Toss counter for MMM + Seige tanks and ghosts =/

Hi all, I'm relatively new to SC and as a toss player I seem to fall prey to the MMM build. my bf uses it against me most every time we play (with added ghosts, banshees and siege tanks) and I believe that I have tried everything but I cant seem to counter him (or beat him at all for that matter) I'm not DEAD slow at building things but for some reason i AM slow (i think) because he always has a much larger army than I. If someone could give me some pointers on how to become faster or even inform me of a suitable counter I would really appreciate it ^_^. For those who reply, thank you guys.

 

I played toss throughout the beta and the start of release, but have now switched to Zerg, but I will try to help.

The issue with this is the tanks, and the bioball.

Some easy things you can do, make sure you have high templars.
1. Feedback on ghosts, (you have a farther range as well)
2. Storms will do damage to the bioball easily and don't forget the damage on the tanks, since they cannot move out of it. ( in siege mode)

Although, the tanks are going to be extremely tricky, I recommend phoenixes, dt's if he doesn't have a scan and doesn't see them coming. Some immortals for soaking the tank damage before your phoenixes can gravoton his tanks. The phoenixes can also be used for taking out ghosts/banshees.

 

the key to beating a terran who goes for MMM + is harassing making sure to keep them down start of with an early push with a few zeals a stalker or two and a couple of sents. push in and try and put him on the defencive. a high templar will help as long as they have both upgrades a collosus will also be usefull (get one or the other not both) zealots with charge can soak fire while templar storm. stalkers can be microed to kill medivacs then move back. all in all tanks added onto a MMM makes a potent combination. but it is going to be a slow moving one use gate way manuverability to out flank and out micro the oppnennt

 

use high templar can kill ghosts, then to kill the bioball. In general, one good storm will completely own a terran bioball. Use all your units to then kill the tanks.

 

Theres no reason you can't use colusi and high temps, just requires more apm, generally the colusi can be used to "distract" the bio ball while you bring high temps from another angle and throw down storms or feedback w/e needs it, and don't discount the use of phoenixs to lift up and kill seige tanks or even ghosts.

You can also use 2-3 void rays to do some distracting at expos or their main.

Ive won a few games vs T after lifting all his tanks up with phoenixs.

Pheonixs can also be used to kill medivacs.

 

To be honest, I think the apm required is about equivalent.

For protoss, you need to detect the ghosts with an observer (requiring air superiority), then move in and feedback each individual ghost quickly. If you miss one ghost, your force drops to half-hp.
For terran, you need to scan/raven and kill any observers (requiring air superiority), then move in, emp and snipe each high templar individually. If you miss one templar, your bioball basically dies.

I think the micro required is pretty similar. The consequence for failure is worse for terran - if both ghosts and templars still live, the protoss will win as units without shields are still alive.

 

Terran are simple. Rush out cannons to keep out scouts and void ray rush immediately after. As soon as you get 2 VRs (the air weapon 1 upgrade should finishing) send them into his main in the back. Start charging them on his refinery, don't let them stop until they're at full charge(when the beam is big) even if a few marines show up. Then once they're charged go to town on his base. He'll try and rush vikings, just keep making VRs, get an expansion out at the gold minerals, and get a fleet beacon up for carriers and a mothership. The MS will own if there are no ravens around.

 

although these strats may be feasible and interesting, i dont really think they are the answer.

the key to PvT seems to be playing D (as the protoss player) until colossi. once 3-5 colossi are on the field, the true key comes down to "can you effectively micro your sentries to cut the terran MMM force in half, trapping them from the typical terran stim a-move and retreat micro iteration. you'll need chargelots with stalkers too (stalkers are important bc the only real answer terran has to colossi are vikings).

yes better terran players will have ghosts for EMP, i do not think HT here are the best option. watch the footage of the recent MLG tourney match TvP vs LiquidJinro and Socke. Socke used the HT strat and Jinro did his tyipcal PvT mainly marauder build. even with great HT play, Socke feel to the better terran player. of course, Jinro went on to win this tourney (he is good), the strat did well for a while (45min match) but eventually fell apart).

Please reply if anyone else has had luck with this strat, bc ive been too hesitant to experiment with it

 

game starts at 7:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXHYXfwvEqY

 

The director counter to siege tanks is pheonixs.

Heres why, pheonixs are annoying scouts, but they can easily lift tanks up at critical moments.

Also use phoenixs to kill medivacs, banshees and nighthawks.

Pheonixs vs T is highly under valued and under used. but if you time the picking up of tanks correctly it makes all the difference.

 

Like Ste said, phoenixes are awsome against terran. In addition to be a good harassment unit and kill medvacs/vikings they have 2 other very good uses:
1) Lift tanks and
2)Snipe ghosts


To lift tanks you have to flank the enemy army right at the engagement time and use phoenixes a sec before your army goes into tank range. That will give you time enough to kill the MM ball and move back to the tanks, OR if you have blink keep your zealots to absorb fire, blink your stalkers to the back to snipe the tanks and leave the main dps to the mm ball to the collosi.

To snipe ghosts, it takes 5 phoenixes 1 shot each to kill a ghost, and 1 phoenix to lift, for a 6 total. Add 2 more as cannon fodder for the marine attacks and you can quickly snipe 2-4 ghosts and retreat even if there are a few marines on the ground.

For a barracks composition that's very marine-heavy with few marauders then ignore the zealots and focus on stalkers/colossi for your ground, and lift tanks off After engaging(you should take damage from the first siege barrage, but the enemy marines will be engaged in combat with your main army giving your phoenices time to lift the tanks. Colossi completely incinerate marines that it'll only take a few shots of each for the whole ball to die.


So: The more marines/less marauders, the more stalkers less zealots and for more marauders, the less stalkers and more phoenixes.

Couple that with ~8 sentries in your army composition to have enough energy for a good wall and a guardian shield and you'll be quite fine.

 

As Day9 says "Constantly Build Pylons and Probes, Constantly Build Units" (Void Rays?). Sounds like the Unit Composition I use (except Ravens instead of Ghosts), Try Massing Void Rays and Focus Fire his Marines/Ghosts then Medivacs down (Marauders, Siege Tanks, and Banshees can't even hit Void Rays, so they're like Shooting Fish in a Barrel).

 

Didn't read the rest of the thread, just wanted to debunk this: EMP does splash, it does not target a specific unit.

 

Never underestimate the power of colusi with HT's.

Noam noam noam noam.

 

[ot]Never underestimate the power of human stupidity when spelling something they see on a regular basis.[/ot]

 

Yes, we all know everyone holds spelling to be the most important thing ever.

Especiially on teh interwebsss...

oh grammar tooo!!

 

The individually goes to the sniping. Snipe the templars that EMP misses.

Edit: Never underestimate the amount of replies that can be written while your unread threads wait in tabs for you to reply to another. Added the quote I was replying to since we had a number of additions sneak in between since I first opened the thread...

 

immortals for the tanks

the ghost emp are really good against immortals but it's aoe is quite small if you can spread your army out a little he wont be able to catch a good emp also try to push out when he got his siege tanks down

phoenix are also great for siege tanks if he go mass marauders with ghosts then phoenix would be the better counter

plus usually you wouldnt have enough gas to tech both siege tanks and ghost and marauders at the same time early game

well not if you are playing against a toss like me who love to steal terran gas early game

usually it's marines siege tanks so immortals would be better counter