Banshee w/ gravity booster engines v.2 (pic).

Also, there's obviously an atmosphere...

 

That screenshot is definitely not a space platform, it's part of a large rock in space which could very well have enough gravity to support the units. However, GRAVITY =/= ATMOSPHERE!!! Think of moons, asteroids or planets like Mercury, all have lots of gravity but they're not in a situation to support an atmosphere, those circumstances are EVERYWHERE.

You obviously like the Banshee the way it is and i empathize with you, but some of us have much grander expectations of SC2 and would like to see it grow. Atmosphere was never a problem in SC1 for any units and there were maps of moons and everything else to battle on.

Why should the Terrans now be restricted by it, it doesn't make any sense, it's taking SC2 in reverse.

Thank you for the recognition, but the first time i and many others saw the Banshee we thought "that looks awesome!" but we also thought "how is that thing going to work on all the Space Platform, moon, asteroid, harsh planet maps that have been made which obviously don't HAVE an atmosphere for a helicopter to work in"!?

I don't know what kind of maps you liked best but these types of maps were the ones i ALWAYS played on. The Banshee might work great for your favorite Jungle maps but what about my favorite maps!

There's a map someone made once of a "moon of char" which they used the Char tileset for. Using craters and other doodads it REALLY looks like a moonscape, it's awesome and it worked for SC1 because no units had atmospheric restrictions by lore!!!

But the Banshee is just a kick in the nuts for me lore wise, it's the only unit out of sync and i'm not asking for much here.


Yes, Blizz eventually came out and made an excuse that Char and the Space Platforms now have atmosphere, but that hardly fixes the situation, ESPECIALLY if they are making the map maker THAT much more unique!

 

Yes, it is the Space Station tile-set. It's just a part where there's no man-made platform. Look at the original announcement video and you'll see that although it's on Space Station, there're still organic parts of the platform.

That's because moons and smaller planets do not, in fact, have a lot of gravity. Seeing as with artificial gravity generators they'd be able to control how powerful the force is, yes, they would be able to sustain an atmosphere of at least one atmospheric pressure.

How is just having the same old jet-propelled ships growing? We've already been told, and can already see, that even Space Stations have artificial gravity generators. If they've got artificial gravity generators, then they can support an atmosphere.

They're not restricted. As we've been told the Banshee was never intended to operate outside of an atmosphere, and seeing as all tile sets have an atmosphere, the Banshee is able to operate in all tile sets.

Those issues have already been addressed. Now you're ignoring lore that's already been established just to say that the Banshee wouldn't work lore-wise.

A moon like Char would almost definitely have a very strong atmosphere for its size. Regardless, although there were no units that were dependant on an atmosphere in StarCraft1, all were dependant of gravity. I don't see you complaining that the gravity's too weak or anything, only that the atmosphere wouldn't be there, for some reason. The gravity's obviously high enough, so it can obviously support an atmosphere.

It's only a kick in the nuts because you're choosing for it to be a kick in the nuts. You're ignoring the lore to say that it doesn't work according to lore. It does. Every location that Terran fight at would need two things, gravity and an atmosphere, which, really, go hand in hand.

An excuse for Char? What excuse? And Space Station obviously had artificial gravity, and what looked like an atmosphere according to some doodads, in StarCraft1, so it's not as though they're making excuses.

 

By that logic, a map covered with water with a few sandy islands wouldn't ACTUALLY be a map of islands but a Jungle since it was done in the "Jungle" tileset.

You don't make maps do you.

Where do you think atmospheres come from? Gravity is directly related to the size of the object, so yes a larger object would have higher levels of gravity. But NO way does that guarantee that it's going to be able to produce or even hold onto an atmosphere. Gravity and atmospheres do not go hand in hand, gravity is simply one prerequisite among hundreds that atmospheres need. That's basic Astronomy.

Yes, i'm sure Terrans use "gravity generators" and could produce their own artificial atmospheres in a few places but what happens when they get attacked on a world without an atmosphere? Ask the Zerg to wait so they create an atmosphere. What if the Protoss are established on a large moon somewhere, are the Terrans going spend a week establishing a proper atmosphere for Banshees. No

I have no idea what you're talking about now, i'm not ignoring any lore here nor have i said that the Banshee contradicts Starcraft "lore".

I don't need the writers at Blizzard to explain to me why helicopters don't work in space, that should be common sense right. And if they want to say that Space Platforms now have atmosphere, or that Char's surface is melted by it's suns but somehow the atmosphere doesn't burn off or that Mutalisks can "flap" their way through space that's fine. Whatever helps fill the holes.

What i AM saying is that there are more map designs out there then just Auir, Tarsonis and Platforms. All are situations that Terrans could get into and many arn't going to have an atmosphere for their helicopters to work in. It's the Banshee's basic helicopter design along with it's lore that are a burden in those situations.

My only suggestion is a simple thruster on the back like this:
http://i36.tinypic.com/sy6lwm.jpg

Come on, it looks cool right! It can hover and maneuver with the turbo fans on planets but when needed in a more dire situation in the absence of an atmosphere it can use the thruster.

Why are you so adamant about keeping the Banshee the way it is if it doesn't even affect your gaming experience?

 

I am just gonna jump right in and uh...

Does giving it a thruster affect your gaming experience? It's only aestethical after all. If you do think so though, then maybe you understand why having an innovative design is so important to some people.
No other unit uses turbo fans, and it gives it that special something. Quiet fans also match well with the ability to cloak.

 

It's become quite a book with that guy hasn't it.

But yes it does affect my game play which was part of my original point. As the new map maker has gotten more advanced and capable of designing a large variety of environments, the Terrans have become limited in the type of environments they can engage in due to the lore that Banshee's are atmosphere only. The "non-atmospheric" map concepts i and many others have made in the past for sc1 won't work anymore without contradicting lore, even though these maps would look SPECTACULAR in SC2!
Just like this:
http://www.starcraft2.com/images/screenshots/ss66.jpg

Besides, i don't want to eliminate the main Turbo Fans either and adding a small thruster doesn't make it's design any less innovative. I would be satisfied even if the thruster only lit up on the "Space" tileset, and they did away with the" planet only" lore of course.
http://i36.tinypic.com/sy6lwm.jpg

I believe we can maintain the innovative design of the Terrans without sacrificing the integrity of the map making community.

 

why don't you make a custom unit for your maps? i don't expect blizzard to have an array of starwars stuff and daleks or tripods for my custom maps.

Gravity is related to mass not size, an asteroid could theoratically be super dense and thus have very high gravity.

Moons do not automatically have no atmosphere.

The only interest terran would have in a world without an atmosphere would be high value mining, in which case they would have a fleet to protect them.

 

we can all say this about gravity..and the science of starcraft...and than what kind of energy zerg use? ATP or..cant we all just use our imaginations and pretend. oh the good ol days..

 

I thought, instead of replying to each point individually, in which case I'd just be repeating myself over and over resulting in a long and tedious post, that I would instead list all the other units that are obviously dependant on an atmosphere in both StarCraft1 and StarCraft2...

Firstly, there's the entire Zerg race. Now we've seen that flyers can survive in a vacuum, so you could always say that the ground-dwellers can as well, but let's face it. It's unlikely. More specifically though, there's the Baneling. If it is as unstable as they said it was, putting it in a vacuum is not going to be the best idea. It obviously requires some sort of atmospheric pressure. Again, you can always whip out the ol' Zerg evolution line, but again, it's unlikely.

As for the Terran, which're the un-debatable ones, there's a whole heap:

There's the Medivac. Not only does it require an atmosphere, but it requires a combustible atmosphere.

Then there's the Firebat. They may be able to work in an incombustible atmosphere if they provided their own oxygen, but would not be able to in a vacuum.

The same goes for the Hellion. It wouldn't be able to fight in a vacuum, and on top of that, its targets wouldn't be able to burn like they do.

Reapers. They breathe through a gas mask, so yes, they, too, need an atmosphere.

Targetting Drones. Same as the Banshee, they operate of rotors.

Burning Terran buildings. How's it going to burn in a vacuum? Again, this would require a combustible atmosphere as well.

Civilians. You all remember them from StarCraft1, and it looks like they're in StarCraft2 as well. How do you expect them to breathe unless they're carrying around huge tanks of oxygen? Yet alone the zero pressure environment they'd be standing in...

Terran heroes. Terran infantry would all be in the same boat, though you could always use the same Terran technology line, just as you could for the Zerg with evolution, but there're a few more clear-cut examples when it comes to heroes. Sarah Kerrigan in StarCraft1 definitely didn't have any pressurised suit nor artificial air supply, so obviously needed an atmosphere. Raynor in StarCraft2 doesn't look as though he'll be the typical suited-up Marine he was in StarCraft1, so would require an atmosphere.

And that pretty much sums it up. Sure, you could come up with an excuse or reason why each one can do what it does, but then you're just searching for a reason for a Banshee design change.

 

We don't know for sure if the zerg breathe or not. What if they don't breathe, and the space station has got to have artificial gravity generators. Anywhere the races are there will be artificial gravity generators, if it's got no gravity. Plus has anyone seen thrusters on the bottom of the banshee? They could have been made to be slient. Anyways they sould be getting the air through normal particles in space, and change them to air. It's a sci-fi game. It doesn't have to work in our perfect little world.

 

This isn't a debate about lore or what units you believe can or cannot survive in space.

Exactly!

As they add more artificial limitations to the game, the less room we have for imaginative interpretation, especially when it comes to map making.

Yes, i know, i didn't want to use big words like "mass" or "density" with ItzaHexGor.

But you've hit a good point about custom maps. The thing is i'm not making "custom campaign" maps to play on my own i'm making tournament quality maps for the entire starcraft community, including you guys.

If you want to check out some the best community maps made, there are these from the last map contest
http://www.blizzard.com/us/blizzcon05/scmap-winners.html

And this site has many of the more familiar community maps out there
http://www.gameflood.com/Games/Inde...tRow=1&intMaxResults=25&intPages_UnitBrowse=1

There is a huge map making community for starcraft and people have even developed more advanced starcraft map editors. This is one of the better ones and Blizzard has taken some ideas from it for SC2 like placing objects on ramps.
http://games.softpedia.com/get/Tools/Starcraft-StarForge.shtml

As part of the map making community, we pride ourselves in creating great looking maps while sticking to the overall lore of the game. By using these new map editors we were able to make maps FAR more engaging and strategically balanced then any of Blizz's "Official" maps while still maintaining the integrity of the game's lore. Like i said earlier, with the creation of the new SC2 map editor the map making community, including myself, is going to be able to make maps we couldn't make before even WITH our custom map editors. One of the best additions to SC2 IMO is the ability to mix tile sets now, like using sand from the "desert" tileset in the "jungle" tileset to make tropical beaches or snow/ice from the "Ice" tileset in the new "shattered city" tileset to make a city destroyed by glaciers.

Just to re-hash my original point, i want to AT THE VERY LEAST be able to make the same "true-to-lore" tournament maps i made for SC1 in SC2 including my non-atmospheric maps. Right now, the ONLY unit restricted by both design AND lore in SC2 to planetary atmospheres is the Banshee.

"As a planetary craft, the banshee wouldn't need high-powered engines to achieve escape velocity and fight in orbit, so instead technicians fitted it with economical twin turbofans. Any air-to-air weaponry was deemed unnecessary: the banshee would only hunt ground targets. Thus, it was equipped with powerful air-to-ground cluster rockets.

The resulting aircraft was cheap, relatively robust, and well suited to its intended role of making tactical strikes on the battlefield. The banshee was adopted by the Dominion as a light infantry support craft that could be quickly transported to any world. Despite the banshee's many fine traits, Dominion commanders initially derided its apparent inflexibility and relegated banshees to a minor support role in backwater militias."

I really think a very slight design tweak is needed to this unit and it's lore changed a bit so that every unit used in multiplayer games can be interpreted as having non-atmospheric capabilities again. This simple change would allow the map making community to take far more liberties in their maps and create a more diverse selection of competitive maps for everyone to play on.

Imagine this map: using Snow/Ice/Bluedirt and Lava in the "space" tileset, you could create a frozen planetoid that has drifted too close to the planet in the background and has become volcanically active as the gravitational forces begin to rip it apart. However, being rich in vespene and other resources, the factions in the area begin racing to harvest all that they can before it crashes into the planet's surface.

 

No, it's a debate about the Banshee's feasibility in a vacuum. Seeing as almost everything, not just the Banshee, on the Terran's side indicates that it's inside of an atmosphere, I'd say any problems with the Banshee's rotors can be dismissed as irrelevant due to it being clear that there is, in fact, an atmosphere.

Just to recap, here's all the Terran stuff you ignored that also shows they require an atmosphere:

• The Medivac - Uses jet engines.
• Firebat - Uses a flamethrower.
• Hellion - Also uses a flamethrower.
• Reaper - Wears a gas mask.
• Targeting Drone - Uses rotors.
• Terran buildings - Burn when damaged.
• Civilians - No means of surviving in a vacuum.
• Terran infantry - Debatable, but highly unlikely to be fully pressurised and carrying around their own oxygen.
• Terran heroes - No means of surviving in a vacuum. They're not even always fully self contained like most Terran infantry are.

Just as a footnote, you do realise that if there's no atmosphere, it's a vacuum, right? There's no difference, in regards to atmospheric pressure, between floating around in space and standing on the surface of a planet without an atmosphere.

Stylish. Blaming me for your own stupidity.

You seriously didn't read what I'd written. The Banshee is far from being the only unit restricted to an atmosphere. If you're going to pick on any individual unit, pick on the Medivac. It's even more limited than the Banshee. Not only does it require an atmosphere, but it requires a combustible atmosphere.

On top of that, if you're wanting to make not having an atmosphere more real, you're also going to have to either contest or exclude Firebats, Hellions, Reapers, Targeting Drones, potentially all other Terran infantry, any Civilians or Terran heroes if you wanted to make use of them, and, of course, any Terran buildings. They all require an atmosphere.

Again for the stragglers, Banshees, Medivacs, Firebats, Hellions, Reapers, Targeting Drones, Civilians, certain Terran heroes, potentially all other Terran infantry, and all Terran buildings require an atmosphere.

I don't see why that planet cannot have, or hold, an atmosphere, especially with evidence of volcanic activity, but you've raised another interesting point. Vespene geysers would require an atmosphere. If there wasn't one, all the gas would simply, and immediately, disperse.

 

^^ "called Down The Thunda!!!"

 

the gravity booster/engines just looks better imo.

 

Then it's just a personal opinion, and there's no reason for it to be changed when the majority seem to be in favour of the rotors. For another example, I hate the current Ultralisk model, but everyone else seems to like it. It could look so much better in my eyes, but I'm not expecting a change. I'm hoping for one, but I'm far from expecting one.

 

yeah, the banshee is pretty sweet thinks I.

 

Exactly, and it doesn't break lore any more than any Terran building does.

 

I really like the current banshee's design. Looks very terranish.