What builds/ strategies does everybody use? These are my most common openers, in descending order: - 15Hatch15Pool (Mass Speedlings): My favorite, because unless the other team pulls a 5:00 rush, it's safe and gives me the economic advantage I need to be useful in a team game. Obviously, mass Speedlings can't stand up in a direct confrontation, unless I isolate pieces of the other team's army; my main purpose in using this strategy is to scout, harass and deny expansions. - 14Pool (Speedlings): This is what I use if I need to help my partners defend against a 5:00 rush. I get some lings and crawlers and expand as soon as I can afford it (because, again, Zerg NEEDS an early expansion to be successful in team games). - One-base Muta Rush: With this build, I can consistently get 5-6 Mutalisks at 7:00 sharp, with 500 leftover minerals to spend on Speedlings/ Crawlers as neccessary. This build is risky and vulnerable to early attacks, so I only use it against Macroing/Teching opponents. However, when I pull it off, it's incredible. Harassment is my specialty; I can do a LOT with 6 Mutas, especially when my opponents don't expect them so early (I've had multiple players compliment me on how early I got them). If we survive the early game, I always go LingBaneMuta, without exception. From then on, I focus on harassment and damaging the other team's economy while my own team builds up. It's very effective as keeping us ahead in economy (I love looking at the graph after matches and seeing how far behind they were), but the problem is...I'm basically useless in an actual fight. So, what do you guys think? Any thoughts? - Nick1Nintendo
why no ultralisks? D: oh and i like your signature! xD EDIT - When i play FFA i usually Ultralisk-rush for some reason and it seems to work out pretty well for me :3
I have nothing against Ultralisks; Mutas are just by far my favorite unit, and when I already have a Spire and air upgrades, it seems most logical to tech to Broods. Though in a 2v2 yesterday, I went up against a Protoss with Phoenix and ended up going Ultras (I didn't know WHAT to do with myself, my partner was getting slammed). They completely raped our opponents' Zealots and MMM. I might go Ultras more often now. I don't know, we'll see. EDIT: Oh, and thanks ^_^ It's one of my favorite quotes.
I usually use 14 pool into ling/roach/hydra. This is my survival army since they dont die nearly as fast as ling/bling whenever the enemy decides to attacks together. I sometimes mix in infestors, especially after I used them once to rape a late-game mass thor army. Also use infestors to harass expansions. I did try ling/ultra once, amazing how long an ultra lives when your enemy tries to kill them with a few carriers. My roommate always goes 11 hatch(I don't get why on 11 and not 15 either) into mass mutas ball. Crazy how he gets enough gas for 9-11 mutas once his spire finishes. Once he gets about 30 of them, he starts melting bases.
I can see what you mean about LingBane being fragile, but I like it just for the wipeout factor. With enough burrowed Banes, you can reduce a gigantic Doomsday push to half its original size, then run by and wipe out bases/expos with your zerglings while your partners clean up. I've never used 11Hatch. It seems like even though you would get an incredibly early expo, you wouldn't have enough Drones to make use of the mineral patches. However, I know exactly what you mean about Mutas...harassment with a Muta ball that big is unstoppable by anything except the opponent's main army, which is usually too immobile to keep up.
I rarely go hydras nowadays as colossi are a staple unit for P and they're not too good against T. As boring as it sounds, I've concluded that roaches are a must in all the matchups. vZ you complement with infestors, vP you support with corruptors (rarely hydras if they metagame me and spam immortals), vT I again add infestors (to lings if they are marauder-heavy). With this I can safely tech on my roaches in team games since they're never wasted expenditure. Though come to think of it, this mainly applies to 2v2. Above that I just lark around :laugh:
Kuvasz - I see the logic in your post, but the fact of the matter is...I blow with Roaches, Hydras and Infestors. Especially Roaches. I just cannot manage them properly, micro- or macro-wise. In most matchups, I make up for that with my 'phenomenal' Muta harass (not to be arrogant, but tons of people have told me so) and LingBane micro. I can also get by with Broods and Ultras, though I rarely use them. Another thing I wanted to mention... It seems like Zerg HAS to focus on harass in team games. As any Zerg player knows, it's impossible to compete with a Terran/Protoss player who's on an equal number of bases, and most 3v3 and 4v4 maps only have roughly two expansions per person (easily maintained expos, anyway). Even RoachHydra, arguably the most powerful Zerg army (in terms of literal power), can't equal a Terran/Protoss two-base doomsday push. So Zerg has to focus on keeping the other team behind so their partners can make up the difference and come out with a stronger overall army. See what I'm getting at?
Yes, but now that I think about it, I've never harassed in 3v3 or 4v4, ever. Maybe I should. But I'm not losing near enough matches to experiement with it, to be honest. Staying together with your team mates is the most important thing and harassment, especially considering that there's at least 2 other armies beside the harassee's (making a quick response more likely), isn't as effective as in 1v1 and maybe in 2v2. In fact I rarely get a spire :laugh: It might come down to the things you mentioned. My micro is pretty good compared to other diamond friends, and my injections are almost perfect, so hindering my opponents isn't as important for me as to pay attention to perfect macro and micro on my part. IIRC Destiny (who I learned quite a bit from) also said that at lower levels you clearly need to choose between doing A or B, and you should always choose macro. Harassment you can leave until high masters level, which I'm far from.
Well, you should of course do whatever fits your playstyle. I find that, 99% of the time, a person will perform best with their preferred strategy whether it is "optimal" for the situation or not. I do understand what you mean about staying with your teammates, but the problem is, if both you and the enemy team both gather together into two doomsday pushes, logic dictates that whichever side has more Zerg players will lose (assuming equal skill and proper army composition). This is because of Zerg's overall playstyle; they lose in an upfront battle, but can replenish their army quickly. This is less effective in large-scale team games than in 1v1/2v2 because, whether or not you can get back to 200/200 in 40 seconds, the enemy team likely still has most of their doomsday push. And since your non-zerg partners don't recover as quickly, that's gg. My theory is, to counteract that, Zerg should focus on harassment techniques that reduce the effectiveness of the enemy team overall. If you do your job correctly (i.e killing plenty of workers with mutas, sniping expos with lings, catching small groups of units out in the open), the enemy team's performance should drop. Let me try to put it into numbers: Each player has an overall effectiveness of 100% if they build for power. By focusing on harassment instead of power, Zerg's effectivness (in direct combat) drops to, say, 50% (that's quite dramatic, but this is just for the concept). Your partners remain at 100%. By harassing the enemy players, the Zerg can drop all four of their effectiveness' to about 80%. Now, full scale battle: Team 1: (You) Zerg 50% + partner 100% + partner 100% + partner 100% = 375% Team 2: Enemy 80% + Enemy 80% + Enemy 80% + Enemy 80% = 320% 375% (Team 1) > 320% (Team 2). You win. These numbers are, of course, only generalizations (probably inaccurate ones), but I think you understand what I mean. I don't usually have trouble with macro while harassing (until I get to late game: but by then, I have way more Hatcheries/Larvae than I can use anyway, and thousands of spare minerals to feed my partners), and even when I do start having trouble, by that point I have 30-40 Mutas, at least. Harrassment by a Muta ball that large is simply impossible to stop. No army in the game can keep up with them (mass Phoenixes are the only exception, but that's rare), and base defenses are useless. A saturated line of workers can be obliterated in seconds and buildings melt in 3-4 volleys. Once you get to this point, it's basically gg. Nice discussion ^_^ I rarely get to discuss strategy in-depth.
Problem with zerg maxed armies currently is that you need to make an army to stay alive and that kind of army gets carried on to max pop and doesn't allow for a good enough composition... Yeah if you're maxed out with roach/hydra you'll die, but so will a terran who is maxed out on marine/marauder or a P who's maxed on zealot/stalker. Infestors and broodlords are GREAT units for such kinds of team battles(well, for any kind of battle, really) Zerg has some very useful units that make a 3vs3/4vs4 army very powerful and it's a matter of what you pair it with to be effective. So long as you constantly scout their composition and build an army that counters it(as a team though, for example if they have banshees that doesn't mean you can't go ultralisk/broodlord, since your terran buddy can go thors or your P buddy can go phoenix. it's what you make a team and how you support it that gets you to win). Thing is that with 4vs4 you can easily trade resources around to get someone to easily tech up(which can be risky in 1vs1) or get defended by your teammates while teching up... Also banelings: They kick so much arse in 4vs4... When you have 3 teammates to absorb the damage you can just run a serious mass of banelings in and destroy the enemy land forces. Or destroy the enemy basese while your 3 mates battle the 4 enemies elsewhere... Zerg might have it's problems in a few situations, especially on high tier 1vs1 content(I really don't consider any balance issues on lower levels of play since even if they exist there's other fundamental mistakes players make that make us lose) but on team games it's a really, really powerful race...
It all comes down to DPS. It's not that Zerg are weaker in upfront combat it's that they have lower DPS with the exception of a few key units. 1. Ultralisks 2. Brood Lords 3. Mutalisks These should be your standard choices in team games because of their increased DPS output. Mutas retain this because of their maneuverability and the ability to group them so tightly together giving you an incredible DPS output once you reach a certain level. The downside to this is their exposure to splash damage and their comparatively low (Cost for cost) DPS comparison to Marines with stimpack. If you can avoid Marines (i.e. harassment) the Mutalisk wins out. If not, well... The reason the Baneling/Zergling strategy is only somewhat effective is because it relies heavily on the wipeout factor. The fact that you must wait to get a second army up (even if you've decimated his) puts you at a severe disadvantage as you start coming into mid and late game. That's why Roach/Hydra is preferable because of the higher average DPS without sacrificing the unit. Terran also wins out vs. Protoss because of this high DPS average, which is why a Banshee/Tank/Marine push is so effective against Protoss. It's not so much against Zerg because of the maneuverability and DPS of the Mutalisk. What I'm saying here is that you have two avenues for early game: Mutalisk or Ling/Bane and then you must transition into something more powerful either Brood Lords or Ultralisks to be effective late game.
@ Stirlitz - Yeah, I know the teching thing in 4v4. A lot of times, I'll have my partners build up somewhat to defend any early attacks while I rush Mutas. I have a build that consistently gets me 5-6 Mutas at 7:00 (as in, by 7:00, they're on their way to our opponents' bases). While I'm raping their ecos, supply blocking Zerg and other mischief, my partners macro hard to make up for my lack of direct army power (Mutalisks are like paper airplanes until you reach critical mass, and even then), and come into the midgame with a huge advantage over the enemy team. I would use Infestors more if I didn't suck with them and Broods more if they weren't so hard to get. Haha. But that's really my own fault. @ Joneagle_x - I'm not so sure about Mutalisks having a high DPS...I suppose that once you reach critical mass, they're great at tearing through numerous/ swarming units (like zerglings or, more to the point, Marines), but if my calculations are correct, their unupgraded DPS is around 8.3. Not bad, but no great shakes, especially considering their cost and fragility. Why didn't you mention the Hydra for DPS?
Mutas have high DPS because of their bounce damage. Each Mutalisk attack unupgraded does a total of 13 damage which amounts to a DPS of 8.6. Marines have a DPS of 7 until they use Stimpack at which point they have a DPS of 10.5. So you see Mutalisk actually have a very HIGH DPS comparatively. The Hydralisk does have a high DPS of 14.5 but has the disadvantages of continuing to be very expensive while losing significant maneuverability (and being fairly weak against other DPS units such as Siege Tanks/Colossus). This is countered by using Roaches as tanks but isn't nearly as effective as the Mutalisk (especially since Mutalisks are available "first"). And Mutalisks only maintain this effectiveness (especially against Terran) until the enemy achieves armor upgrades. At +1 armor Marines no longer are affected by the third bounce, and at +3 armor they are no longer affected by the second bounce either, severely diminishing the Mutalisk's DPS even with +3 attack. (Because +1 attack for Mutalisk only translates into 10, 3.3, and 1.1 damage, rounding down respectively). So at +3 armor on Marines and +3 attack on your Mutalisk you're looking at damage of 9, 1, 0 (DPS 6.6) . Alternatively if you're swtiched to Brood Lords with that same +3 attack you're looking at damage against Marines of 11 (DPS 7.4) plus the added benefit of Broodlings. So Mutalisk IMO for team games is far and above the best choice going into mid-game (Banelings being a close second) with a transition into either Brood Lords, Infestors, or Roach/Hydra at end game. My personal suggestion would be Mutalisk with a transition into Brood Lords. This has the added benefit of retaining Mutalisks (with their upgrades) as anti-air and general defense of the Brood Lords while staying on the same tech path. You would also only be on one path of upgrades, allowing you to effectively purchase air upgrades and maintaining their usefulness into the late game. Mutalisks would also theoretically retain more usefulness late game against enemy air as it is more unlikely that a Terran or Protoss has been upgrading their ship weapons and armor since the early game as you have been. Let's say you're up against Marine/Medivac/Viking. You've retained a good portion of your Mutalisks and you have Brood Lords. If you were to kill the Medivacs and Vikings with your Mutalisks (supported by whatever Corruptors you have) and let your Brood Lords do their work, you should be in VERY good shape. Your Mutalisks will be highly effective against the unupgraded Terran air which should more than make up for their limited effectiveness against 3/3 Terran infantry while your Brood Lords are doing significantly superior damage to his Marines and at the same time restricting their movement with Broodlings. Quite a hard counter if I do say so myself. So really I'm suggesting Speedlings -> Mutas -> Brood Lords. However, this all assumes that you are also not attacking frontally with your Mutalisks. You will, of course, never win out in a straight fight Mutalisk vs. Marines unless you have trimmed him down.
