Customized play styles: uber universal upgrades

Reaker, you take over man, I'm burnt on this guy. I think we're on the same page anyway.

I'm tagging out. When I'm back tomorrow, we better be over all this useless crap and actually get good idea discussion going that pertains to the original topic.

 

You can't just say that you'll never have enough minerals to research those upgrades. It all depends on the amount of minerals that are on the map to begin with, and on how the game pans out. It is preferable to have these upgrades researched because it strengthens the army a lot, and if you've researched all yours and your opponent hasn't researched any, then you'll almost definitely have the advantage. Keep in mind that I did say: "In all games you should at least try to get all of those upgrades researched." I never said it was compulsory or should take a top priority.
I still believe that if you have 3 upgrades where you have to chose one, they shouldn't be special upgrades. Special upgrades should be readily available in the tier 3 period or something.

 

are you sure you are not playing money map? -_-!!

 

I dislike money maps immensely! They ruin the game in my opinion, because they basically make it unnecessary to expand at all. I'm talking about the normal Hunters map. Best map in the game I reckon.

 

Hmmm, there has been so many posts that I didn't get to read other pages than the first and last.

But to the conscription idea: Terrans already have one like it, the Reactor add-on!

And about moving while burrowed: I wouldn't want it. Moving too slow would not benefit the game much. And periodical detection checks around your base would nullify it, imho. Moving too fast, well, there's the Nydus worm that can do better than that for a bunch of different units at same time anyway.

I think these are great ideas, but somehow the new implemented units and structures cover too much ground already. It's hard to create upgrade ideas that the currently developed game misses, anyway. But I'm not saying we should quit trying.

Also, about the idea of choosing only one upgrade, I don't like it much. I mean, BCs can do that, but many BCs can be built. And MS doesn't have to choose, it can research all of it's skills. I just feel like all players should have access to all the chosen race's features. Just a feeling tho.

Making one having to choose could be an easier way to live a different game experience each match. But I don't think it should be mandatory. You're already led to make different choices every match anyway. No need for a restriction.

 

i like the idea of the uber ups becuz you would have to choose which one to use, rather than just create a super power before anyone else does, i think that it could be well balanced because blizzard is amazing like that...
your a fan of age of empires ItzaHexGor arent you?

 

Got an idea for the Burrowed Movement thing. Just throwing it out there.
Maybe the Lurker (assuming it returns) should be the only creature able to do this. After all, it is only able to attack while underground. However, it would be different to normal movement. Seeing as it would be much harder to navigate underground, the Lurker would go in short, relatively fast spurts, in a kind of a 'random yet still accurate', zig-zaggy line, and pausing for a touch after each movement.
If the red line is where you order it to go from and to, and the blue line is the path it takes:
/ |
| |
\ |
|
|\
| \
| /
| |
|/
Pausing after each interval. However, because it still has an adequate movement speed, it would need to have some slight visibility, like how you can tell that cloaked units are there, even if you have no detector, because they distort the ground around them. This could suit the Lurker so that it can remain underground while relocating.
Any thoughts?

EDIT: Obviously the Lurker wouldn't be able to fall of cliffs or into rivers or anything because of its random/staggered movement.

@ longlivefenix, not a big fan of Age of Empires, I prefer Blizzard RTS's, being WarCraft and StarCraft, and the only other RTS that I enjoy playing is Dawn of War!

 

if they got the ability to move under ground... how would you keep them from coming into your base? burrowed supply depots?
anyways the use of this idea is to sneak through their defenses and abush them
SO WHY DON'T PEOPLE LIKE IT!?!?!?

edit

just got inspiration... (sorry if this has already been mentioned)
what about if the speed of travel depended on the size of the unit? like lings and hydras move fast while units like a medium units mmove slower? thoughts?

 

The Borrowed Movement thing would just be like a slow cloaked unit. Just like the Dark Templar, Ghost, etc. You would be able to see that it is there even if you don't have a detector, just like how you can see that Dark Templar are there without a detector, it's just that your unable to attack them because you can't select them. There would be some slight visibility, like I said before, just like normal cloaked units.

 

Well, the way the game is now is not at all about creating a super-power first. Even with the MS. If that's what you meant.

Choosing is creating a restriction and thus creating less diversity in gameplay. Actually, I think that overall racial upgrades work better for Protoss, as the shield upgrades work for buildings and units alike. Terrans shouldn't have one. But perhaps Zergs could. An entire racial upgrade should be something to enhance a race's characteristics. And therefore, not a choice other than the already done when you chose a race.

Also, you completely ignored what I mentioned about burrowed movement being already a role of the Nydus worm.

 

The Nydus Wyrm is very much unlike what I had in mind for Underground Movement. There is a huge delay when spawning the Nydus Wyrms, and they also not any kind of a scout. I imagined Underground Movement as a Zerg way of cloaking.

 

The whole mechanic of the lurker is that it cannot move while attacking. If he wants to move, he has to unburrow first, making him visible without detectors and giving the enemy a little time when he is helpless. Giving him burrowed movement would destroy this, not to mention making him imbalanced if he remains unchanged. And the way I see it, the zerg shouldn't have a "normal" cloak, like terran and protoss. They have burrow, period. The protoss units with cloak don't suffer any disadvantages, they're constantly cloaked. Terran units which have the potential cloaking ability need it researched first, and they also use up energy. Zerg units can all "cloak" by using burrow, but they cannot move or attack while burrowed (with the exception of the lurker), and they are helpless for a second when they unburrow. Every race has it's way of cloaking and, not counting toss, different disadvantages. It even has a power level, toss having the strongest one and zerg the weakest. I like it the way it is, it gives every race a more unique feel, and Starcraft 1 wouldn't be half the game it is if not for such distinctive races.
To make it short, I don't like the idea of burrowed movement. Not for any unit. Keep burrow the way it is.

 

Scouting is either role of Overlord or parasite ability in late game. Invading and ambushing are roles of the Overlords, hidden Lurkers or Nydus worms. Enabling all burrowed units to do it would simplify the diverse Zerg strategies and units. I greatly dislike it, specially when NWs have a so cool animation! ^_^

 

@ Patuljak. The idea of Burrowed Movement a popular one among many Zerg players. I was just adjusting and limiting it to fit in with an already very capable burrower. The Lurker is obviously a master burrower, because it is able to burrow despite its size, and has also developed an attack that is only able to be done underground. With these kinds of evolutionary advancements in its ability to burrow, it makes sense that it would be possible for it to move while burrowed, and would make more sense than just every Zerg unit being able to move while burrowed. Also, it would not be overpowered, because the location of the Lurker would be made slightly visible similar to other cloaked units. As we know, the Lurker was very fragile if it had been detected, or was caught out of the ground (which is another reason that would encourage it to move underground). If the Lurker was given this ability, its weakness would not be destroyed and it would not be imbalanced. After all, you would now be able to see where the Lurker is while underground, so you could catch it sneaking up to your enemies, or you could spot them before you walk unto the ambush. Seeing as the Protoss are able to cloak all their units, except the Mothership, it wouldn't be unfair for the Zerg to have one unit that can move while burrowed.

@Overling. Burrowed Movement does not affect Nydus Wyrms. You can still have the Nydus Wyrms spurt up and release a steady stream of Zerg units into their defenses frmo the safety of their own home. Burrowed Movement might even be able to be used in conjunction with Nydus Wyrms. Just slowly sneak a burrowed unit in, and use its sight to spring up the terrifying Wyrm. It would really give your opponent a fright when they see the Nydus Wyrm suddenly appear when there doesn't appear to be any other Zerg units in sight!

 

The movent while burrowing was originally my idea so I thought I could help with all the debates going around

1. Speed would depend on size of unit (longlivefenix).

2. I heard this one somewhere, but Ultralisks and all other ground units would gain the ability to burrow, but they would move very slowly.

3. When a burrowed unit is standing still, there is no indication that they are there, but while moving, the ground buldges us behind them for a few seconds so you can see where they are moving (ItzaHexGor).

4. Units cannot burrow through obsticals that are not natural terrain. So if your playing a map where each base is surround by Walls or Temple, then Tunnelers couldn't get it. But if each base is surrounded by say Raised Jungle or High Dirt or something similar they could still burrow through. The only exception is ashphalt, because that is only a thin layer above the ground. Also High Temple or the likes could be burrowed through, because they burrow through the mountain not the Temple.

5. Units moving while burrowed have reduced sight and can't be ordered to Attack to a destination, so lurkers have to be manually stopped to fight. This is because they aren't just waiting for something to come by, they are putting all thier attention into moving (Patuljak).

6 A) If a burrowed unit starts off on low ground, but then burrows under higher ground, when it unburrows there will be a delay in seconds equal to the difference in hieght (so if you start on Hieght 2 terrain and end on Height 6 terrain, it would take 4 seconds to unburrow.

6 B) A burrowed unit cannot move onto ground which more then 2 levels lower unless there are ramps (so if you start on 6 and want to go to 2, you have to find a ramp down or your stuck unless you use nydus worms or ovis to save them).
^ ^ ^ ^ ^
This one only applies if you unburrow while on higher ground. If you dont unburrow, you always count on being on the same level ground you burrowed on.

If anything here needs clarifying or you can think of other things that should or may apply, tell me.

And now lets just get back on topic with Uber Upgrades.

 

just want to check if you knew that the reactor doesn't reduce the cost of unit, it only allow you to build 2 at a time. but you still have spend twice the minerals. it's an useful add-on for the barrack in early to mid game, late game you can simply build another factory, anyway terrans don't use infantry that much late game anyway so conscription just simply an incentive to use them

 

Oh yeah, my bad! However, drop pods still make the units cheaper, and do encourage their use in late games.

@ other 2: Nydus worms do it instead of moving while burrowed. You can have much better ambushes and invasions with it, than allowing all units to move slowly underground towards a certain destination. Nydus worms simply ignore geographical distances and obstacles, which is much much better than sneaking from below. As long as you have the current methods, moving while burrowed is unnecessary.

 

@ BnechbReaker. I reckon that in StarCraft2 infantry will still be used in late game, because some of the new units are weak against either a lot of units or weaker units. The Reapers also have their charges and can raid bases very efficiently.

@ Overling. You still need sight of the area where you've going to spawn the Nydus Wyrm. Besides, other teams still have cloaked units as well as having a way of transporting units almost instantly, Ghost's Droppod and Protoss Warp-In. I don't see why you can't have both in one army.

 

no you don't even "at least try" to get all of the upgrades researched, if you are terran vs zergs you only try to upgrade infantry weapon/armor, possibly vehicle and definitely not ship. if you are tvt or tvz then you never upgrade infantry you only upgrade vehicle and possibly ships depending on the situation. this is because going for infantry in tvt or tvp is simply suicide. tank, vulture, reaver and ht pwn infantry so bad it's not even funny. in zvz the most imprtant upgrade is flier carapace, because muta dominate that match up. so what you upgrade mainly depend on the match up and to a lesser extend your style of play. e.g. in tvz most terran like to mass m&m, sv and only a few tanks for support, so it's unwise to upgrade vehciles just because of a few tanks, however another viable option is the double factory tvz in which the terran still mass m&m and sv, but also mass tanks. in order to compensate for the resources, less sv's and medics are built. if this is your perfered style of play than upgrading infantry as well as vehcile weapon is advisable, but you still won't have resources to upgrade vehcile armor. so you choose to only upgrade weapons becuase it gives thank +5 damage in siege mode. wasting resource by researching ship upgrades in this scenario is unthinkable, you could do everything right and still lose simply because you wasted resources on things you don't need.

basically it comes down to strategic viability and its consequences, north korea don't "at least try" to nuke usa because they know what will happen to them if they do.

 

I don't think you need the sight. I assume the whole map, though covered in fog-of-war, will have a visible terrain. I would rather wait till Nydus worm's mechanics are explained to us, before discussing this. But I think it can be spawned wherever you want, just like a Nydus Canal was on enemy Zerg creep. Only difference being that you don't need a creep to spawn the other side of the canal now. But we should wait and confirm how it works before discussing this any further. This is what I got from the first presentation tho: a Nydus canal independent of creep.