Zerglings into Roaches?

ok, this seems to be an argument in another forum, i tried to get both sides opinion, but only the person that was for it gave me their opinion, the other one that was against it doesnt care about a poll so ill put in the opinion of the pro person and see what you guys think.

also this idea was formed when the Zerg had their 'new' upgrade system. sorry for the long read. the poll closes in 10 days, so please vote to solve this argument.

as for me i didnt like the idea, seems too much strain on one unit / building so early in the game.

 

no...i dont it at all. To much evolution on 1 zerg unit...tahts not how gangsters role yo.

 

No.

Zerg and Roach are completely different, size for size Zerglings beat Roaches and they both have very distinct functions. Its like having an Ultralisk mutate from a Hydralisk.

 

or a baneling from a zergling?
or a gaurdian from a mutalisk?

 

You can't have the roach for GtA for the same reason you can't have immortals (even though they do aim upwards). Air units generally have weak anti ground attacks (barring the banshee because it was designed especially against ground). Weak attacks would be made useless by the regen rate of the roach the same way immortals would never seem to die to air.

If the roach was made a tier 3 melee attacker that could be semi-massable then I'd be fine with making them a zergling mutation. I would imagine the mutations would look like this:

Tier 1................Tier 2................Tier 3

Zergling............Baneling...............Roach
Hydralisk............Lurker
......................Mutalisk............Guardian

This would emphasise how zerglings evolved by giving them wings and increased adaptability (~number of mutations). Zergling form to rush/mass/distract/pick off units individually. Baneling form to mine and pick off units in groups. Roach form to push/wall off hydralisks due their size. It would also make the race more distinct from the other two by making several units available through mutating previous ones instead of making them come from production buildings in the generic way.

ps why are tables still not implemented?

 

What tables?

Having all those mutations makes the Zerg cost too much, Zerg are supposed to be cheap and readily available, having Roaches; which is something they need thru-out the game would become too expensive and not become massable which was a problem they solved with Devourers as they didn't need to be massed because the Mutalisks did the attacking while the Devourers did the effect of slowing down eneny cool-downs.
Guardians were hardly used in pro/serious games as they costed too much and didn't do enough to be worth their time/build/speed/attack/vulnrability, but now they have fixed that with allowing those expensive Guardians to produce a swarm of their own meaning they are worth their cost and time even tho thats against Zerg foundation rules, so by breaking it (being expensive and slow), they are allowed to swarm more and benifit every single other Zerg unit, which is the point.

Zerg work together and are basically everywhere
Protoss are self sufficient; each unit is valuable
Terran are adaptive; they have a wider variety of choices meaning certain combos work better than others such as Sc1's MM or MF or MarineF, MMF, or Tanks, Turrets, Vultures etc.

 

Resource wise mutations could be as low as 25/25 or even 0/0. If you take 25/25, that would mean a baneling would cost 50/25. Seeing as how two cut through pretty much anything, their price/value ratio is very good and Zerg-like. If you were thinking in terms of time, you could be right, but I'm sure it could be balanced.

And I don't know what you don't understand about the tables missing.

edit: don't forget that Blizzard needs to keep to the 8 larva orders (the 9th being the cancel button) and currently we have 10 units coming from the hatchery (drone, zergling, hydralisk, roach, mutalisk, corruptor, infestor, ultralisk, overlord, queen), so we still need two mutations on top of what we have now.

 

Interesting, but too many evulutions are too many

I remember we had these discussens 9 months ago, and I thought the result was it wasnt really good gameplay-wise or lore-wise

 

The idea of Zerglings evolving into Roaches is intriguing. I don't see how morph time could become an issue, if it's too long, just reduce it until it's balanced, just like how you'd solve the price "issue".

I also want Corruptors to evolve from Mutas. Makes Zerg more adaptive.

 

If the mutation costs and times are possibly nothing then what is the point of mutating one unit into another and not just producing it?
That forces you to make a group of Zerglings to make a group of Roaches every time, larva does that not Zerglings. Zerglings have their primary role of outright destroying, no protection involved, they're just designed to kill without any care, that applied to the Baneling, just as the Zergling will die in combat, it takes others with it same way the Baneling does but just in a different way and for different targets.

Roaches have that huge defensive aspect of them, they're not relative at all to the Zergling as the Baneling is. Zerglings are meant to keep pouring out and assulting the enemy to gradually weaken them just as the Baneling is, cept their application can be more tactical as opposed to the Zergling.

Interesting, I never thought of that. But either way the Roach is its own strain and should be kept individual as it is unique as the Ultralisk is, although I could see a Roach turning into an Ultralisk, but that doesn't support lore, unless they say something like:
''While the Ultralisk was the adult form taken from their primary species, the Zerg simply harnessed the adult DNA, now the Zerg have assimilated the DNA of the more complex young primary species'', or they could say ''the Roach's original species is a cousin of the Ultralisk family and their similarities being unlocked now allow Roaches to mutate into Ultralisks''.
And I don't think you count the Queen as one because I am not sure that it mutates from a larva, as if that were the case you could just make more. So eliminating the Queen that makes 9. Now we just let the Mutalisk gain its lost mutation in the place of the Corruptor as it has a similar mechanic to the Mutalisk and Swarm Guardian basically creating more units for combat.

 

The cost and time does not have to be really low, just balanced.

You have to make Hydras in order to make Lurkers every time you need them. Never been an issue, rather a racial trait.

So what if they are not? Do you think Guardians are similar to Mutalisks, Hydralisks similar to Lurkers in their roles?

 

What gassy said. Mutalisks are small in terms of armour type, have no armour, has low range, moves fast, and can attack both air and ground. None of that is true for the guardian. The mutalisk - devourer mutation is even more radical (armour, hp). So I think the roach could easily become a mutation of the zergling to get us closer to the 8 command slot for the larva.

 

But do we want every unit to be a mutation for an other. The evulution aspect has also been used for balance, because then it took longer time to produce the unit. So we could also make the ling into an ultralisk in your opinion?
More evulutions = lower amounts of hatcherys
which means that a Sauron Zerg will not look as cool
Its also much easier to pump from hatcherys then to constantsly make lings and then let them evolve into everything....
Even if you have 4 units that then have 2 evolutions (12 units + drone + ovi), it will be much harder for the lesser skilled player to first pump the unit, and then let it evolve, than just pumping the unit. If the evolving was made for balance no problem, but it isnt in this case.

 

Need I remind you that gameplay always comes before aesthetics? And if anything, eggs scattered just outside your base look more intimidating than next to hatcheries. Especially if you have two evolutions for zerglings and you won't know what comes out of the egg until they're all pouring into your base.

Another point is that Zerg in SC are more micro intensive in my opinion (mainly for the grouping limits). Since that limit is gone (or at least it will be raised by a fair bit) the micro intensive aspect of the race needs to be restored to give it that distinct feel - in the form of mutations.

 

kuvasz a unit like the Zergling will stil require a lot of micro to be effective against MM/zealots etc. The lurker plasement plays a bigger and bigger role with the fast mobility. The infestor/defiler is still the most important spellcaster, with it plauege and swarm (and what isnt more important then good swarms) etc. etc. etc.
Micro has nothing to do with evolutions, thats pure macro, seems like you dont know what the difference is!?!?
So you want to remove the micro problem with more macro, hmmmmmm

 

Walling with eggs isn't macro and by mutation you don't actually produce new units only trade them. And since you have to order units on the battlefield then it's micro in my book

Even if I got the terms wrong the point should be clear.

 

Sorry, forgot to post this but the Guardian is almost the same as the Mutalisk, the only difference is speed, range, endurance, initially they keep the exact same concepts, they are not used to suicide, they are needed and not to be wasted, they both produce creatures when fighting and those creatures further fight, now as the evolution progresses from Mutalisk to Guardian, the creatures it uses to attack become more complex and can now be commanded and do not die like Glaive Wurms do, so the Guardian does not need speed because if it needed speed we wouldn't lose the Mutalisk for the Guardian right?

To put it simple, Zerglings and Banelings keep to the same concept, do as much damage as they can in their short life time, and the Baneling is a step closer as it does ALL its damage in a single time.

Hydralisks are Lurkers are both valued, they were the back bone of the Zerg, both are ranged, both attack lots of units at once with numbers, fast attacks, and AoE.
Just like the Mutalisk and Guardian, the Lurker reduces speed for armor, hitpoints and more attacks in a sense, just like the Guardian is basically an air Lurker with a more controlled spike attack being Broodlings.

A Roach is pretty much an individual unit, its similar to nothing except an Ultralisk. Just like the others, if a Roach mutated into an Ultralisk it reduces speed for more attacks and armor, so when a unit mutates it becomes more valued, except for the Zergling strain as they are basically suicide bombers in the name of Zerg; that is something none of the other strains are, as they wouldn't have things like fast regen or creating units.

 

The only difference? Changing things like speed, range and endurance is what makes different units.

ALL units are not to be wasted...

Lots of units are ranged, that does not make them similar, and most Zerg units are supposed to attack with great numbers...

Lurkers have SLOW attacks. They have more than twice the cooldown as Hydralisks. You don't know what you're talking about. And since when did the Hydralisks have AoE?!

 

How on Earth is a Roach similar to an Ultralisk? Roaches are ranged, small and fragile. Ultralisks are melee, enormous and anything but fragile.

 

i think he thinks the Roach is a early game Tank, like me. 1. if you didnt got why i think the Roach is a Tank, go look at the last post in the Roaches thread. 2. lets not bring up that argument in this thread. 3. new stats info and the such is just around the corner, so if you want to argue then we can do so after the info gets to us.