Zerg's deevolution -- or so i see it.

Before I start -- Yes, I know that this is only a beta. And that there's lots of changes to be made yet to the zerg (and to all races).

This is my perception of where the zerg are and lists some issues I hope get addressed by game time.

Ahem*

I feel like the zerg by and large have devolved in terms of ability in the beta. We've lost a few useful spells (parasite, darkswarm, plague) at least one unit that MAY come back at some point (lurkers) and managed to somehow lower the effectiveness of a few of the still-existing units. Some of the issues with the zerg that, in my eyes, were a problem in the first game have been exacerbated (or in cases where they were solved by BW, we've lost the solutions) and I'm wondering why.

I'll start with spells.

Darkswarm. This allowed the zerg some measure of protection from ranged attacks on their ground troops. Ground units are zergs main point of strength, as it takes a while to get to a point where
A. You can produce viable air units
or
B. Enough of the less viable units to make a difference

Ground game is where the zerg excel, and dark swarm was an excellent way of defending against the ranged attacks of other races. We've lost that entirely.

Plague -- extremely potent on ANY race AND buildings...it was a key offensive strategy and could make or break a battle. Over the period of effect, it could do 300 damage. This has been nixed for fungal growth...which does 36 max damage and temporarily immobilizes troops.

IMO, fungal growth is a poor substitute for plague -- as you can't "soften the enemy up" with it as well as plague, and it doesnt do nearly the same damage.

Parasite -- great for passive scouting and laying on critters randomly on the map. It'd be a boon to have in conjunction with our new nydus worms (one of the things i think blizz has implemented extremely well).

Spawn Broodling deserves and honourable mention here. I loved sploding tanks with it, but it was fairly micro intensive...

Units

I feel like we kind of got screwed on ground units.

Lurkers. We've lost the lurker. (Yes, I know it might show up in an expansion or in the actual game. My point is that it isn't here NOW. We had it before, and now it is gone...why?) It allowed us at least a bit of protection from early assaults and gave us some siege capability. Awesome in conjunction with darkswarm!

Ling and BLings rock --- I get a lot of use out of them and I can't complain.

Hydras. Now cost two supply, are tier two, are more expensive AND move slower. How on earth is this evolution?

Roaches -- interesting game play element that recently got nerfed....which is fine by me...a ranged unit that can't shoot down anything in the air seems half-done anyway, so i try not to use them. For the money and supply, I'd rather go with a real ranged unit -- the hydra. Which is still the only ranged unit we really have on the ground. I'd be okay with roaches if they had anti air capability...but alas.

Ultralisks -- still gum up the works RE troop movements, have been seriously nerfed...between it and the infestor's new bloodlust spell, it feels like Blizz is basically trying to force us into using them like bloodlusted Ogres in WarCraft II.

Overlords Okay ii i could accept the argument that having detectors by default has always been unfair. That doesnt mean i have to like that we don't anymore

The air has improved thankfully -- broodlords are improved versions of guardians, which rock. Corruptors lost the ability to corrupt other units, but actually work well...mutas don't seem so bad (and i actually prefer that they don't stack as they did in BW) The air, while still not as good as the other races, has improved...the devourer, for example, was one of the worst investments ever...and mutas were only really useful in groups of 36+.

In General the zerg have changed...but not for the better on all fronts. A few patches back, the zerg were actually pretty equal to the other races...with the last slew of patches (nerf zerg, buff terran, ignore toss, repeat) it seems like we're being encouraged away from the zerg..unless you like playing with the odds against you.

By the way, does it seem like the hatches spawn larvae a bit slower in this game? Almost as if using the queen to spawn more is a requirement? My desktop was crap, so it lagged up all the time anyway...couldnt get an accurate read on how long a larva took to develop, but it felt aeons slower than BW.

This, coupled with the recent changes to Ultralisks and Infestors make me feel like blizzard is making changes to discourage or force specific strategies or choices. upping the supply of roaches and hydras so they cant be massed easily..making them slow so you can't aggress with them. slowing down larva production to force queen use. Nerfing the ultra and giving the infestor bloodlust in order to force them to be used in tandem (if you want to use them effectively at least)

Between my enjoyment of the zerg, hardware issues and penchant for the dramatic, it's entirely possible that i'm imagining all this, but that's what it feels like to me.

In short, quite a few of the things that made the zerg dangerous (or at least competitive) before have been nixed in favour of....nothing near as good.

 

You state a lot of interesting points. I was thoroughly disappointed when I found out that there was not parasite in SC2. I always loved that feature in the original SC. Instead now for a recon unit the Zerg have the changeling which is alright.

The hydralisks are higher tier units now and cost as much as they do because they are a lot more buffed now and are well rounded. I honestly skip roaches completely and tech straight to hydralisks because they not only attack ground but air as well.

As for the lurkers, I for one never found them attractive. Sure I used them all the time but only because most Zerg did in BW and I take advantage of all the games additions.

Pretty much it's supposed to be a requirement. Once you get the hang of it, It's not that difficult to once in a while spawn some larvae. It helps build up your macro skills anyways. It really helps your economy and army if you can get a queen at each of your expansions and at the right time spawn larvae.

As a pro-Zerg point of view player, I agree with a lot of your points you stated above. I also hate the recent changes to the Ultralisk in Patch 13 which makes it more of a solely fighting unit against the Protoss and buildings.

 

Hydras - big time stagnant unit, never got the a boost besides the default increased damage to specific targets which is also a common mechanic to other races. I still like the old slimy spine graphic of their attack animations instead of their current almost less visible and silent spines.

Ultralisks - I wouldnt say that this unit got nerfed that bad, just by this unit having cleaving damage is already a boost. We should also consider that its current HP is still bigger by 50 HP compared to SC1. Burrow is also one of its new tricks but almost pointless since having meatshields is all about frontward exposure and less hideousness.

Infesters vs Defilers - still no doubt that dark swarm and plague are much more valuable than neural parasite, and fungal growth. Unless they do something about the infestor, zergs ground army will always tend to be demolished late game.

Generally - we want justice for the zerg and we expect more balances and changes once the game launches. personally I still miss a lot of sc1 zerg units especially the defiler. Its got the answer for all the troubles the zerg has.

 

Thanks for the support guys! I'm glad I'm not the only one that's feeling this way.

I did want to answer this specifically:

You're absolutely right -- you get used to it after a few games. I usually have 2 queens in base and one per expo pumping larvae -- getting into that habit isn't all that hard. My issue with it is precisely that it has become a requirement. IMO, the only units that should be required are miners...I've won a lot of games using only one type of unit. Sure it would have been helpful to mix it up, but I managed it just to say that I could.

I don't think any of the other races have any such requirements. Terrans have mules which are helpful..and toss has that pylon effect thingie that speeds up mining. Both are helpful, but I've won games having never used either.

Zerg is different...you cannot hope to out-produce the enemy unless you have Queens. I think it's a problem, as zerg are naturally supposed to be quick producers. All units come from one building..but if that building is producing larvae too slowly, it's over. I think the queen's proximity should naturally speed up/increase larva production...because if you're using the queen correctly, you'll hardly ever have energy for other tasks around the base.

I think my problem with a lot of the changes is that I seem to have fewer choices RE what I want to do in game. There's a diff between suggested and required applications, and this stems from a lack of unit diversity.

Terrans have had and still do have at least 4 ranged attackers (marauder, marine, reaper, tanks, vikings kinda, thors), and toss have immortals, stalkers, archons, and collosi.

Zerg have hydras and roaches (the latter of which have pitiful range). So they've got to build many more melee than ranged units and toss enough at the enemy to eventually win. It feels like zerg strategy is less about overwhelming force and more about acceptable losses.

If the whole thing were a conversation with Blizz, it'd go like this:

Blizz: Hey! How ya doin? Okay, these are the zerg, Their units are a tad flimsy, so you'll need to make more of them, but they're pretty cheap and they build fast. Okay?

Player: Okay...Oh! I'm rocking the haus here! I can mass hydralisks and roaches pretty well and stand up to the other races!

B: Okay, thats good....but.....how about we make hydras and roaches cost 2 supply? That way you can't make as many?

P: Wha? Umm..alright....I guess. Say, I'm noticing that my larvae aren't spawning as quick as they used to. Whazaap?

B: Oh, that.. *whispers* use a queen!

P: But...I really just kinda want to build units that can fight off the constant attacks of my enemies..

B: Queens can do that! Is for to build queens. Now.

P: Ooookay....hmm..you know, it actually is kind of a capable fighter after all! Thx, Blizz!

B: Told ya! Now what I'm thinking is this: We take away the attack strength and speed from the queen...that way you can't really fight stuff with it!

P: But you just said....hmph. Okay...I guess I'll just keep it in the base for spawning larvae.

B: It has other spells too! Try transfusion and creep tumour!

P: But the queen isnt fast or hardy enough to transfuse units in battle and live...and doesn't really help buildings a whole heckuva lot....and besides, if i do that, then i can't make enough larvae.

B: This is true. Forget I said that!

P: ......Say, where's the lurkers?

B:...oh! lookie Ultralisk!

P: Dude, that costs like 8 supply, 300 everything, needs two upgrades to make it even aiight, can't hit stuff that's far away AND can't move with the rest of my army without blocking everything. Lurkers are a better investment. Where they at?

B: Well, we kinda nixed them...it seems people were actually winning fights with it. Can't have that!

P: ...!

B: Anyway, the ultra looks better! It's like a rhinocerelephant with thorns. And it burrows, just like a lurker!

P: But can it attack while burrowed?

B: Not so much. But check this out! *tweak*

P: Wait..you just took away hit points and attack points. weren't you supposed to make it...i dunno, better?

B: We did! Here's what you do. Build an infestor, and then use bloodlu...I mean frenzy on the ultralisk. It'll attack better!

P: But it can't get around the other troops to get to the enemy. Plus it gets killed before getting there because of the whole hitpoints thing.

B: Yea....say, have you tried Terran? We just buffed the MMM ball.....

 

1. swap hydra and roach den give back the unburrowed regen of roaches + faster burrow speed +2 armor then make it cost 100/50 supply 2, weaken hydras to 8 damage, 70/75hp have it's movement speed upgrade back and make it cost 75/25 supply 1

2. ultra 600hp 300/200 cost 25+20 damage smaller unit size 100% cleave

3. fungal growth, no damage, make the unit unable to attack and move

4. dark *&*%#R*!^& swarm!

there ya go, balanced. no matter what they give the other races, once they do this to the zerg, i'll quit complaining

 

well, with the frenzy spell i think a base 20/20 damage on the ultra would work. but give it 100% cleave.

buff the roach back up to 1 supply, but give zergs dark swarm. roaches will go back to being a early-to-mid-game main unit and a late-game support unit, instead of just that one unit that you can use the entire game. keep the ultras at 450HP, again because of dark swarm.

reduce neural parasite's range (infestor can get a lot closer thanks to dark swarm).

change dark swarm properties: 100% chance for ranged attacks to miss, unless there is a detector spotting. a purely-100%-chance-to-miss, plus more powerful ultras, banelings, roaches, would be kinda broken in SC2. especially when terrans don't have irradiate any more, protoss don't have reavers, etc.

 

@deth moad ue, that was hilarious... but also depressingly true. If you think about everything that the terran were given... walls that can be lowered, buildings fly 2x as fast, beefed up bio, excellent harrasing units (reapers and hellions) more diverse mech and improved better tanks, starport units that are extremely effective against both ground and air and are relatively cheap, mules, buffed capital ship (BC's), I mean WTF. I love zerg and always played them in BW, but ZvT in SC2 is getting to the point where I feel like I have no shot unless my opponent is considerably worse than me. sigh

 

I agree, Zerg was a race in BW that made you bunker up and hide and play tricks to weaken. Now they are a race that you push, and push, and push and kill (as a Terran). In most ZvT games Terran always pushes me and keeps attacking me until I die (most of the time) or get Broodlords (rarely survive until that point).

If I play a smaller map of a bigger map but we are next to each other I am dead. I BW everyone feared Zerg if they were closest to you. Hilarious how sc2 screwed Zerg.

 

It's nice to know i'm not crazy! I can't account for the other races, but wee seem to have lost a few units (lurks, defilers, scourge, queen, guardian) and gained a few new ones (infestor, corruptor, brood lord, baneling, roach, queen, overseer) and have ended up with only two (maybe 2.5 if you consider overseer) new units....the other races seem like they've gotten more to work with.

I'm only going on feeling here -- but it feels like shafted...because what we got in exchange is often not as good as what we lost.

Roaches in exchange for lurks. Lurks were better than roaches IMO anyway, and then roaches got nerfed.

Infestor in exchange for defiler. Defiler is clearly the better choice. Plague? Darkswarm? Plus energy as long as you've got zerglings around. Infestors have a cool slime trail. That's about it.

Corruptor in exchange for devourer. Okay..Devourer was garbage. Corruptor is better, but it's like comparing badly bruised fruit to rotted fruit. The bruised stuff is edible, but it still kinda sucks.

Guardians exchanged for broodlords. Broodlords are pretty awesome. Then they got nerfed.

Scourge in exchange for banelings. Banelings rock, but it makes it harder to fight off air since zerg air has always been a weak point. Plus hydras (our ONLY ground based anti air fighter (pshh..queens) have been nerfed. 2 supply, slow movement (how on earth does losing an upgrade count as evolution?)

And what frustrates me is the systematic weakening of the zerg after having been neglected new units/mechanics wise in the first place. I read a post by someone that thought a zerg unit (that has already been nerfed) should be further weakened because it sees a lot of use. He also argued that the unit was too cost-effective (How can it be too cost effective? Shouldn't they ALL be cost effective? Who would use a unit that wasn't??)
I feel like that's what blizz is doing. We use (one of our few) good units, so blizz weakens it to get us to use other ones. Why not make more units? Or make the units we've got more appealing?

You've got 5 toys. 2 of them are good, 3 of them are boring or crappy. You want people to play with the undesirable toys, so you take a hammer to the good ones. Why not make the not-so-good ones better?

Terran was fairly dominant in BW. You mass tanks and vikings (extreme/not very good example, I know, but basically terran mech was extremely hard to deal with) and nothing's touching you.

I went with it -- the odds were against me but I managed! If we're going to stack the deck again (and i'd much prefer BALANCE to that), then this round, shouldn't the zerg be the dominant race? Toss has been scattered across the universe, terran's been having issues...and zerg have been waiting and "evolving". They launched a surprise attack that lead to terrible, terrible damage and billions of casualties.

Lore-wise, zerg should be powerful. We shouldn't be losing units and spells in exchange for shoddy imitations, we should have what we had and more...and have improved on what we have. I don't want zerg to be dominant. I just want them to be able to be a match for the other races at all tiers. In BW, zerg felt weaker but held their own (you had maybe a 45-47% chance of winning). As of right now in Beta, zerg has something like a 35-40% chance.

Or so it feels.

I'm seeing a lot of steps backwards to begin with, then a weakening of the regressed units and spells we got stuck with.

i would like to see:
Lurkers.
At least one more ground based ranged unit. Something like a ground based guardian. It doesn't have to hit air, but lobbing acid for explosive damage at siege range or slightly less would be awesome.

Defiler spells -- we can nix infested terran, fungal growth and neural parasite.

Overseer -- lose infested terran AND/OR changeling in exchange for parasite ala BW queen)

Ultralisk -- ability to step over other units or push them out of the way. that would fix a LOT of the issues it has.
Zerg air unit on par with battle cruiser or carrier. Large, can hit ground AND air.
Roaches -- range on par with hellions.
Overlords -- I'm fine with having to upgrade for detection -- having detectors all the time wasn't really fair. Now that that's not an issue, they should come standard with speed upgrades..though at least that upgrade is cheap.

Though from a technical perspective, I'd probably have better luck asking Blizz to pay for my new machine, I don't think this is that hard....I just want more choices like the other races have!

All i want is to not have to "do more with less". I do that every day at my job (ahh, the joys of our economy) and it's not fun to have to do the same in my favourite game.

 

Hmm. Everything seems like a forward step to me.

Queens. Before, you had to spend 300 minerals on a redundant hatchery just to get enough larva. Now you spend 150 minerals for the same thing, only it's also a unit that can defend your base, spread creep, and heal buildings.

Creep. Now speeds up every ground unit except drones. Also, overlords can make more of it instantly, and queens have a free ability to spread it semi-permanently.

Banelings replaced lurkers. Sure they aren't as strong and they tend to kill themselves, but they are a tier 1 unit and are far more versatile since they can just run in and explode, rather than having to spend two minutes burrowing while they get shot by 30 marines.

Roaches. Try researching burrow. You will find they no longer suck.

Hydralisks. Yes they are more expensive, but they do MUCH more damage. Before it was 10 explosive damage, meaning a measly 5 damage against small targets. Now it's 12 damage to everything. That's a pretty ludicrous boost in attack power.

Overseers replaced flying queens. Flying queens were worthless. Even worse, you had to build their worthless house to get to tier 3. Overseers have similar scouting and harassing abilities, except that they give 8 supply.

Corrupters replaced devourers. Corrupters actually have a use, which is to wreck battlecruisers and carriers.

Brood lords replaced guardians. Obviously much stronger now.

Infestors replaced defiler. Dark swarm was too much of a game changing ability, if a zerg wanted it, pretty much the only other units he could get were zerglings, lurkers, and ultralisks. It's removed so that roaches and hydras can be more useful in more matchups. And it's replacement is a tier 2 unit that costs far less gas, has a skill that immobilizes enemies for 2 hours while dealing damage, and has mind control.

Scourges. Were way too situational, being stupidly OP against certain flying units while being useless against other flying units that could micro to kill them.

 

To be sure, there HAVE been some improvements -- the queens are easy enough to get used to and if you make multiple ones, each can have a role in either larva development or creeping....and the overlord power IS handy!

The on-creep speed bonus is good, though because of my hardware issues (my comp was 6 years old) everything was slow...it seemed like they were normal speed on creep and slow off it.

Blings are one of the few units i liked out of the gate...the mine feature is awesome! but cost/benefit-wise, they arent as good as lurks for ambush...because you can use a lurker over and over. I'll say again, I loooove banelings, but lurks would be nice to have.

Roaches/Burrow -- i ALWAYS research burrow -- part of how i keep an eye on expos....the moving while burrowing is handy, and i think roaches are okay...i just don't like
A. their (lack of) range
B. the fact that they now cost two supply.

hydras -- you may have a point...i'm not too good at recognizing explosive damage and calculating type of damage vs armor and all that. And i admit this is a failing on my part -- I'd probably be more effective if i took such things into account. The way I see it though, the hydra was great in SC1, was great in SC2 only not costs more....not sure if the "boost" was worth the cost!

Flying Queens -- i liked them for parasite, but yea..having to build the queens nest was a bother...now we have to build an infestation pit to go T3 -- which i still don't like...i rarely used flying queens, and i rarely use infestors. If the overseer had parasite, though...that'd rock.

Corruptors -- MUCH better than devourers...but i still feel like zerg air lacks,

Guardians/Brood Lords -- i thought guardians rocked, and so do Brood Lords...they toss frickin broodlings at you. I love it! One of the other changes I'm really pleased with! I wish they had lowered the cost to compensate for the nerf, but still...great unit.

Now..I wholly disagree with your assessment of Dark Swarm....It's useful for pretty much any ground unit we have, and since we're mostly ground units, it rocked. using it in conjunction with lurks saved my hide on lots of occasions, and it's helped me take down air units with hydras (or other ranged units that i could keep away from my cloud. I still had plenty of options RE units when I used Dark Swarm.

It's great for melee units, true, but it works everywhere. I frankly don't see how removing it would make any unit more useful..esp. since roaches and hydras have a melee attack as well. it'd arguably server them better than it served units in SC1.

Also -- i'm not certain how long fungal growth immobilizes troops -- but I'm sure 2 hrs is a bit much. Neural parasite is pretty horrid IMO...you can't move away from the unit or do anything else and it's not permanent. i'd be happier with it if it could be cast from underground.

Scourge were awesome, i think -- situational, maybe, but so are most units. Ultras, for example, are useful in like...1 situation...broodlords...only in situations where there's stuff on the ground. You could make that argument about any unit that can only strike ground or air...and i'd agree they were overpowered IF Zerg had a capital ship with which it could respond to battle cruisers and carriers. In absence of serious air units, we got scourge. Any air unit that could shred them wholesale (vikings, for example) were usually units that you'd be better off fighting from below anyway!


I'll say this -- you make some good points, and not everything about SC2 zerg is horrid -- though my posts may seem kinda "doom and gloom". There's some good stuff! Nydus worms, Queens to an extent, banelings, broodlords....but the amount of stuff that is either wrong or being made worse overshadows the positive points.

 

On top of the armor and HP nerf on broodlords, am I the only one that thinks it's a massive nerf that brood lords are morphed from corrupters and not mutas? Against terran in SC1, it was very easy to transition from a muta harass into guardians b/c you could just use up any left over mutas. Now you have to build expensive corrupters that have basically no use outside of countering Collosi (no one really uses capital ships), and this makes the speed and cost of getting brood lords much worse.

 

On the other hand, Brood Lords own the crap out of Guardians any day.

 

Roaches are a lot more useful against Protoss than lurkers ever were.

 

Hello

I agree with pretty much everything in post one.

I don't have the time for a long detailed reply here, but i hope blizzard still read these threads and consider these changes. I'm currently in platinum, almost in diamond, so i know how to play the game.

My concerns as a Zerg only player going from SC1 to SC2 is that I am almost always in a position where I skip playing tech one units because Zerg servilely need anti air earlier, I find allot of people rush for Air to ground units against zerg because they know this. I find this sad because I don't get to use low tech units as much as I like, and I feel I'm always in a rush to tech up while at the same time ensuring my defense against a rush.

I also strongly feel zerg spells are week compared with other races. Zerg used to have great spells, spawn brooding were great against tanks which i find a great threat now. Dark spawn was great, but of not used correctly cause also cause it to benefit the opponent and reverse effect on you if you had not melee. plague was great way to apply allot to damge to masses so that you could finish them off (if did not affect protoss shields)

The new spells are lacking greatly. The fungal growth is OK, I think it needs to do 50 damage, so that it ALMOST kills upgraded marines.

Not sure what to think of the new frenzy ability. I rearly have heavy units to use it on, seems a waste for small units, so i think its only effective late game.

The corruptions ability is good I guess, i use it against massive units.

now the ability I hate the most is the spawn infested terran, 1 infested terran for 125 energy.. compare that to a hunter seeker missile, or a yamoto cannon, or the psy storm, so much energy for something that will kill 1 maybe two SCVs. The other races could go so much more damage with their ability and this is insulting for the zerg. even the ravens auto turret drop would kill more SCVs then a infested terran, and I'm pretty sure its only 50 energy. so you could drop two for less energy the one infested terran.

The infested terran ability sucks and I have no need for it. I use it because its there. but the other races have far greater options. This needs some serious attention.

So in summary: Zerg need stronger spells as they are weak in comparison to other race spells.
Zerg need some anti air sooner like they did in SC1. oh and bring back the lurker and the scourge please.

 

"am I the only one that thinks it's a massive nerf that brood lords are morphed from corrupters and not mutas? "

OH YES i agree. I once built a few corrupter ready to morph into broodlords, before I could I was attacked with ground units... my corrupter were useless here. they should morph from a BASE unit not a specialize unit.

 

agree, they should morph from mutas, mutas throw out worms, they throw out broodlings, it does make sense no?

they should really give back dark swarm, zerg has no ground siege unit, they should give back the lurker, or buff back the roach since it's already 2 supply

 

No lurkers please.

 

i'd prefer lurkers if they aren't gonna do something about the roaches, either that, or just return the unburrowed regen

 

How did Roaches replace Lurkers? I think Lurkers are way better. You could take on a whole Protoss ground army without really taking any losses. Put the Lurkers all around your choke, put Dark Swarm over them, also put some Hydras and Lings over the Lurkers so they have to kill them first before they can fight the Lurkers. Have some Queens ready to use Spawn Broodlings on any Templars coming to Psi Storm the Lurkers and a few Guardians to hit any Reavers that show up. I

I had Protoss players quit because they couldn't get in my base or use Carriers when you have Dark Swarm and Plague. Not saying they were awesome players, but it worked for my tastes. How exactly are the Zerg countering Carriers and Battlecruisers now? Without Lurkers, the Zerg don't have any units that can attack while cloaked, or any sort of stationary tank type of unit. Roaches are cool, at 1 supply, but Lurkers are way more useful in my opinion. Why are Brood Lords and Ultras getting nerfed too? What other choices do you have late game?