistaken now Queens r in charge of building defences. So no wastage of drones...And again abt the effect of overlord dying..yes u r rite....one death of overlord is pain. But dun forget that zergs can expand cheaper than other race n can recover much faster than other race....So I see it as a non-issue. It is always the duty of the zerg player to care for their overlords....When there is pro there r also cons. plz....Also the zerg are the latest to be develop so only for the moment zerg might be weak..terrans r more polished n if they have a prroblem it can be serious just like d protoss...

5) Building nighthawks n banshees cost alot of resources n u need to tech alot in order to reach them.

6) When it comes to threat of dts against either zerg or terrans, terrans will likely suffer more especially with the lack of spider mines...For zerg without mobile detectors u might be able to fend of dts outside ur main base...firstly if the dts hit u, u can just burrow n unburrow ur zerg ground troops..U can try to use banelings to "commit suicide" on ur troops if they were to be attacked by dts so that all will die instead of the dt running happily. Alll the while my point is that Terrans are over relying on comsat in this regard n I hope u can understand this...

Dear Itza,

Forcing Terrans to build missile turrets with radar towers for detection is not a flexible version of the ad on system....If I can have it in sc1 why make sc2 alot worse??? In the early stages of the game, Terrans' detection is not satisfactory....Ur point abt Terrans' detections are best only applies late game....



1) Okay i think u still kenot get my point abt "harrasing the Terrans' energy". Let's say the protoss has 4 dts....n i m talking abt fighting happening outside of the terran main basediscussion.Instead of sending 4 dts to attack one in one wave the protoss can send them one at the time.So instead of the Terran player having to comsat 4 dts in one go, now they have to reveal 4 times as the protoss can attack the in different time....

Observers r permenantly cloaked n they r also detectors...hence they r the best dectector in the game individually. plus they can be easily spam if u got gas.... Terrans one is too far in the game.....And plz the Ghost n Banshee owning as u suggested might not be happening as protoss r likely to guard their observers...end it ...Plus dts are permenantly cloaked. But Ghost n banshee needs energy....

2) Building anywhere is Terrans' advantage...Again requiring radar towers for detections is a form or nerf...Also the Photon cannons can attack ground n air unlike missile turret...Alas they can also move within pylon energy which is a new thing (positive). The new thing Terrans received is a negative one...

The Protoss do not need to spam the phase canons in the whole map unlike Terrans...They have observers n no other races have an equivalent of dark templars which r the strongest cloaking unit in the game..So comparing it with me having to spam missile turrets outside my main base its not fair..So what is they require pylon and double Terrans time??They dun need to do spam whole map unlike Terrans...

Plz think properly...obviously u r not a Terran player hence u just dun care too much....Since radar towers gives detection to all surrounding missile turrets, one radar tower gone means abt 4-5 missile turrets lost detections. In Sc1, one missile turret gone the other missile turrets still can detect...hence there is a MAJOR difference...

.

3) Plz keep in mind that my intentions are to make Terrans more alternative to detect outside of their main base...not to make sure 100% they win....Over reliant on comsat is a bad thing as I have explain b4...I said mebbe having one scv might cost me the game..

4) Wat is wrong if I want to have more alternative to detect like in Sc1 earlly game? besieds its not like the prtotoss are desperately needing dts to beat the Terrans...In the first few minutes yes i will have alot of marines...But as the game progresses alot of energy will be consume n hence i will be weaker in d offensive since dts can be spam..Also sometimes dts will be accompanied by zealots, so u can expect some dts to slip away from ur comsat. it doesn't have to be 100% dts...

U can develop ur base and so can ur opponent. its always better to smash up the Protoss b4 they can come out with troublesome units like Carriers.If u limit Terran's offensive as it is now, chances are dts can gain map control. If u want to expand, they can kill ur scv b4 u set up ur radar tower + missile turrets....So hence starving the terrans= victory for the protoss

5) Yes i said its for spying. But how did i contradict myself?? my point is that limitation of energy.

6) Comsat is Terran's advantage. ...Other races is okay to be stuck especially protoss becoz as Terrans I might have to counter the most powerful cloaking unit in the game? But what do protoss has to worry abt? Ghost n banshee needs energy n upgrading cloaking ability needs time n energy unlike dark templars. As for zerg they have the overseers n they can burrow their units in the event of dts attacking...my point is terrans are more vulnerable to dts early game...so i have my logic....u dun seem to get my meaning...Its not abt oh I should be happy abt comsat since other races do not have. may not be sufficient....also my point clearly states the lack of spider mines early game...

I m not saying i m against spying with comsat...plz dun put words into my mouth...I m saying that spying might be giving me no fruitful result as oppose to what u say abt it sure gives me benefit....

Regarding spider mines, just give them bc to me early game n I can stop complaining...Whether its reliable or not that depends on me...I m not asking for spider mines to be ultra efficient against dts. If that fails thats my problem...at least i want spider mines early game..then i will be more than happy....My point is that I m NOT COMPLAINING abt spider mines unlike comsat.....

Dear Itza, I have the right to point out my opinion...And why u bother abt what I think if u really in favour of scarpping radar towers?? The whole compromise thing is good if i think it not useful n u think its over powered. It means we have the same idea of scrapping it....

7) As for ur question whether Terrans have the best detection or not I seriously do not know...And actually it is not important. What is important is having a ratio of quality of detector against enemies cloaking capabilities....So what even if Terrans have the best detection if enemies cloaking units r overpowered?? My point is Terrans deserve to have the best detectorship since they r more vulnerable to dts outside of their main base....If u nerf dts, then its okay for u to demand terrans detectorship being nerf....U just want to nerf terrans capabilities to detect without considering opposing factions' cloaking capabilities...

Okay I put it this way...Since now missile turrets require radar towers to detect, I want to make dark templars permenantly cloaking ONLY in pylon power or phase prism...Both have the same idea...That is nerf..If u think my idea is ridiculous, then missile turrets with radar tower is even more ridiculous....

Again comparing missile turrets + radar towers with pylon + phase canon might sounds fair. But what abt SC1? If it works in SC1, why not in SC2? the fact that u want to make them comparable is akin to turning starcraft to warcraft where most teams have similar units....Plus zerg creep is free, so its not really fair also...

This is where the problem lies...u think comsat as a bonus.. I think ita necessity. if there is no such things as comsat, dts will own...And there r other factors too. A bonus n a necesity is two different thing...

Alas ur concern is terrans have too powerful detecting ability while mine is the concern abt dts too threatening to terrans early game..Its best that u try ur best to understand what I m talking b4 u reply..in conclusion, my fear is justified.