Western genre mix

It would appear blizzard are going for a mixing of genre's here, sci-fi and western. This was done with the original starcraft, but nowhere near to the extent that was displayed in the latest campaign demonstration... Western bar.. western music, loads of western iconography.

I just found it rather curious how they are putting a much larger emphasis on the western side of their genre mix than they did in the original, there are even screenshots with powerlines... Crops growing all olde fashioned, is this the right path to be going in? If i could bring up one example - the movie remake of Firefly effectivly combined the Sci-fi genre with western, but because the western has moved way out of its prime, the producers and marketing had no idea how to effectivly market the product. It was filled with old fashioned campfires, water well's cowboy hats to name a few, and ultimatly, it died without too many hearing about it.

Regardless, starcraft 2 is a game, marketing is completely different in respect to genre conventions, what are your opinions on the mixing of western and sci-fi here? In respect to blizzard obviously building on that bricollage a lot with the sequel?

 

Eh?

What the hell are you talking about? :s I could be completely missing the point here, but please read the next paragraph before commenting back.

You can also see all that in present times. We also grow crops, less developed countries have wells, etc. And wells are way more easy to make then complicated sewer systems, even in the future. I highly doubt that the design team is actually focussing on working a western theme into the game. And if they are, Raynor is sort of playing a space cowboy. Sort of. Also, I doubt that the Protoss and Zerg races allow for much western style battles. xD

 

You notice the "western" more because there's more emphasis on details. You really coudn't see them before.

 

I made it pretty clear, or do you not understand what genre is?

Comparing our time with a time millions of years ahead where space collonisation is possible and denoting that they would still use such crude methods as wells in such a period is absolutly silly. Even if you compare them to poor or less well off countries, you have to remember that they are on OTHER planets, to get to other planets anc collonise them in respect to freely walking about on the surface, and say that they would still use wells as a water system is blerugh..

The design team for the campaign has many choices in respect to how they want to present starcraft 2, genre wise, it would be silly to deny that they are moving down a western bricollage here.

Just look at the latest campaign videos, do i have to literally go through each one and point out the iconography and themes they are using from westerns? Im not saying that doing so is a bad idea, im just wondering what the rest of you think of blizzards jump in this direction in respect to genre.

 

The only thing western that I noticed were some of the Terran voices in previous videos. I don't see it as a problem, as long as it doesn't become too heavy. However, as of right now, I don't really notice it that much.

 

@ Renatus
Did you really need to quote all that? Oh well.
Anyway: the whole Terran race is ridiculously advanced when you compare them to the curren human civilization. I never denied that, and you are right about most of that. However, how would it be a human-themed race if the design team makes everything they own really sci-fi and techy? I think not. Just read the following, I will try to spare you from text walls and sum it all up.

If the design team chose to go high-tech with everything in the race, how much would be left of the human factor?
The Terrans distinguish themselves from the Protoss by using crude technology. If they would use some advanced system to get water out of the air and other things like that, then the themes of different races would get mixed up. I like to have some stuff that makes the Terrands stand out. It is the only way to identify yourself with them, that is nessercery. The Terrans are to identify yourself with and to get sucked into the game. Zerg are the evil cool beast race. Protoss are the enigmatic, sleek alien race. Starcraft 2 is trying to differentiate the 3 factions as much as possible. Even more then the original game did, really. Just think about it. I wonder what you and others have to say.

 

Complete and utter fail. There's no other way of describing this.

StarCraft is set around 2500. Learn your lore before you judge it.

Also, the colonists are in backwater planets are, for the most part, brought there. Most of the time they don't even have technology much more advanced than something we'd most likely have by 2075.

FYI: You're using the word "genre" in a way it's not typically used. If Aurora had a problem understanding you then it's not at all his fault. Still, I think he understood you pretty well.

 

In SC1 all the Terran were either Southern or Russian as far as I can tell
XD

 

Well, to be fair, there were Mexicans, Africans, and such as well, but, yeah, "Western" rednecks and Russians were the overwhelming majority.

 

Its goddamn irrelevant, they're still COLONOISING other planets, and WALKING freely on the surface. Dont even imply that wells are remotely probable in such a time period and situation.

They are walking freely on another planet without breathing apperatus, they can survive on said planet. They would not be using crude methods like wells, and goddamn above ground power cabels.

No, i am using genre in the correct context and method. Please back your points up instead of stating without elaboration.

Allowing and creating a human theme for the terran does not revolve around the display of recognisable technology. To suggest that somehow the audience would not be able to relate to the terran in a human manner because they use advanced technology is incorrect if the art style and technology are applied appropriatly as to not mix and match the races. Take almost all other examples of the SCI-Fi genre if you dont believe me. The majority of which display humans as 10x more advanced, but still retain diversity between their races and still retain relatable 'humanoid' so to speak characters.

Racial diversity is what you are coming at here, and i agree its definatly important, but it doesnt rely on displaying the terran civilian structure as olde time westerners, or a technologically handicapped people. Diversity will not be affected by having more advanced water systems, not one iota.

 

And what would your arguments be then?
"They live in the future." "What you say is irrelevant."

If you want to discuss something, then you also need to learn to agree with people. Seriously. He just proved you wrong with a direct fact from the game. He shattered your main point, and then you suddenly call it irrelevant. Just admit that he was right man. It will not hurt you or anything. You are just loosing your credibility now.

Also, you need to read the wiki and other official lore sources a bit better. It is made quite clear that the atmosphere of those planets is similar to earth. They do that in most sci-fi games and movies. Simply because it would suck if actors had space suits on all the time. I am not going to quote it for you, because you are to lazy to look it up yourself first.

And things that appear western style, do not always have to belong to that theme. If you see a flower in the editor, would you call the game a garden simulator? Or would you rather call it an interactive safari tour genre, if you encounter some exotic creeps along the way?

 

*face palm*
No you buffoon, he pointed out an inconsequential fact about the time line it was set. It doesnt effect my argument AT ALL, and it is IRRELEVANT because they have already reached the point of massive planet collonisation. It doesnt matter if its 2010, they are still walking around on other ****ing planets.

I'll try and explain EVEN further incase your brain cant comprehend:
Terrans have reached the point of collonising other planets.
Terrans have reached the point of effective space travel.
Terrans have reached the point of collonising a planet AND having safe, breathable atmospheres, and STABLE gravity.
Mar Sara is already displayed as capable of all of these things.
And you think they would still use wells

GG logic m8.

Space collonisation accomplished, even if the atmosphere is stable, and the gravity is stable, and the other hundreds of other things that can prevent humans from walking freely on other planets are stable, it doesnt change the fact that i have seen poorer countries on earth who have the intelligence and tecnhology to surpass well use.

You obviously dont understand what genre is. At ALL.

Lets say you have a horror genre movie, its going to have iconography and themes present that are specific to use in horror movies, but stuff is inevitably going to cross over. Now lets say the main character is running through a field, he sees a mobster sitting with a tommy gun. Does that change the genre to film Noir? Or gangster? No. Was i saying that? No.
To elaborate here, games very commonly combine genre or even change genre as a means to evolve. Take call of duty 4. Starcraft 2, as we can clearly see, is going for a obvious mix of western and sci-fi. It may be hard to understand if you have never been harrassed by what western culture and their media have established as genre conventions, but it is indeed very clear and noticable if you have.

 

*sigh*

I am not discussing the future tech thing anymore, since everybody but you pretty much finds it acceptable at the least. If you do not even want to discuss it, and instead call people names, then the discussion is going nowhere. I will not participate in simple yes-no arguments.

Onto the western thing again. Now you are contradicting yourself once more. Let me sum up: You first say this: --Stuff crosses over, but does that change the genre? No.-- But in your next sentence, the first post and even your topic title, you say that it clearly mixes! THAT MEANS THAT THE GENRE CHANGES! Now you are even are having a hard time understanding your own arguments, or you just are having trouble with making clear what you mean. And please refrain from calling other people names. It only makes you look desperate and seeking for other ways to convince people, rather then making a good statement.

 

I presented a logical argument, you refused to offer a sucessful rebuttle or even a rubuttle which displayed any kind of understanding of the subject we were discussing. Speak for yourself when you compare this to a yes and no argument.

I know what you are referring to, and yes i completely understand what you're thinking here, but its incorrect. In my example with the gangster, i was trying to display what should not be definied as a complete genre mix. If there was a gangster in starcraft 2, we could say, ok its borrowing some iconography from the gangster genre, but you wouldnt define it as a bricollge of the two. The point i was driving at there is that small things such as that in starcraft 2 wouldnt constitute a full mixing of genres, but the extent that starcraft 2 has gone with western involves a VERY large amount of borrowed things, it is a FULL mix or bricollage so to speak of the genre's.

I understand my arguments perfectly thanks, starcraft 2 borrows a full spectrum of elements from the western genre, my example borrows one. Would you regard a horror movie with a 5 second scene with a gangster as a horror/gangster movie? No. Starcraft 2 however, borrows similar music, cinematography, iconography, and even genre conventions in respect to character roles for the terran. So it would be correct to describe it as a full bricollage of the two.

I am indeed running low in methods of conveying my rather simple argument to you. What made me annoyed is you obviously not knowing what genre is, and continually refusing to refute any of my arguments. While having the determination to continue posting on the subject even though you constantly displayed yourself as incapable of understanding the basics.

 

Simply the voice acting does not mean that the game is a Sci-fi western.

There is nothing other than a few unit voices to say they are southerners. That does not mean it is a western sci-fi.

Protoss and Zerg are so far from any western theme its almost a joke to mention it.

So besides the voices of the Terran units, what ways are they western? Camp fires in cut sences? I do that when I camping, and I live in souther cali.

So what facts have you pointed out that this game is a western sci-fi rts. Nothing at all implies this.

Its very futuristic with the Terran as the closest race to humans. Yet instead of some form of advanced technology, (as its already been said) they use crude way to create vehicals to fight.

And ill stop because ill be repeating whats already been said.

Please though bring up something that is making this game into a western sci-fi rts other than the voice acting and I may start to think you have a valid argument.

 

The wells are obsolete argument is stupid, if you're establishing a poor colony near an underground water reservoir are you going to fork out for some high tech moisture vaporator *or something* or dig a hole to it? There's no reason not to use wells as long as they're cheaper and easier than the over complicated technological alternate.

Remember terran are separated from earth almost completely, the connection in technology they have is from the ATLAS database in the colony ships, stuck on backwater planets with what you could salvage from a ship wreck your situation and priorities are obviously going to be different, just because earth would probably be nigh utopian technologically by the time they develop space flight doesn't mean terran would be when they reverse engineer it from the only thing they have out of necessity.

Any western iconography we've seen fits starcraft well, we're talking about a sector wide 'frontier' and planets scattered across the place bordering protoss and zerg controlled space, the outlaw types would be a result of such a large area of scattered inhabited worlds under rule of one, authoritarian no less, government. When raynor wears a ten gallon hat and quick draws with gauss pistols while the xel'naga ride critters around raiding settlements then i get worried.

 

The old Confederacy was, well, the south.

The south covered a lot of areas. Western areas, relatively big cities, etc... Mar Sara is a western area. Tarsonis was like new Atlanta.

 

http://samods.org/node/174

Also, here's an article that's pretty important to the discussion at hand. It comments on and analyzes the parallels between the Civil War and early American frontier and the original Terran StarCraft campaign. So, basically, it's an entire article on the "Western genre" of StarCraft.

A nice read if you're interested in this topic.

 

To the thread: if you cannot have a discussion without making ad hominem attacks, don't post.

--

I would agree that StarCraft does have some overtones of a Western, themes, but I wouldn't go so far as to actually call it a member of the genre. As a few people have pointed out, the fact that they're using starships and battlesuits kinda trumps it. Not to say that one couldn't make a techno-Western, but you would need a much heavier dose of Western elements. With what we have, I would call it more of a "nod" to the genre.

I seem to be agreeing with Renatus, but I have to note that the well-thing is absurd. As overmind said- there's water under the ground. You need it. Yes, you could, say, teleport that water out of the aquifer, but that would be ridiculously inefficient. Technology is not about using the most complected means of achieving a goal- it's about using the most appropriate means. In the case of moving water from point A to point B, yeah, digging a hole would be the single most reasonable way to do it. This is definitely not a "but in the future they will have tech we cant even comprehend" -argument. It's like saying nobody will use wheels, because they have warp drives. It just makes no sense.
People seem to have the same issues with the Marine's combat shield. When you want to stop things from hitting you, put a wall of metal in the way. Simple principles like that don't go away with technological advancement.

 

Have you watched the single player videos? Did you read my posts?
Obviously not.

I stated that there are MANY things that make it a genre bricollage between western and sci-fi. Not just goddamn voice.

1. Bar scene, in deserty outback.

2. Music, noticably western in theme and style

3. Bar has undertones of olde fashioned bars, often found in western shootouts.

4. VOICE and dialog, accents.

I could go on and on, but i have little time to fully list them.

You repeat your agument, but its pretty strange that you dont notice the other elements of westerns, did you hear the music? Did you notice how tychus stareotypically walked into the bar, accompanied by a music sting of western shootout style? Have you ever seen a western?

I never said they were, i said that in regard to the terran blizzard are obviously going for a bricollage of western elements and sci-fi. Its pretty ****ing simple.

Ok, im fed up, im gonna watch the singleplayer videos and list the basic western underlying elements just for you:

Opening shot: On a beer sitting on a bar desk, accompanied by the beginning of VERY western styled music. If anyone can find the instrument i'll explain a bit more. The bar table is wooden, lighting is rather bright, not typically common in sci-fi.

Tychus enters: Pans to a over the shoulder shot of Jim, doors fold to reveal Tychus accompanied by haze of browny yellow fog outside, Blizzard are obviously playing with the llinks between mar sara's deserts and those of western america. Music sting plays on him entering, its probobly the most Western part of the video.

Flooring is old and wooden, again, blizzard playing with the links between western themed settings and sci-fi. Mar sara obviously has trees, bars would be made out of wood, but again, its convienent in this respect and to deny that blizzard are poking at the western genre would be insane.

Music continues to be overtly Western.

Dialog, and obviously already stated, accents. Even some character design in Jimmy relates to the western genre, a previous marshal on the untamed outback of mar sara, troubled by booze etc. VERY common theme in westerns.

There is probobly a few more there, but thats only one video i have gone through. Im sorry but its stupid to deny that blizzard are going for a western/sci-fi theme for the terrans.

See above. Thats only one video mind you, i could analyse some screenshots if you want.

Yup, they do. Not really relevant to genre bricollage here. I could point out that they have vehicles called 'Mules' if you want some more elements of western with the terran.

Yup.

I'll add more if you want..

Rofl - next video there is even a Western style WANTED poster with even the stareotypical font!