Those non-player animals you see running around the map

Should these be allowed an attack or defence? If they are infested, they could be controlled by the Zerg and used to attack enemies with.

I wonder if they will add many more of these creatures - some big, some small to the map. I would like to see some large ones running around that could factor into the game strategy i.e. trying to control them to your advantage..

 

When asked about attacking critters, I think blizzard said "If they attacked they wouldn't be critters, they'd be creeps." No more was said.

I don't know if that means there are creeps or not, but there are certainly critters.

One thing I love about wc3 is the use of creeps. It brings so much life and interest to the maps. Areas to tentatively step around sometimes, and other times they are areas to attack and reap reward from.

 

I agree with jasmines comment, "If they attacked they wouldn't be critters, they'd be creeps."

 

I like the creeps at WC3 too, but because they were in WC3 and not SC. WC3 has a much larger "random" factor to its gameplay (Units doesnt hit a fixed amount of damage, but rather a range, for example). And creeps in WC3 many times get somewhat uneven between one place or another between the map. While it gives a new dynamic to the map, im sure it would not be good for starcraft (AFAIK there is no random factor in SC... Thats why some people compare it to chess).

So imagine the case where you do everything right to make a back door attack to your opponent, but you get attacked by a critter that weakens you just enough for it to fail. You cant have that in SC... Its all about technique and precision there, almost no luck.

PD: I saw a very good signature that said that saying u were lucky in SC was like saying you got a 15% cleave with you knight in chess (Or something like that). Im sure the owner of the thread could explain the matter better than me.

 

I think he was talking about the campaign. This is actually a good idea. Never thought of infested critters before (although they would be creeps then). This could make for some interesting gameplay. Maybe you are hiding with Raynor in a forest or something, when suddenly the weaker animals get mind controlled by some sort of spore, and then attack you. Sweet.

 

How annoying would that be for a hostile critter (creep) to walk into your base int eh first 30 seconds of the game? You'd be utterly screwed.

 

"gg, an ursadon ate my drones "

Too random for the main game, i'm sure good custom maps will show up with them though.

 

Or they could be parasited. I am sure this ability existed in the original starcraft.

 

Parasites were in the original. However, it only shared the parasited unit's line of sight with your own troops. No mind controlling.

 

Random factors in combat
It is true that random elements can in some cases skew the gameplay. It depends a lot upon how it is implemented.

• siege units (eg, catapult) are the most chancy, with damage range something like 100->200%
• agility based units, (eg, blademaster) having fairly wide damage range, eg 100->150%
• strength based units (eg, death knight) are middle ground, eg, 100->133%
• intelligence based units (eg, archmage) presumably because they are the most controlled, offer the most predictable gameplay with the smallest damage range, something like 100->125%

In starcraft, there are typically 5->10hits to a kill, so the random elements are significant. But if this increases to around 30 hits to a kill, such is WC3, then these random elements begin to balance out.

It's an established mathematical theory called "The Weak Law of Large Numbers". Say if you flip a coin 20 times, then you're very likely to get within 40-60% heads. The larger you go, the less stochastic the game appears to be as all the randomness gets blurred together and cancels out and becomes less and less significant. So with 1000 coin flips, any result outside of 49-51% heads would be a real rarity.

So for combat, introducing a random element it isn't a problem as long as it is reasonably proportioned with the number of hits per kill. The number of hits you'll be making in the game is going to be in the hundreds or thousands, so the dice will have a negligible effect overall.

In that light, it's perhaps wise to reduce the random element for the tier 1 units to a minimum, since these will be more likely meeting in small numbers where random elements are felt stronger, but tier 2-3 can afford to introduce more randomness without introducing a dice-determined-fate, simply because there are more units active at that time.

Random Factors in Power-Ups
The problem arises with charged power-ups, like summon 3 furbolgs, or the red drake egg. Why?

These powerups are fairly well balanced between themselves for the advantage they give to a player, and each player has an equally fair chance to acquire them, but they are nonetheless one shot random variables that aren't balanced by the Weak Law.

The value of this one shot random variable depends entirely on circumstance. The red drake can be devastating against a melee group like human footmen, yet easily defeated by a group of elven archers, while the 3 furbolgs have the opposite bias and will rape a small group of archers, while the footmen can fight them off.

That's really where the dice shape your fate in the game. That would be my biggest complaint of it.

Why have randomness?
So it begs the question, why have randomness at all?

1. Because it does introduce some variety into the game state. In a 1v1 hero dual, it isn't necessarily the case that who strikes first wins the dual. That would be uninteresting. You might as well discontinue after the first strike. Randomness means that health differences create advantages, but it isn't black and white who will win. Just because you're a few hitpoints ahead doesn't mean that you will win. And that's an exciting thing, wondering whose health will drop the lowest. How long dare you allow the dual to go on before retreating? The hitpoint changes between your hero and your opponent's hero is something you keep your eye on very closely. It can be a test of nerve and astute risk assessment, whether the dual is worth the risk or not.

2. Also with the trained units, instead of having 10 units all equally reduced to 50% health, you might have some reduced to 55%, some reduced to 45% just because of random variations in the damage calculations, not because some have taken more hits. This prompts you to reorganise your units, giving you something else to keep an eye on. It also gives your opponent something to watch of your units, as it is in their best interest to focus attacks on those units with lower health, so its a natural way of inviting that layer of micromanagement.

3. The last reason is that it is beneficial to upgrades. If you have an upgrade that increases your damage by 10%, how does that affect number of hits per kill? If you're only needing to make 6 hits for a kill, then the upgrade won't make any difference if damage is constant. But if damage has a random factor, then yes it can make a difference:

Without upgrade: 6 hits to a kill (always)
With 10% damage upgrade: 6 hits to a kill (usually), 5 hits to a kill (occasionally)

 

Well I see nothing wrong with a lumbering 200hp elefantlike critter roaming the terrain, occasionally settling down to create a block. Its route could be scripted in the map editor to narrow down the randomness factor. When attacked it would slowly move away, so obviously it wouldn't be viable to use it as a wall but deploying siege tanks next to it with a turret would create an artificial choke. With it the map would not be just a static course but a dynamically changing terrain (something rocks aim at), which would influence tactics and create more amusing games.

This ties in with them having defence so yeah...

 

I feel (And this is an opinion) that because SC doesnt have a strong random factor (AFAIK none important), players developed awesome micro skills to take advantage in combat. So in normal combat 1 zealot kills 2 marines, but with micro the zealot can be killed.

So in a match not always he who hits first wins, as you can change the fight to your favor using the right skills.

PD: Great explanation about random, but IMO SC has to few hits to kill in order to balance out random. I mean you could do your perfect muta micro but because of a weak random, the turret didnt die and you lost an unit you wouldt otherwise lost. What you will in dynamism you loose in the keen precision of gameplay that i think SC relies on.

 

k

 

So it would be like borrow only you couldn't see the unit even with detection and can't attack just like most units for the Zerg. Idk sounds like it would be pointless.

 

I think this is a wonderful idea (to have creeps).

I however would implement it into SC by having the creeps be stationed at places in random areas over the map but being a certain distance away from your base. The creeps would be low powered and in numbers of 5 on up but be centered around a lair that when destroyed would give you a power-up in either minerals of gas. So this would not only make rushes smarter (you would have to make a serious tactical decision on whether or not to change an attack from the creeps or turtle up). Also the creeps would be close to their lairs (i dunno maybe 2 clicks distance of chasing after you guys if they see them) and would not go beyond a certain point beyond the lair.

How does that sound?

 

g

 

Everybody would just attack-click dead corpses, that is not time-consuming and hard at all.

 

It would be fun if the zerg or the protoss could control them. I one tried to mind control some bird, and it worked, but first when I didnt move it, it would randomly fly around, and when I used it to go into some enemy's base, I got shot at. Too bad it couldn't attack or something like that. But the idea is interesting, just imagine, you are safe in your base behind a couple of tanks and bunkers, when somehow an animal is infested and it starts attacking you. That would be fun.

 

Hey thats me!!! As a passionate chessplayer thats just the right quote for me you know

 

what if the critters (creeps) is like in the original starcraft, but if youre a zerg/protoss and infest/mind-control it, you can sneak into the enemy base, and not seem hostile? untill you attack with the creep

"Ooh, how nice, an ursadon is moving to my base I'll let it be "
**ursadon attacks the un-knowing miners**

this would be cinda intresting, since you would have to focus at killing critters too

edit: now see that someone said something similiar to this... :/