Collosus: Air or Gound target?

There has been no proof of the Stalker being able to fire simultaneously and you obviously didn't read my post so...

 

That was a rather inane statement. What makes you think I didn't read your post? The Stalker does not exactly fire simultaneously when there's both a ground and air target acquirable, but it's cooldown is halved and it turns from the ground to the air unit in between the shots, like Remy said.

 

Oh I didn't realize Remy said that. My bad?

 

I did point out that in the WWI Protoss demo vid, the Stalker and BC do not exactly have two attacks going out at the exact same time. However, close observation of their behavior will indicate that they most likely have the ability to acquire two separate targets at the same time. You can see it easier with the Stalker but not the BC because the Stalker faces(turns to it) whichever target it attacks at any given moment, but the BC does not do this(similar to the SC1 Dragoon), at least not as much.

The only technical difference in the case of the Stalker or the BC is that they will fire their shots one quickly after another instead of actually firing two shots at exactly the same moment(at least from what's been seen so far). Practically however, there is little difference, since it's still two attacks within the cooldown time equal to that of just a single attack cycle. Also, you can't say that each attack has shortened cooldown than that of a single attack, since that is not the case. It is two attacks each running on independent attack/cooldown cycles, both equal to just one in length of time. Since both are independent, they can overlap while keeping the same cooldown. You can think of it as having two units with the same cooldown attacking together, neither affects the other one, same case here.

About the dual pistol example, seems like some of you are not happy about it. But you really have to look at it from within the practical scope of the game. If you want to go strictly anal on the pistol example, then the only units it can be applied to is the original MS and the Carrier. However, with the BC, Stalker, and the original Phoenix, you must account for intentional design based on actual in-game balance. The reason why a man with two pistols can fire both pistols at a single target but the Stalker can not, is quite simply that, Blizzard didn't want it to. If people actually need some kind of explanation, it can simply be that the two weapons of the Stalker are variations of the same weapon model that each specializes to attack either a ground or air target, or some other crap like that. But anyway, my whole point was really that a single unit with the ability to attack two different targets isn't really that absurd, especially when considering some of the other stuff in SC.

@ Psioncz, I just watched the vid again just to be exactly sure(which I was already pretty damn sure about to begin with), and indeed you can see the Stalker and BC acquiring and attacking two separate(one ground, one air) targets in the "final battle." Next time, please give something a bit more attention before discounting it, both the BC and the Stalker actually do it very early in the battle.

The first BC on the scene(starts out bottom left of the screen) first kills off a Phoenix with Yama. When it engages the second Phoenix, you can see that it attacks the Zealot when it comes into its attack range. After it fires at the Zealot, it immediately fires at the Phoenix, without disrupting the cooldown of its AtA attack. This is further evidence that the two attacks run on separate cooldowns, instead of it attacking two targets with shortened cooldown.

In the case of the Stalker, you can see it with the second Stalker that comes into the right side of the screen(third Stalker total I think). When it Blinks in, there are Marines and a BC within its attack radius, so it engages the BC on the right(its left) and one of the Marines on the left(its right). It keeps turning left and right to attack both. However, it's not just with that one Stalker either. You can see the same thing with all the Stalkers that come into the same position later on. Also, with the later ones, you can see that there is a difference in timing between the two different attacks(less delay). Which again, is evidence that the two attacks are on separate cooldowns and attack cycles, instead of just a single attack cycle adjusted to fit two attacks within the cooldown time of one.

The answer is, you won't have to. You can focus fire on whatever target you wish, if there just happens to also be a secondary target within the attack range of your unit, the unit will simply dish out another attack automatically. The extra attack is a secondary function, it is not meant to be something controlled manually with perfect precision, it is merely a bonus set of attack that runs on autopilot.

You can't hope to have control over every little aspect of the game, nor would you need to. Taking the original MS for example, would you really want to have direct control over each of its 16(don't remember the exact number) attacks to attack 16 specific targets? I wouldn't think so. If you focus fire, you can fire all 16 at one target, but if you just attack-move, you can let the game handle it and divide the 16 attacks evenly on 2 or 3 targets. We've had a similar mechanic in the case of the Carrier for 10 years, it's really not that big of a deal. While the mechanic in the case of the Stalker and the BC is slightly different, it's still not something to sweat about. However, I also find it unlikely that the Hydra would have the same ability as the Stalker, despite having different attack values VS air and ground. But then again, they did bump it up a tier... I'm confused.

 

i can see it hapeninf for a unit like batlecruiser. and it makes alot of sense sense even in sc1 it did not use the same weapon to attack air and ground (on the selection screen it had one for air and one for ground).

 

i just checked, the hydra only has one attack value for land and air

 

Lol, I'm confused. What did I discount?
Just to clarify, what I was saying is that they don't attack air and ground at the same time, they just cycle from ground to air faster without the normal cooldown.

Another thing I'm not 100% on, is first you make out you understand that they do not fire at ground and air at the same time, minus the old Phoenix and Mothership. Then later on you said this:

Since the Hydralisk and Stalker basically attack in a similar fashion except the Hydralisk fires faster, meaning it wouldn't be unbelievable for it to cycle from ground to air without the weapon cooldown as we saw from the Stalker and CB in the video.

Btw, I agree with you that they have no cooldown when switching to ground or air targets.

On the Mothership, you did have control as you could focus all of its projectiles on a single unit or allow it to target whatever is in range but not selecting a target, you can choose what you want to fire at by simply moving the Mothership, meaning whatever is in range will get fired at and the closer the target the more shots it will recieve, the same thing goes for moving away from a unit as it would recieve less fire since its probably less of a threat as we all know the AI fires at whatever is closer and shoots at it.

But what you all need to realize is the only unit which fires at different tiers at the exact same time is the Mothership, currently.

 

Where'd you check? I just checked then and saw that the Hydralisk dealt eight damage against Ground targets, and ten damage against Air targets.

 

Where did you all check? Sc2armory I guess?
You can't really disprove anyone unless you have solid offical information about its attack (that goes for everyone), and the most reliable source we have right now is Jon, if he remembers.

The Sc1 Hydralisk done 10 vs both ground and air.

 

I checked on StarCraft Wikia, which sourced StarCraft Legacy and the information was recent as of 14/3/08, which was why I asked Ursawarrior where he checked because I would like to know if more recent information has been released. With all due respect to Jon, he's probably not the most reliable source unless he's copied it down or commented on it in an interview as human memory is not perfect so chances are that documented information is more reliable by now. Either way, the most recent information is the most valid and there's no point in discounting it just because it's 'old' if we've heard nothing since, because not only have we not been told that it's been changed, but even if it has been we haven't got a clue of what it's been changed to. Regardless, we know that it has dealt different damages to Ground and Air units and that eight to ten damage can't be too far off the mark, relevance-wise.

StarCraft2 is completely irrelevant as it was at a different tier and used a completely different damage system, not to mention that StarCraft2 is a sequel, so will not be the same as the original.

 

This is incorrect, unless there has been recent changes to the Protoss Carrier that I'm unaware of. Also, regarding the MS, I was specifying on direct control over each of its individual attacks to be applied to different targets of your conscious and intentional choosing. The only "control" you have with the MS mechanic is whether to focus fire or not to focus fire, just like with the Carrier. But I think that's what you were saying. In any case, that whole point about the MS was to address your last question/statement directed at me a few posts back.

As for the whole discounting thing, I merely meant that I wish you would look at something a few more times before giving up saying you don't see it, as opposed to whatever else it might mean. I said that because I thought you were saying that you couldn't see the Stalker in the vid, even though the Stalker was IMO the most obvious one. If you did see it, I just got you wrong, my apologies in that case.

Now about the Hydra thing, I was basing my crap off of SC2armory, dunno about everyone else. The main reason why I find it to be unlikely for the Hydra, and this is one of the few times you'll hear me say this, is lore. The Stalker is a mechanical walker, so I thought they can get away with saying it has separate weapons or at least targeting systems or whatever. However, the same doesn't really make sense in the case of the Hydra. If the Hydra can attack faster to accommodate two targets, it makes no sense why it doesn't just attack faster all the time. I think if you started nitpicking, it would be harder to be explained in the Hydra's case. But if Blizzard decided to make(or already have made) the Hydra attack two targets, I have no problem with it personally. It is what I think would be the case, not what I think should or should not be the case.

 

Lol, yea. What I said was I didn't see the Stalker firing at multiple targets like a Mothership would. :]

Ah you're right with the Hydralisk thing, I never looked at it in lore terms you see.

On the Carrier, the only way I see it attacking differents tiers and unit a the same time is with Escorts, as I havn't heard of the Carrier having a Mothership attributed attack, I thought it was as it was in Sc1.

 

When you don't focus fire with a Carrier, and there are multiple targets within its attack range, it can attack several different targets. I am counting Interceptors as the Carrier's attack.

The MS mechanic is basically borrowed from the Carrier, except that the MS attacks directly instead of deploying weapons that execute the actual attack. And while one might argue that Interceptors are "units" since they can be targeted, they still can not be considered actual units in the practical sense since you can not really build only Interceptors. Thus, there are really no strategies pertaining to the Interceptor but not the Carrier itself.

 

Can you show me some evidence for the Carrier's new attack style please as I find that quite interesting.
Or are you saying its always been like that?

The Mothership couldn't borrow the Carrier's attack method as the Mothership was the first ever unit to attack multiple targets (or maybe the Phoenix).

Coming away from topic, the Interceptors are indeed units, generally they are sub-units, as they have hitpoints, shields, attack, armor, etc.
There are tactics involving Interceptors as they draw fire away from the Carrier, then theres the aspect of killing off the Interceptors instead of the Carrier, thus wasting the players minerals.

 

oops, sorry, i checked the hydra of sc1