Zerg vs protoss 2gate/4gate push

Hi all,

after continuosly losing to any non-noob toss out there, 2gate and 4gate quickly reached my ears and my attention. I've heard from diamond players that these are very hard to fend off for zerg, and yes, they are, I only won one time against someone who played his 8th league game vs me. I'm platinum btw.

I found replays with zerg vs toss, and guess what, it's hard to find any where zerg actually wins. I found NO video where a zerg can stand against a good timing push.

Do you guys have any advice what to do against this? Some say one base, others fast expand, my experience is that fast expand is an invitation to get raped. When I play from one base, I at least get the feeling of having a chance.

What could I try? I really don't see a way through all this. And no one I ask neither.

 

This is a hard call. I always make my move well before the toss push. blast out like 6 quick lings and hit his mineral line. 4gate is crippled if he has to remake probes. this wont stop him for long but it will put you in the lead as far as resources go. If you make no move until toss sends first push, then it is most likely to be GG.

 

They usually wall off their base and put the blocking zealot on hold, no way in there. until he is dead the second one is out, and the first stalker makes it impossible. When do you drop your pool? I do about 12/14/15, since I play defensively, i need stronger economy for roaches and hydras.

 

The comment that was made about the early rush on the economy is a good start. As I mostly play toss and I like to try the gate rush especially when there are zerg players in the game. However that being said I always have are hard time with those zerg players who harass early and keep a constant pressure on me. This is more so cause it messes with my rhythm more then anything else. Having to stop and fend off attacks while getting my build up and running takes valuable seconds away from me.

Toss can't wall off exactly like terran can so getting that first little group of lings in there to harass before I can get enough units out to block the choke is key.

 

So what pool do I need to place to get in there in time? And what about larger maps? Do they even keep harassing when you have sentries and stalkers? It really seems like offensive is the key, I just lost another game to a stalker/zealot/colossi mix. God I hate protoss.

 

I really can't give you any true zerg advice from the zerg perspective as I don't know zerg all that much. I play toss for now and I'm just thinking back to the times where zerg has given me a hard time and what they did to do it.

 

I 14 pooled and got my *** handed to me. If you go for a 6-7 pool rush you will have a crappy economy and you're no better off. I would try a 10 pool, and definitely 1 base until you have a decent group of roaches/speedlings to take map control. you probs even need 2 spine crawlers to help out. move them towards your ramp as your creep spreads and try to block it off if he tries to get a bunch of zealots up there. If he's using stalkers, don't worry about blocking the ramp and try to ling surround him.

 

Well, gonna try 10 pool. And try to harass with early 6 lings?

 

4 gates are evil.

 

I believe that HDstarcraft has a tutorial called : "How to survive a 4 gate tutorial" or something like that. Not sure hoe actual it is since it was made during beta. But it was 2 diamond players anyway.

 

i've recently been usin 1 base early roaches against protoss and some spine crawlers aswell.... but i've only tried it in 3 vs 3 and it works WONDERS

 

Thanks, that helped me a lot. Gonna try that out.

 

I also had huge struggle against 4 gate push, I tried everything from 6 pool to massing lings to banelings to roaches, to hydras, to mutas, everything... Here's what I found out.

6 pool will slow the toss down. But then it will also slow you down, and in the end, toss wins.

I went 10 pool mass speedlings. They were destroyed because of the zealots wall and sentry force field. If I kept them and waited for them to come, they came and destroyed me with their zealots and stalkers. and no... 3 spine crawlers didn't help. They just kept pumping out stalkers and in the end overwhelmed me.

Banelings could not do enough damage especially against stalkers. Stalkers just picked at them from the ramp. If they did attack, there were too many stalkers and zealots usually tanked.

Roaches sucked against stalkers.

I made 3 hydras when toss attacked with 20 stalkers and 10 zealots.

My spire was still in the progress when they hit me.

When they saw me fast expand they sent around 6~7 zealots and it was gg.

So in the end, I kind of gave up playing against toss, because playing against toss made my stat get messed up. I was rank 1 in plat. Playing against 20 toss out of 25 games (idk why there were so many toss) and winning only 3 (do the math) I got down to rank 2 and i'm very close to getting down to rank 3.

I wish Blizzard will balance better... I think Zerg seriously is UP in the early game against toss

 

Can you post a replay of that?

What gives me most trouble as protoss player is mass mutas + harrass, so i make mass stalkers, then switch to zerglings to kill off my stalkers, then some higher tier units.

 

I didn't save them... When these happen again I'll definitely save them and upload them

Edit
I found the one where I tried to mass roach but I lost.
I'm in top Plat, but then for some reason I've been on a losing streak, I have no idea why, so any criticism on what I should've done and stuff like that are all welcome.

 

After watching your replay, i have the following remarks:

Protoss player clearly wasn't seasoned, he made some blunders in his build (f.e. pylon at 10). He went for heavy economy, too heavy actually, and was very open to early attacks. Only one zealot guarding the entrance could be easily overruned by a stream of zerglings.

I believe he had like 24 probes to your 17 drones, and that's why he won, because of the clear economic advantage. After scouting that you should attack asap, before his investment returned profit. I had an impression that you decided to make roaches no matter what, without considering what opponent's doing and as a result you attacked too late.

Moreover, he was right when he wrote that you had a chance if you attacked him with zerglings and roaches simultanously. Zerglings are suprisingly good vs. stalkers, if you attacked with roaches to tank damage (roaches are tanks), and attack his stalkers with zerglings that battle could have turned differently.

One more tip: it's good to attack units warping in, they die easy that way.

 

I HATE that, it's like protoss is the new swarm. I mean come on, they have the most powerful units already, they should not be able to rival zerg with numbers (and in many early cases surpass them). I feel chrono boost/Warp gates needs to be looked at in terms of balance.

 

This was my like 15th toss, 5th in a row and I tried ling rush before and stuff but they didn't work... So this time I thought I would go with roaches no matter what, unless the toss was going for early void or something like concentrating on tech. And idk why I didn't attack together. but then I was distracted by his attack on my base so I kind of gave up in the end

But through your remarks I think I might have found a way to somewhat survive 4 gateway push... I think I will go for roaches, like 6 or 7, to kill off the zealots, and when the toss, seeing me going for roaches, start massing stalkers, then I should mass speedlings and attack... I gotta try that now

 

Gl then, keep us informed

 

For now i'll say the following LONG remarks xD before i check out that replay. I believe some of you are getting the wrong idea or such or thinking about things in the wrong way... this is coming from a Diamond player Zerg.

First of all, 4 gate is a powerful build. But Protoss is not "imb4". Think of it this way. Would the game be balanced if the Zerg were able to take an early expansion, while also easily being able to defend it? By taking that expansion you should know you are putting yourself at a disadvantage early game wise, but at advantage mid game wise.

Also, not sure if this is what you meant, but you should not be going for a hydra den, roach warren, and spire in the same game in trying to defend. Ideal you only go for one of them. If you want defense, you go for Roaches or Hydras. If you want offensive-defense, you go for mutas to keep them at bay while you harass their mineral line while you can take a third base or build up defenses if the player is smart and splits their troops, leaving some behind to defend and the rest to push.

If you are only getting 3 hydras while he has 20 stalkers and 10 zealots, there is something terribly wrong. Either your build is not solid enough, you're executing it too slow, or you missed a huge window where you could have pumped out a small army and crushed him before he started pumping his own army.

Here are your options...

if he's going 2 gate into 4 gate, as in early zealots harassing you, then make sure you have a queen/ a couple zerglings/ spine crawler for defense, or you can skip the spine and go for roaches instead, and transition into a lair for hydras. If his zealots are getting to you too early for you to put defenses up, then consider using a different build order. Remember, the earlier his zealots come, the bigger a disadvantage he puts himself into.

Remember that at the point those early zealots come, you're at an advantage. He HAS to deal damage in order to simple catch up. He has to do a LOT of damage in order to gain an advantage. Sometimes, even losing your expo hatch will only make things even. If he catches you off guard, pull all your drones to your main. It's alright to let your expo take damage; just don't let it die. You can build 1 or 2 spines in your main with some lings / a queen, and then move out. Try to always save everything possible until the last second; it'll make a big difference in terms of strength.

Usually though, unless if the P is going for a huge econ before 4 gating, according to what someone mentioned, you should not attack. You are zerg; it can't be emphasized enough that it is ideal to simply pump drones until the last second. On a map like Scrap Station, this is surprisingly easy as long as you have a zergling at the tower; this will give you enough time to put up defences at the last second. If you want to see some of this, you may want to play very macro-heavy-focused pro players like IdrA.

Now if he is going for huge econ, you should be sure to scout that out, and pump drones to stay ahead. You could also push, but it's much safer to pump drones; plus it's easier xD

If he attacks with a very Stalker heavy army, you do not want a spine-heavy defense. Stalkers against zerg are pretty weak actually. Zerglings counter stalkers; Hydras soft counter Stalkers; Roaches and Stalkers are actually even, and if anything, Roaches soft counter Stalkers (on creep). Remember Roaches are a LOT cheaper than stalkers, and stalkers are only slightly stronger in a 1:1 comparison. Sure they have longer range and can micro, but if you stay on creep, you will be fine and the roaches will have the advantage.

About Banelings, generally you do not want to get that tech against P especially if you are expo'ing (they will usually FE or some kind of 4gate you to counter). If they go mass zealots, spine crawlers are better. Roaches are much better than blings and cost exactly the same except for 1 extra food.

When the opponent goes for a more "normal" 4gate, it is, in my own experiences and opinion, easier to deal with than a 2gate pressure into 4gate. Just remember to have a spotter zergling at the outside of their base before they push or before they send their probe out to make a proxy pylon, and/or a zergling at a xel' naga tower. Remember to always watch the minimap.

Against the normal 4gate, just counter like usual; roaches will be the most useful here as they are good against both zealots and stalkers. Or you can also use the fun LaLush build which gets just enough hydras in time to defend, but that is less "standard" as the pool needs to be put down on 10, usually before you have enough scouting information that will let you know if an expo would be a bad idea (for example, Lost Temple 12 o clock vs 9 o clock position is very hard to defend).

If you go for a hatch before a pool, then you may want to consider to something like a 14 pool 13 gas 16 hatch or 15 pool 14 gas 16 hatch etc. This way, if you are in the worst position possible for an early expansion, you can scratch the 16 hatch from your plan and go in for a baneling bust or huge roach push.

Long post may be some of it helped may be nothing at all helped, but w/e, hope it can may be help in some way xD