Customized play styles: uber universal upgrades

What does Terran have to do with anything? They'll follow the usual pattern of tier 3 units are stronger than tier 1 and 2 units, just like Protoss do. It's just that Zerg, instead of having powerful late game units they could have powerful late game upgrades, which make their early to mid game units able to be used just as effectively in late game. We've already seen that Terran have at least one really powerful late game unit, being the Thor. Most of the others are tier 2 probably, except for the Battlecruiser. It's the same with Protoss, who already have the Mothership, Carrier and Colossus which are most likely all late game units, but because nothing has been released on the Zerg units and mechanics yet, it could easily be made that instead of powerful units, they get the powerful upgrades.

 

wow that was a great post...
i get what you mean though and i dont really no if i agree
im torn between the two options

 

One thing those of you are are against Uber Upgrades for all races fail to realize is that the Mother Ship is a single unit and can only do so much. But if every creature, or at least the majority of them become more powerful, it would be unblanaced, even if they dont get a super unit. An army of "Uber" zerg would be more powerful then an army backed up by a single mother ship, because it is only the one unit that is so powerful. So every race should get Uber upgrades, and then each have further differences. Protoss get a super unit and uber ups, zerg could get +10% more food limit and uber ups, and terran get the ability for multiple SCVs to work on a single building or something as well as uber ups.

 

oh please. almost everything can be balanced. If they for instance get 50% extra regeneration, or 15% extra speed, and it turns out OP, you just lower the numbers. Easy as that.

 

Agreed however take out the word 'however' before the word 'everything' in your post because everything can be balanced

 

no, zerglings jumping down cliffs cant be balanced

 

@ SD-Count, I understand your argument, but I can not say that I understand the logic behind it. Well, I understand the logic that you think is behind your argument, but I can not say that I can agree with it.

Example time. Say you have a game where you can create your own player character and customize accordingly. Say you choose between male or female, that's two distinctly different ways to customize your character. Because if you choose male, you also choose to give up the other possible option(s) and can not be female. The options are mutually exclusive and thus, distinctly different choices. If you can then choose from five different races, you then multiply that by the number of different options you had before, so you then have a total of 10 ways to customize. For everything else, you keep multiplying to get the total number of different combinations.

SC is different in that it's more dynamic and much less clearly defined, but you get the idea. But the more important thing is that, in SC, you often do not choose something over another, often you can have both. Not always, but very often. If you factor in how certain ways of play is the "better" way to go in specific match-ups, such as choosing air armor upgrade over air weapons, going mutalisk in ZvZ, or going heavy metal in TvZ, you're down to very few hard combinations to choose from. Do not confuse different tactical options in the game with the number of combinations of the game's different built-in options.

Now, say you had the option of putting sunglasses on your character. You either have it or you don't. You don't choose the sunglasses over anything else, and there is nothing else that you can have in place of the sunglasses even if you choose not to have it. The sunglasses are very different from the other options that go into customizing your character, because unlike the rest, the sunglasses do not force you to give up anything else. There are no such consequences in making that choice. Now, if the sunglasses actually had a positive function or purpose, say it doubled your character's magic damage for instance, it's even less of a method of customization.

If you had three of such things, a pair of sunglasses, a pair of wings, and a glowing halo, you can have all three and you don't sacrifice any other option by having them. If on top of that, all of them gave some kind of positive effect, can you really say they are customizations? Most other player characters that you see running around will have them all at first availability. As a result, to truly customize and differentiate yourself, you would actually have to choose not to have one or more of those items. You would be giving up things that otherwise benefit yourself just to be different. That's some customization, wouldn't you say? Pretty ridiculous.

I don't know if you actually realize it, but you've put up a couple of different arguments on why the uber upgrades would be a bad idea. First, you said the uber upgrades would actually be limiting customization. This is wrong, because the idea itself is to add onto whatever else already there in the game. So unless you are arguing how things already in the game are very limiting, additional options wouldn't be a problem.

Secondly, you said that unit specific upgrades such as range or movement speed upgrades would somehow serve as ways to better customize a player's play style. I hope you realize that unit specific upgrades for the most part are not a IF thing, but a WHEN thing. Those things are not customizations, no one thinks about whether to get them or not. No one plans a strategy around siege tanks without siege tech or dragoons without range upgrade. Suggesting that choosing between whether or not to upgrade dragoon attack range is customizing, is quite simply, absurd.

Special abilities is a little closer to being customization options, but even special abilities don't do much for customizing play styles in practice. Some special abilities naturally end up being better than others, and some naturally better in certain match-ups than others. And if there is two that's equally good for a single unit, you would just get both. There is hardly any customizing to be had, because again, few things are designed that way in SC. If you look at BC special abilities in SC2, you can see my point. They made the two abilities mutually exclusive, so you actually customize. You can only choose one of the two abilities(yamato and plasma torpedo) for any single BC. There is a reason why they made it that way as opposed to making them researchable upgrades that apply to BCs universally. So you actually choose one over the other.

Aside from things like choosing between the special abilities for each BC, the only customization options hard-wired into SC design that differentiates one player from another in a clear-cut way, is the choice between the three races. The uber upgrades idea is about providing each race with at least three more choices of differentiation. I don't really see how it can actually be more limiting than how it already is. Especially when there are suprisingly few ways of playing each race differently. All Zerg players essentially going ling->muta in ZvZ for example.

But quite frankly, I don't really care anymore. Seems like the naysayers will keep coming up with one unfounded reason after another just to say no. If one gets shot down, they bring another one equally illogical. 99% of the time it doesn't even seem like they even know what they're saying themselves. But as it seems like this is the case with more and more threads, and that naysayers seem to be more active than folks that argue sensible logic, I've but lost all interest. Feel free to say that this idea completely suck because unit attack range or movement speed upgrades are better customization options by design, I am too tired to argue with that kind of logic any longer.

 

Welcome to teh intarnets.

WC3 had some kind of mutually exclusive player customization: The Heroes. You can only have 3 and they are central, the choice in which order to get them is a big part of a players strategy. I think they would be a fitting analog to the Superupgrade aproach.

 

You call my logic flawed but I see yours as equally wrong. You base your entire argument on the fact that to be truly 'customizable' in your words we must give up one thing for another. I agree with this but you seem to forget, in fact I believe your extended metaphor proved it. You seem to be forgetting the most valuable resource given up when playing a game in the fast pace starcraft, time and well... resources. Upgrades take precious minutes, resources must be chosen between upgrades, units, or a building. You have a pair of sunglasses, they COST $500 and is 1 kilometer away from you. You must pay the $500 and then run to the sunglasses, or you can sit down and doodle on the ground and keep that 500 for something else.

The next argument I believe you made, and it contradicts my above point well, is that it is not a matter of if, when. I agree with you on the point of dragoons, zealot foot speed etc. and I do blame myself for not stating my position correctly. What I argued was against the universal upgrades and continue promoting individual upgrades, like the battle cruiser you mentioned. So in some terms yes, right now it's limiting but my stance is not that of universal upgrades up revamp the current upgrade system. I did not say that our current system is perfect, hence my suggestion that we develop individual upgrades more. Yes, some abilities end up being better than others, but that's because we don't have a good limit on the resources. With a Dark Archon, you're not going to get mind control over maestrol first, in fact you may never get mind control, yet against a terran battlecruiser player you'll favor using mind control or just get energy boost for feedback. Once again this system is not perfect, take the high templar for example, which is why I support continuing down this path rather than having blanket upgrades.

I would like to see the mineral and time factor play a larger role in customization and the when and if, with more abilities a player can not just stick to a build order against some opponent yet with universal upgrades, once a protoss player sees he's facing zerg, he'll immediately choose faster reload lower damage upgrade (random example). With more abilities and upgrades a player can adapt his tech tree mid battle and stick with one choice through the whole game but rather make many different interdependent choices thus offering more room for balancing personal preference which is proactive and best chance to win, which is reactive.

Universal upgrades takes away from the latter and forces a player almost exclusively to the former. Personal preference (let's take mutalisk against protoss and lurkers against terran) will dominate over what is the best thing to do right now moments. One choice, it's over, all your range units have +1 bounce or every unit can move underground, battle changes? too bad, you stick with it. There's the consequence you talked about, yet you say in no way does universal upgrades limit player customization. A player can customize their army at will and stick with those choices, but they must also be able to adapt technology wise as battles progress and if they choose poorly in the heat of one battle they suffer every other war afterwards. I agree whole-heartedly about limiting all you can eat buffets for upgrade choices but rarely do games reach a point where a player can just upgrade everything for the heck of it because of the restrictions I mentioned earlier, minerals and time. To add more one choice out of 2~3 is a great idea, but I don't think it should apply universally. One large consequence at the beginning of battle is poor in terms of REAL TIME strategy and smaller but no less significant choices is much more suitable for SC in my opinion.


To conclude this, I have no reason why you type with such a heavy condescending tone, and assume others are not competent I will not try to guess why.

-Yes, I splashed letters onto the screen and luckily got some points in, go me-

-Yet when only using dragoons to defend for a short time before heading to DTs, corsairs, and the archons it would be 'absurd' to upgrade it, is that not a choice?-

-Of course, a summation of my character with every other 'naysayer' you've met, and I'm the illogical one.-

You believe I argue this because I want to be negative, say no, and all I'll come up with is illogical arguments against your impenetrable idea and everything opposed to it is no contest because people are just being stupid and therefore you have no time to argue with them. I do not know the history of these forums and do not pretend to, but I hope you have good reasons.

 

What if, (I got this idea from when people started talking about Siege Tank's Siege Mode and the Dragoon's extended range, Zealots increased speed, etc.), every specific unit in the game has an upgrade that effects it individually? For example, in StarCraft1, Zerglings could get their hugely increased attack speed upgrade, so, if you want to use Zerglings, then you definitely get this upgrade. Marines could get their increased range upgrade, so, if you want to use Marines, you would definitely get this upgrade. Zealots could get their increased speed upgrade, so, if you wanted to use Zealots, you would get this upgrade. So, in StarCraft2, what if they made the unit-specific upgrades cost a lot more, but do a lot more? The Zergling upgrade could benefit their movement speed and attack speed significantly, possibly even damage and regeneration, but cost a lot more. Marines could get significantly longer range and significantly increased damage, (maybe even the ability to fire while moving, but they would be less accurate and slower than if they were walking normally). This already happens to an extent in StarCraft1, but maybe in StarCraft2, instead of giving uber universal upgrades to customize your army, they could give uber individual upgrades.

 

Individual Upgrades either delay usage of a unit (like Siege Tech - what is the point in the Tank without it?)
or make it viable lategame.

Uber individual upgrades would have to be set on top of these, we can´t replace the old upgrades just like that.

 

Of course the old upgrades would still stand, but there would be an addition of the new individual upgrades. This is another way of customizing your army, just like the uber universal upgrades, so it would obviously be late game, not early to mid game like the Siege Tank's Siege Mode is. All units would be just as effective as before, so it doesn't delay their usage, but you can choose to give expensive, uber upgrades to the units that you use more, or prefer using.

 

as long as the uber ups are less uber (like they aren't something you can get then get nothing else)
OR
on each tier have a choice of one minor upgrade that effects all your units
like the technology in Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends on the Vinci faction where you can spend these "research points" to gain either better units, better upgrades, or even prototypes/experimental units

of course the prototypes wouldnt be in starcraft but i think that the better units and ups could work

also the system from Age of Empires could be used where you choose a bonus when your go to the next age it would make more sense though just to add a system that once you get a barracks you upgrade one choice at the
CC/Nexus/Hatchery
then once you get the factory you would get the next upgrade choice
then after the starport (or w/e building (maybe sci lab?)) etc
i actually think that this could work

remember, were not going for most innovation (theres probably a better word (and i mean like extra things like upgrades)) were going for an exciting, balanced, lasting gaming experience (but we wanna be innovative with the units and abilities)

thoughts?

 

SD-Count, you said universal upgrades would limit the choices down to three, and you still argue that dragoon range upgrade is a customization option as if in competitive multiplayer Protoss actually has that choice. But even if we pretend that it was a viable option, at the end of the day you still have just played against a dragoon using Protoss. Also by your kind of logic, if you researched zealot's movement speed upgrade and the opponent went all air, you're screwed since you already invested in that and you're obligated to make use of it. Why do you think the people brainstorming the ideas were trying to keep them universal? To minimize possible liability perhaps?

Anytime Remy disagrees with anything, he's an unreasonable tyrant. I do not know why you continue with your illogical points and I do not pretend to, but I hope you have good reasons.

 

why are we still arguing about this?
seriously
either their gonna take it or their not