ZvT Marine Marauder push. (early game).

I've had issues with FE Protoss players. Just a quick update, Ive been doing alot better against them lately, now I find myself having issues with Marine Marauder Terran players.

Usually about 7 minutes into the game is when the downfall begins. Most of the games I play vs MM Terran players dont go beyond 12 minutes. The Marine Marauder push overwhelms my army regardless what I do.

I usually open up with the standard Roach build. 13 pool. 14 gas, 15 OL, 17 queen (when pool spawns) and 18 Roach Warren. From there on I would inject larva and have abotu 8 Roaches once the Roachwarren spawns and after I would either attack my opponents base which is usually walled in with a couple marines and maruaders in the backfield and/or tech to lair and expand if I feel that its a waste of time trying to attack my opponents front gate.
I know the key is to harass, but I dont have to many options early in game.

The problem is... once the Terran player has a considerably huge force thats when all hell breaks loose. I've been watching my own replays and I am never behind in economy and population count. Its just that I feel my roaches doesnt fair up against the MM combo unless I have a larger force which is quite impossible to do early in the game given the fact that I also have to keep my economy sustained.
I do not have the time or resources to tech to Spire and spawn a nice amount of mutas. I've also tried banelings but its very gas heavy and usually half of them doesnt even make it to the target since Marines and Marauders are range units. However in a larger map I usually have time to tech hydras. But given the short amount of time I have, I can only make so many Hydras to back up my Roaches.
I will admit, I completly ignore speedlings. I just feel that my resources are better spent on the heavier armored Roaches Which also have range. I've tried the zergling roaches tactic but it seems that the lings melts right away once it gets close enough to attack. Its because of those damn marines. If thats the problem let me know, because at this point I am willing to try out any other tactic I can early in game.

I am in the Platinum league, ranked 38. 44-34. Ive been losing lately ever since Ive gone into the Platinum league. Let me know what you guys think!. Thanks in advance.

 

I think you're generally doing it right but you're leaning too heavily on the Roaches. Roaches are an initial push unit and then they don't become useful again until you've upgraded their armor or given them something else like burrowed movement.

You have two options here that I can see, one is to FE and macro your army more, creating more Hydralisks (Because that's the real counter to M&M), or go Banelings and burrow them in the path of the incoming army. Then detonate them as they pass over. This will cause the Terran to have to invest in detection (scan isn't going to get them across the map).

Your other option is to harass the Terran more. He's going to have a really hard time pushing you if he's dealing with crap in his base. You could go with a Nydus Worm to his rear, etc.

Lastly I would suggest utilizing more Overlords with Drop Creep and Creep Tumors so that you take advantage of that 30% speed boost which is the bane of all Terran players. Oh, and another note Cracklings are ridiculously good against infantry because you can flank and harass the army so easily. Just don't let them reach critical mass.

 

Thanks Joneagle.
Im a bit skeptical with the Baneling burrow tactic. I know it would work wonders if it was done flawlessly however it sounds a bit risky to me and if all fails it could mean instant GG. It just sounds like a huge sacrifice in gas and tech time to me. But hey practice makes perfect and I should consider it.

The nydus works wonders, but in most cases I never go past mid game vs terran. So any hive tech discussion is pretty useless for me. (no offense). I just can never make it that far when I am held in this situation.

I was curious about a fast expo Hydralisk build. Is there a popular one out there? In a map like Lost temple, where it is fairly easy to defend your choke with a couple spinecrawlers and lings might work well. What do you think?

Don't quote the post directly above your own.

 

It's just like in SC1. Don't you remember pros fending off M&M attacks with 4 sunkens in a straight line? Works wonders in pushing Terran off until mid-game when they grab Siege Tanks.

Your job as Zerg (in yCH's words) is to delay the Terran ball of death until you can pick it to pieces or cut off its head (harass the main base). It's all about map control. So if you can delay him and force him to do a slow march toward your base, you can usually blunt him enough with repeated attacks to make his force less effective. The Banelings serve as the slow-down (or if he ignores them the killing blow).

Trust me, the Banelings work. Why? Because it requires that the Terran get consistent detection. So it's either going to totally demolish his army or it's going to delay him incredibly giving you time to spread all over the map and fight him for map control. He's going to have to tech to Ravens to be effective against burrowed Banelings. Unless he's going Hellion/Tank which is unlikely against Zerg. This'll push the advantage toward you.

As far as a Hydra build I would try to the spine crawlers with speedlings and a massive tech toward Hydra. But you also have to be aware that the Terran is going to FE when he sees that you're walled up, so you're going to need something else to help you expand too like Banelings.

 

Upgraded zerglings counter marauders. Banelings counter m+m (but require shielding/diversion to make it to their target). Mix in some ranged if able to ff targets down.

Burrowed banelings do work. Unlike against zerg or protoss opponents it is much less risky to lose units to a detector that way too (although I usually have a sacrificial zergling burrowed ahead of the banelings to alert for a mobile detector).

I've seen more and more marauders lately over reaper rushes, probably specifically in response and to counter things like roaches, which is too bad because I've always found reaper builds easy to defend against as zerg (Queen makes it too easy imo).

 

Yeah I've noticed that it's basically impossible to Reaper rush a Zerg unless you have at least 4. And even then it's tough. Because once they get Zergling speed it's just impossible. I feel like the Queen should be classified as a "Light" unit.

 

ok thanks you two. looks like i have to focus on banelings.

anyways, ive been watching Idra replays on youtube, are there anymore popular zerg players whom I can learn from by watching??

 

I have seen many effective roach/hydra's face off well against MM. The key is to get the correct balance of Hydra's and Roach's. Too little roachs and your hydra's get worked and too little Hydra's and you can't do enough damage to them to win. It is worth noting that Hydra's without the range upgrade are extremely weak. They have a pretty solid attack speed and deal fine damage. As zerg always look for an opportunity where there is a lull in the game to get to hydra's as soon as possible. They make your life soo much easier.

Note: Sheth(Z) v Qxc(T) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEpi_vYlFOQ it is 3 parts make sure to find the other two.

 

thanks watching the video right now

 

Wow this video is one big FAIL to show us how to deal as Zerg against MMM. Terran basically only built them the whole game while Zerg even had Tier 3.5 units Broodlords and still failed to really do anything.

This just confirms what I think about terran already. In Sc1 having Guardians in the fights I seen in the video would have meant victory. I must say Zerg is so pathetic in SC2 it is not even funny anymore.

 

speaking of which guys, when exploding banelings while theyre burrowed, does that still do full damage?

 

I also have had these same questions. A lot have been answered so far, but I'd a bit more in depth answer about the following solutions.

How are Hydralisks the counter to the MMM ball? Is it because the Roaches are in front, so they take the damage with their heavier armor and much less squishy self?

How does one harass with cracklings/speedlings? I can see them moving in, hitting something, them moving away super quick, but they are still moving in, and out of range for only a could attacks. Furthermore, how does one do this? Is it an A-attack on the area behind the infantry, or do you right-click on a specific unit?

P.S. When people say to "A-attack" something, do they mean press 'a' and click on a unit, or beyond/not-on the units?

 

In my experience Hydras are not a counter to MMM ball. Not even to MM(Marauder, Medivac).

Infestors would be if marauders didn't have the huge range they have. This way, entangling them does **** to help Zerg. Not only that, Marauders have a really small collision, smaller then Hydras, I seen most Marauders shooting while Hydras with range upgrade trying to maneuver to position. It is seriously ****ed up.

Do not even think about building Roaches, they are armored units and marauders destroy them. Banelings do not work as well unless you have them burrowed where they pass and you unburrow them next to them. But with 125 hp and banelings doing extra damage to light units they are not that good. Also I seen Terrans scan ahead of their path and this fails (or bring a Raven).

I tried Ultras but they are even worse them Hydras, at least one die before hitting anything. One usually runs around while fighting with his AI and others do something sometimes unless he focus fires them and as ultras being armored does crazy damage to them with stimpack. I remember the time Terran needed tanks or BC to stop a couple of ultras.

Only mutas and Broodlords do something but mutas are obliterated by Thors and by the time you have a sufficient number of Broodlords Terran has already walked over your troops and bases.

Zerg really needs a serious counter to Marauders then Broodlords. A counter that anyone can use, not only Platinum players.

 

Uhm ... that really works? That means, I played about 200 matches (1on1 and 2on2) without knowing that and perhaps lost half of my banelings to ranged units, cause I tried to run into them, while they stood there and shot at the banelings? :laugh:

And what about the damage? As a post above there asks. Is it still the full damage?

Hm, you really think so? I had quite a good experience with that. But perhaps that because I am only a silver league (pre patch 13) player ...

About the rest of your post: I already won games against a MM or MMM Terran. IMHO it is not only possible for platinum players. Remember, if you play against a silver league Terran that means, he is not that good, too. Perhaps his macro or micro is worse or what so ever. So, I think there is no big difference, as long as the two opponents are on the same level.

As Zerg I have for example a lot more problems against Protoss (funnily against almost ANY combination of units) than against Terran's using MM / MMM. But, again, perhaps that only counts for silver league ...

 

heres a quick update. ive improved alot.
i normally always open up with roaches, i just cant help but take advantage of their armor early game. i would do the standard roach rush and open up with 7-8 roaches.

id take them into his front door and take a peak at what he has. if i see a couple marauders id tech lair and upgrade speedlings and pop up a hydralisk den. and ill expand a little afterwords until i have a decent size army.

i found that speedlings and hydralisk works best for me.

 

Yup, that really works. Burrowed Banelings do the same amount of damage and same AoE as unburrowed.

 

Try infestors. Fungal growth wrecks MM, and is one of the few great uses of it.

 

yeah i know. but as stated im just having problems early game. about 10 minutes into the game.

 

Zergling harass is key. I have lost 2 games total to zerg so far, and one was to my very talented friend. Being able to occupy the terran while you get mutas/lings/banelings/hydras. Start with ling harass, if they wall off maybe try a baneling bust. Try and make the terran use stim early when he pushes out so his units don't have enough health. If you just sit back you won't be able to beat the terran.