Carrier Escorts

Nothing but I made assumptions throughout my post to try and illustrate a point that really can only really be made clear with examples, which in this case require some assumption on our part.

 

why dont they just preload the carrier with four interceptors, and make it so you have to build the rest.

 

Didnt I already suggest that

 

you might have, but said it in a less clear way

 

or you can have the escorts as a purely portection weapon for the carrier that only attack targets once the carrier itself is underattack

so the intercepters are used to attack targets, while the escorts go off and shoot at any enemies that are attacking the carrier itself

 

Thats automated. If a unit is attacking the Carrier, then, manually, you'd attack the unit, meaning we can do it our selfs.
To be honest I think the Tempest would be a better unit choice, instead of adding yet another ability to another unit which had unique attributes without an ability already.

 

In the Overload vs Escort debate: why is having instantly-prepared Carriers necessarily a good thing?

The Carrier in SC1 was the only unit that required preparation outside of the unit's natural build time. Now, while this sucks for the player building them, it is in itself an interesting mechanic. It gives the Carrier-builder's opponent the opportunity to take advantage of a poorly-defended production infrastructure and also allows them to determine that the Carrier-builder is in fact, constructing a Carrier fleet well ahead of time. The Carrier is a powerful unit, but a unit's counter's aren't always other units: in the case of the Carrier, it is oftentimes the unit's slow build time and fragility, as well. The introduction of pre-loaded Interceptors and Escorts removes this, meaning the Carrier is now much more powerful. Now, of course, more powerful is good but what do we have to counter this?

 

Now, there is a logical argument. The Escort mechanic IS better period, even if some people here can't understand it. But as 10-Neon puts it, whether making Carriers is better than before is a good move in itself, that is an entirely different question.

I'm merely pointing out the merit of the Carrier change itself. About whether it is good to allow Carriers to be better than before, I don't feel strongly either way. To me personally, Carriers were largely a joke/noob unit 95% of the time. I give fat kudos to Blizzard for coming up with such a clever idea, but I'm Zerg, I don't have any love for Carriers anyway. But as someone who is always going against the Protoss race rather than playing them, I certainly wouldn't mind if they got a bit better. What's the feeling of the Protoss players? Were Carriers good enough back in SC1 for y'all?

Oh and 'sup Neon, been a long time.

 

We all understand that the Escort mechanic makes the Carriers more powerful. I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't think that's the case. The thing is that people don't like this ability itself. I don't think many people have a problem with making the Carrier more powerful, as it can always be balanced out. Personally, I don't like the Escorts as they don't suit the rest of the Protoss. The Protoss are hard, durable and there to stay. They don't have temporary units, even if they are only pseudo-units, that you've got to buy for each individual battle. This is why I suggested an ability that would have the exact same effect but is carried out in a different way. A way that is much more suited to the Protoss.

 

I think the max is 4 interceptors right now. I like to idea of additional forces to strengthen carriers' offensive capabilities. I'm anxious to see where they end up with the idea.

 

I forgot to mention it earlier, but I just thought I'd point out, Remy, I find it peculiar that you point me out on saying...

...But you did the same thing later on.

 

@Remy: You're not the only one that thought of the Carrier as a "joke" unit ... while it was powerful, I saw it as a cheap and annoying way to defeat someone. I only ever go Carriers as an absolute last result because the danger:micro ratio is just stupidly high.

What the Escort mechanic does is lower this ratio by increasing the "micro" half of the ratio and leaving the "danger" half about the same.

What is different is what I call the "danger profile" (a term I made up a few hours ago.) In SC1, the Carrier started off weak, but with upgrades and resource investment, could be made to be incredibly dangerous. The new Carrier will be different, it is a bit more dynamic: as soon as it is built it is capable of going to maximum power- but at a cost. What this means is that, unlike the SC1 Carrier, which stayed dangerous once all of the Interceptors were built, the SC2 Carrier has to be made to be dangerous, and stops being dangerous after 45 seconds without further investment. Basically, whenver the unit's owner isn't using it to spearhead a major assault, it is weaker than a SC1 Carrier, but when it is used in the heat of battle, it is more powerful. It balances out somewhat.

Now, I don't want to ignore the proposed Overload mechanic. I do agree that this mechanic would "fit" better with current Protoss trends. High-speed Interceptors would be like Charging Zealots, and the attack boost would work well with the "Protoss" way of doing things (at least, from a SC1 point of view. In my opinion, the Protoss are much less about firepower and HP in SC2) ...and obviously, Overloard would basically mirror the Phoenix.

The main advantage to the Overload mechanic, in my eyes, is not even a gameplay advantage. Keeping the Interceptor count low (at 4) would mean fewer Interceptors on screen in large battles. This could be a big deal if you consider that multiple players with Carrier fleets would have hundreds of the things out at a time. Rendering a few hundred 3D models is not quite the same as rendering a few hundred 2D sprites, even taking into account the technological advances we've seen since SC1 was released.

My position is currently more-or less like Aside)-'s: the Escort mechanic is interesting. While we only have the Strike Fighter Escort, there is the possibility of other types of Escorts. Think: Escorts that specialize on AtA or AtG... or perhaps an Escort with extended attack/flight ranges, splash attacks... you can go crazy with these things. Of course, it can be argued that such bonuses can be applied to regular Interceptors, but it cuts off some of the more exotic possibilities from a lore point of view.

Think of the Nomad's Turrets: tons of possibilities. This is what the Escort mechanic is looking like to me.

To really bring some shape to this discussion I ask:

From a gameplay standpoint, why is Escort preferable?
From a gameplay standpoint, why is Overload preferable?

What would each mechanic add in terms of fun and strategic depth?
What would it remove in terms of "cheapness" of the unit, compared to the alternative?

How do we propose other races counter the stronger Carrier?

 

To answer this:
From a gameplay standpoint, why is Escort preferable?
From a gameplay standpoint, why is Overload preferable?

Why do every unit need to have a damn abilities? Im getting sick of this... Starcraft was in a perfect balance of micro:macro, but it seems like Starcraft 2 is turning into Warcraft 3. Its like they want it to have an ability so that it looks like a Capital Ship, but in my eyes it is a capital WITH or WITHOUT escort.

 

I don't understand.

Why do so many people keep assuming that SC1 was the perfect game. What makes you think so? What makes you think that SC2 can't beat out SC1? Just because you haven't played a RTS game better then SC1 doesn't mean that SC1 is the ultimate perfect RTS. No game is perfect and yes, SC1 also has its flaws. The reason that Blizzard is adding more abilities to the unit is because it adds more depth and strategy. This is far from been Wc3. This is large army vs large army game where managing your resources is a vocal point.

Personally, I love the Escorts. Unlike the old Carriers, all you had to do was fill up your interceptor and bam, do some micro and your set. The new Carriers will MAKE YOU THINK. Should i pump out the Escorts right now? Is it going to waste my resources? Is it going to help me win the battle? A lot of different possibilities. Seriously, the old Carrier was lame and not fun. Just build a Carrier and pump out interceptor and there is your unit. This Escort mechanic lets the player decide on whether they should put their resources in depending on the situation. If your a lazy person and just like to build and attack move without thinking much, then maybe this new Carrier isn't a unit for you.

 

The point of Escorts, as have been said before, is so players think before going all out on Carriers. While without Escorts the Carrier is weaker than the SC1 Carrier, with it the new Carrier is likely to be much more powerful than the old. You have to make decisions on what interval to make your Escorts in, how many of them to make, and if you should make them at all, depending on the situation. This Carrier's a lot more flexible than was before, as it starts out powerful, and can use resources to become more powerful for a short period of time. That's the reason it's a better unit than before: flexibility.

 

i like the idea of an escort, as it gives the carrier a greater aa ability, as its deflectors only work against ground units, so maker the interceptors as three max, they go aroung the carrier, they are like interceptors, but dedicated to aa and can be used along side the interceptors. And make them able to overload, but they die once they use it maybe?

 

It also sounds more realistic. In reality you would have a few escorts to protect larger ships from attacks.

Plus it adds more strategy to mass carriers. Before, you would just build them, and maybe a few arbs and observers, and then sit back and watch as you tear abart an expansion. Now you have a new unit ability to have fun with!

 

The idea of the Carrier's Overload does the same thing without detracting from the Protoss mentality. As I said before, Protoss are tough, durable and there to stay. When you buy anything with Protoss it's expensive and you expect it to be there to stay. Escorts do not have that feel. They're temporary. They die or warp out after 45 seconds. Where's the Protoss mentality in that?
Also, it doesn't make it more realistic. You're right in saying that in reality you'd have some escorts to protect larger ships, but if you want escorts, why not use all the other Protoss units that are available to you? Phoenixes for taking out Air targets, Warp Rays for taking out large targets, Observers for detection, etc, etc. The Protoss are already able to have units escorting their Carriers, they don't need some new, flimsy ability tht goes against everything Protoss.

 

So Itza is your problem with the mechanic or the lore behind it? Personally I don't particularly care for the lore behind because I agree it doesn't make sense. Here is what I would suggest to try and clean up this current set up. Have Carriers continue to come into play with 4 Interceptors in it's bay but rasie the new base maximum to 6 So it still takes a little time and minerals to come to full power. And then change the escort ability from warping in a few escort frigates to deploying a few weapons platorms controlled by the Carrier and either have the platforms be able to be recalled and deployed as wanted (with a max of 4) while having them constanly cost minerals to keep powered while deployed or keep the 45 second setup where every 45 seconds they need to be redeployed at a certain mineral cost. (With these "weapon platforms" the mineral cost respresents fuel needed for some kind of reactor to keep them powered)

 

My main problem is with the lore behind it, but I also don't like how they're giving so many units abilities now. If they absolutely have to give the Carrier an ability, they should at least make it suit the Protoss.
You idea of deploying platforms could work, but it might be a bit similar to the Nomad's Auto-Turret. I still don't like the idea of the 45 second timer, but if it has to come into play, I think it would be best if after the timer finishes the platform becomes unpowered, like a Phase Cannon without a Pylon, and the minerals need to be spent to renew it.