You like to choke on my wall, GG

One thing I have observed from watching the evolution of maps deemed viable for tournament play is that almost all the maps require chokepoints. If they don't, they are either island maps or maps where the distance to reach main bases are so great the offense can be easily overmatched by the defense whether or not the defender decides to tech up.

I'm satisfied with the way the game is being developed so far, but I think hashing out how to make "open" maps more viable for tournament play would add a new dimension that makes the game feel even more distinguished and progressive from the old game.

Open terrain didn't work in the prior iterations of starcraft usually because of the zerg and terrans being overwhelmed on the defensive in 1v1 games. Open terrain was rarely viable for any race in 2v2 matchups.

I've been studying up a bit on what makes defensive positions of open terrain in history viable for inspiriation and these are the conclusions I've drawn.

1. To hold open terrain you have to entrench yourself with enough buildings so you can create a chokepoint that can be closed off when needed.
2. To hold open terrain you need to be able to outlast your attackers until they gave up or allies arrived.
3. If you didn't have at most a 1 to 3 man power disadvantage to your attackers you most likely were going to be overwhelmed.
4. Even though you are holding a fixed position you still need ways to respond quickly to where the army surrounding you is applying its greatest force on your defense.



We've seen all four concepts employed in SC and Broodwar but the results made it clear over time that open maps were disadvantageous to the less aggressive player or players.

I look at how the current races are being designed right now and I see most of the same problems existing here. Protoss is still the most viable in 1v1 and Terran got a questionable boost with supply depots being able to sink down.


After some consideration I think the races need one of any the following improvements to make open maps viable.



Protoss
They currently don't need any changes. Photon cannons being able to change postions and the mobility of the Stalkers already bolsters the advantage they had last time which was raw HP and shields and armor to weather attacks.


Terran
They can wall themselves in very nicely with their buildings but this takes time which they don't have on 128x128 maps so that's why I think the change to supply depots is questionable. It gives them the mobility to get out of their fort when needed better than before but they require too many buildings to wall themselves off.


So I think one of these ideas would better deal with the situtation.

1. Allow terrans to put up a new structure early on called the 'triangulation post'(maybe after buying an upgrade called the C3-Network upgrade from the command center.)

The t-post extends the range of all ranged terran units so that if they are standing within the triangulation radius of the t-post they can hit any unit also standing in the t-post.

T-posts can only be operate within a certain radius from a command center. If the command center moves the t-posts are offline.

Pros-Marines will get the range they need to engage enemy units sooner from where they are standing greatly improving response time to shifting movement of enemy units.

Cons-This effects all ranged units allowing t-posts to give terrans a mid->late game defense that might make attacking terran positions too difficult. (might because of redundancy in ranges [for example a siege tank in siege mode has no use for t-post but a siege tank in tank mode could get a range boost that makes them even more competitive with siege mode])

2. Allow reapers to use their jetpacks on command and give them a second weaker bomb that can be remotely detonated. These bombs can't hurt buildings no where as efficiently as their other bomb and these bombs have a waiting period before they can be used so reapers can't just attack peons with them.

Pros-Reapers can act as rapid response units and they can set down traps bolstering terran defense when they need it.

Cons-Using jet packs on demand makes reapers just like Stalkers.


Zerg
These guys are just flimsy early on and have to melee which is minus against protoss. Their numbers aren't that great if you are playing against a terran who can dance marines better than you can get in range to kill them. Things just get worse if they can get a bunker near you. In 2v2 their flimsyness pretty much means they are dead when focused on by players more aggressive than themselves.
Now things are even worse because their ranged static defense is tied directly to the survival of one unit.

1. Remove swarm clutch from the game and give queens the ability to use poison creep immediately instead. When poison creep deals damage it costs zerg gas.

Pros-With poison creep zerg defense is greatly amplified.

Cons- This is very bad for zerg vs zerg because their only option is to tech up because lings are useless. While it's the easiest way to make zerg viable in open maps; early poison creep requires to many balance considerations.

2. Give zerg a defensive structure that doesn't need to be built by the Queen called the 'nerve cluster.' This structure is a permanately burrowed spellcaster. Its hit points are so pitiful it could die to zealots in three hits or to four hits by marines.
When you use it it casts an area of affect, like shield batteries, that causes insanity in every enemy unit in the AOE forcing them to attack it and to prioritize it.

Even though it has low stamina, while it remains undetected; units attacking it only have a 10% chance of hitting it. So once you get detectors up they die easily; but without detectors a group of these will take some effort to kill because of the low hit chance. Their energy requirements should either be 60 or 75.

Lastly this affect can be overrided by the other player. Since the nerve cluster gains priorty the other player can't simply attack move his units any more. The player must attack order his units to hit a specific unit or building to override. The defending player can keep on spamming the buildings spell to override the attackers override until he runs out of energy.

Pros-This building gives lings the breathing room they need.

Cons-Early game might become annoying with zerg, as both attacker and defender have to micromange their units/nerve clusters (respectively speaking) until the clusters run out of energy.

3-Allow buildings zerg units require to be grown to give temporary boosts to units. In the case of spawning pools they give lings a temporary boost in attack speed.

Pros-Easiest to implement and should help lings compensate against zealots.

Cons-What should the other buildings do? Maybe this should be restricted to the spawning pool only...



So those are my thoughts on the matter. I will conclude with just this.

When I came up with these ideas I tried following certain guidelines:

-Try avoiding overlapping feel of playstyle from one race with another.
-Try avoiding giving each race the options they need to hold their defense early on without making them unbalanced at later stages.


That's why and how I came with such a variety of ideas.


Bonus 300 minerals for a great post

 

Good analysis but I dont like the suggestions. Although they are interesting and worth reading, there isnt a real need to include them ingame, besides, its a bitt too different, too ahead of its time!

 

Makes things more complicated than it should be.

 

Very good analysis! But really, this would just make the game even more complex! I also think that the Zerg would be unable to expo at the start, because you would just be able to attack the main. So Im against it!

 

I don't see how any of this is complicated at all. If you glossed over it I said twice only one of the ideas for each race should be implemented.

For each race there is a really simple suggestion, Protoss-don't change anything, terran-make reapers like stalkers and give them a second bomb they can use, zerg-allow spawning pools to cast a spell like shield batteries that improves zerglings temporarily. THere's nothing hard to think about with those three ideas.

Idea number 1 for terran and idea 2 for zerg are the only really complicated ideas.

Really the most important thing I wanted to achieve here is get discussion going about what maps have been considered balanced for the races to use. If you don't like any of the suggestions brainstorm some of your own. I'm interested in seeing if it's posible to whittle down ideas to make map design more interesting.

 

Yes and if you do all those things, then the game will end like Warcraft 3.
We dont want any unit and building to have an abbility...
The idea of chokes were really good, and is one of the points why Starcraft was so good. You could rush, you could boom, you could everything!
If you want to have that to work, you saw yourself how much change it needed. Many wants Starcraft 2 to be new, but many want the old Gameplay to be the same!

 

Furrer just drop it man. He just said they were suggestions. We put in are point that we dont think they would work and he said he thinks it will work but thats not the main purpose of why he made this thread. He just wants a discussion of what could work. Stop trying to cause fights and instead of bashing on his ideas more than we all ready have, lets start talking about what we can do to help solve these problems.
Please dont start fighting about this. The forums have been getting hostile lately so lets just keep things good. Im not yelling at you or saying your wrong i just want some progress to happen.

 

Laz I have my right to say why this will not work, and why nothing of these ideas will work!
For the Terrain chokes are like Carriers are like Protoss, the crown!

 

Well we gave our reasons so now lets get on some new ones. Im sick of reading forums and instead of hearing progress all i see is a couple of people (like you and me) fighting each other and the topic completely changes from what it was sopposed to be. Im done with this fight so you can keep fighting and reply to this with something proving im wrong and your right but it will be pointless. All it will prove is you want to fight me.

 

Really, those fights are a natural part of the units wish to prove them right. When you type:
I think this is good because of this
And I type
I dont think this is good because of this
Then we will end up with a good discussen, that normally end with a good final answer!

I think chokes are a natural part of the game, and I like how they change the way you play. You will be possible to do so many things! Therefore im also against removing them, because it can only hinder your possibilities.

 

I enjoy waching units getting murdered in choke points. Like in the vidoe showing someone playing zerg. He used his own building choke points and killed all the zealots attacking his base with just a little amount of zerglings that otherwise would of been slaughtered. I cant beleive the protoss player fell for it but it was still cool.

 

Where did I say all of those things have to be done ???

Many units and buildings already come with abilities. This doesn't make sense.

You're misinterpretting a terrain issue with other game mechanics. Starcraft was good because armies felt balanced. THe maps that supported this balanced gameplay involved chokes to protect bases in the early game. Look at how gameplay works in the mid and late game the armies proved to be just as balanced in open terrain as they did in constricted terrain once you got the right mix of units in.

This means that if instead of starting with four peons and resource node, all three races could've worked without chokepoints if they started with, for example, 2000 minerals and 1000 gas worth of units. Maps would've been more varied than they are now.