The truth about zerg revealed!

Currently, I'm trying to figure out the best potential changes that would correct zerg. The person in the following video makes the point clear.

Move forward time 2:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtUcojA4vvQ

"In general I feel like you just cannot get enough larvae, with out completely failing on your economy to produce enough of them with out going too all in"

This guy is precisely correct. When zerg are forced to make offense, in which case, they always end up being forced to make offense because terran and protoss always have offense sitting around that they will eventually use, this means that zerg has to follow through on that offense and go all in. Because the ball is now in zerg's court. Zerg should be, first and foremost, be capable of reacting with enough units at the last possible second so that they can get as many drones on to minerals before reacting with the extreme production change of all lings.

Here is the problem with zerg and when it comes to the discovery of the obvious, this is one of those punch in the face obvious truths where there will be so much logic presented, that you basically will feel guilty for having believed that the game was balanced for zerg all along.

It is the fact that zerg start out with an overlord, and their hatchery is worth only 1 food. Did you ever think about that though? The hatchery is 300 minerals, only 100 minerals cheaper then a command center or a nexus, and yields only 1 food in comparison to the nexus' 9 food, and the command centers 10 food.

Let me ask you this question protoss players, how would you like being forced to start out with a pylon and have your nexus' food value be reduced down to 1 food?

This would force you to have to make a 2nd pylon before making a gateway or forge. You are started on a flawed path and destined to be weak, and in the game of starcraft, the weak get weaker, and the strong get stronger as the game progresses along.

I've proposed the idea of doubling the amount of zerg units per larvae but for double the cost. If you notice, a lot of things would align with protoss costs, but following the Hegal philosophy of thesis, antithesis and synthesis, zerg would be a sort of synthesis in the sense that zerglings are small units like marines, but come in packages of 4 for one hundred minerals which is in alignment with protoss cost and what you get for that cost.

The primary argument to this is that zerg's control/food would be all messed up where too much control would be used in one pop.

Well here is the solution to that....

Have zerg start out with out the overlord and make all hatcheries yield 9 food/control. That is the simple simple solution that makes perfect sense.

Now, you might say that this makes zerg less unique from the other races, but guess what, it doesn't, in fact, in mathematics and pattern, it makes zerg truly different.

Let me explain.... zerg start out with a hatchery and an overlord, that is equal to a total of 400 minerals, while the terran and the protoss each start out with 400 mineral command center and nexus.

See, zerg isn't truly the odd man out because their total is 400 minerals, when at the start, it should be 300.

If you examine the result of this problem it becomes clear.... The command center is or was 10 food, the nexus 9 and the hatchery 1.

This does not follow the pattern of two same one different. It doesn't follow the proper mathematical pattern.

The command center should be 10, the nexus 9 and the hatchery 9...


THINK ABOUT IT!!!

There doesn't have to be 2 drones in one package for 100 minerals.... why? Because the probe does not cost 100 minerals now does it? Remember the point was to create a synthesis between terran and protoss. Having the drones come in packages of two does NOT properly synthesize. This can be kept the same for all the races.


Now... even though the above is in fact truth, the 2nd possibility that blizzard could fix zerg with if they don't want to do that, is make zerglings capable of morphing in to anything in the tech tree.

Those are the two possibilities, one of which HAS to happen for zerg to become balanced.... good luck blizzard... and I only hope that the players can wake up to how blind they have been all along.

 

Only read about the first few lines (way too long, and i have a headache)

ever think about more hatcheries?
1 hatchery = ~2 gateway, 1.5 rax + reactor, or so.
that + addition al spawn larva at the same time.
go back to sc1 tactics xD

Tip: Just say your points, and justify them later. i think it'll be more efficient.

 

The proof is right there, if T or P was forced to start with a pylon or supply depot and their CC or nexus was reduced down to 1 food, they would be underpowered.



Ok, here is an example, you know how pylons kind of float? Imagine if protoss had to start out with a pylon, their nexus was reduced down to 1 food.

And that somehow because they were capable of scouting with that pylon that it made them somehow stronger...

It wouldn't make them stronger unless they were capable of warping units in through that pylon...

But you don't see any ideas of zerg being able to produce units with their overlord now do you? because no good ideas are really even conceivable...

An overlord that produces units and poops them out? I mean really?

I mean, the terran can float a racks in and start producing....

Why can't a zerg land an overlord in an opponents base and start producing hmm?

But this is just the route that a person has to take in nonsensical thought, because the zerg start out with the overlord, this is why a person has to think this way.... it would all be corrected if they just removed the overlord from the start because you can just scout with a drone, and atleast in the old game you could use burrow in protoss' base anyways! There was no need for the overlord at start at all...

 

so, basically, you want the races to be the same, but with different skins and just tiny diversities?

that sounds like a fun game...

The overlords can be used as outposts so that you know where your oponent is attacking or where his scout's coming from, generate creep, transport units, they can be used to see the outskirts of the enemy base for you to place nydus wyrms, they can, unlike supply depots and pylons go hide in the corner of the map to avoid getting killed, etc.

 

After reading your threads I dearly hope that you are a troll. For your own sake, because if not then you really need to get a grip.

 

I don't know why I read your threads, I guess i'm a glutton for punishment. your arguments are unfounded, contradictory, nonsensical, muddled, and poorly written.

Point 1. You have no freaking clue what the Zerg were "meant" to be. you are not a developer, you are not a close friend of one, you are not "in the know", and you are not a pro player.

Point 2. You CONSTANTLY say things like

and YET its still not obvious to ANYONE but you, if it were so obvious we would agree... that's the way it works.

Point 3. Hatcheries produce 2 SUPPLY not 1, and not food. This is Starcraft not Warcraft. Next the overlords move, that means they can scout, they can run from danger, I admit slowly, and they can provide other nifty bonuses. If the Protoss started with 10 supply... oh wait, they do, AND they had a free pylon? Can we say zealot rush anyone? "TIP" a free pylon allows insta forge/gateway.. The Terrans require the additional 1 supply because of the fact that they build.

Point 4. Zerg aren't broken, Zerg may not be fully balanced, but Zerg are not broken. Your "truth" is a self delusion that you cling to. Your solutions are retarded most of the time, and you have no concept of how the game is "supposed" to work. If anyone listened to you this game would be totally FUBAR, but that's right, no one does.

 

Your example with protoss starting with a Pylon sucks because that would be a huge advantage for them not an incoveince....

 

It is not a tiny diversity, it is a huge diversity that is that is even mathematical...

Zerg start out with 300, protoss and terran start out with 400.

 

After having further thought about this, and even though my frame of reference is the old game to some degree, it still fully applies to starcraft 2 in every absolute way...

But yes, if zerg started out with a hatchery that yielded 9 food, and there was no overlord at the start, this would mean that all hatcheries would be worth 9 food...

I mean, since zerg always made 3 hatcheries anyways, maybe even four, this might have given a sort of imbalance in zerg's favor...

Why? because hatcheries are comparable to barracks, and gateways, but those do not give food... But then it hit me....

If hatcheries were originally 1 supply, then I bet that is what each barrack and gateway was suppose to yield instead...

The zerg would start out with 9 supply and no overlord, all overlords would be the 8 supply that they give.... and all hatcheries would yield 9 supply... now that zerg have this, then each and every terran or protoss warrior unit producer would give 1 supply now. E.G. Factories barracks, stargate, gateway....

Thinking about this in starcraft 2 it makes me feel even more sick to my stomach... because zerg don't get 3 or 4 hatcheries on 2 base... it would be a total waste of money because now they have queen...

This clearly proves that the queen would have to give additional control if it was even close to heading in a balanced direction...



Dude, please hear me out on this... No one will listen to me...

This game was suppose to be founded on the mathematical pattern of 2 same one different, but it doesn't.

Zerg start out with 400 minerals worth of stuff, hatchery + overlord = 400 minerals.

Terran = 400 Protoss = 400 this is all the same, but it was suppose to be 2 same one different....

400, 400, 300

If it was 400, 400, 300, then the hatchery would have to give 9 control...

And then it would align the problem of the hatchery, the nexus, and the command center all giving different supply...

Command center 10, nexus 9, hatchery 9

That brings it from being all 3 different to 2 same one different. 10-9-9

So you can see, by making that simple change it aligns those figures with the pattern

400 - 400- 300 (2 same one different)
10 - 9 - 9 (2 same one different)

Not 3 same 400-400-400
and 3 different 1 - 9 - 10

Now I do see that if this change were to happen zerg would seem to have an advantage because they can get as many as like 5 hatcheries for two bases which would be an extra 27 food in comparison to terran and toss....

That is why all barracks and gateways were suppose to equal 1 food like the hatchery currectly does, or did in the old game.

Because the hatchery is equal to the barrack or gateway, and people would complain, oh, zerg's offensive building gives control when ours does not? That's why it was the gateway or barrack that was suppose to yield 1 food, not the hatchery.


As a final point, I want to discuss Hegel Philosophy of threeness from twoness...

Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis.

The question is, why should we be following this mode trinity mode of thought when it comes to starcraft 2?

Because it applies to Thematics.

The functions of color = Thematics....

When you mix two different colors, you get a whole new color.... and that's the point... How by mixing two different things can you get a totally different thing? The function of color, and or thematics.

This is my final point on why zerg is not balanced... it's because a basic principle does not blend between terran and protoss for zerg.

Zerglings are small units, marines are small units... so zerglings were suppose to come in packages of 2 for 50 minerals which would be in alignment with marine cost?

NO.

It was suppose to be in alignment with protoss cost.... 4 zerglings for 100 minerals. which is 2 food, not 4 food right?

Anyways, the point is

Marine Size = Small
Zergling = Small

Zealot = 100 minerals
4 zealing = 100 minerals

Shared size with terran
Shared production package with toss.

Anways, these two issues correct zerg entirely... it fixes zerg right to the core of what has been imbalanced with them from day one back in 1998...

 

why dont you type in a concise, integrated, paragraph? its so hard to read with these spaced out, non sequitor fragments.

 

Because I feel like each point is that important, to give it its own space.

 

Jesus. Let's back away from your theories for a bit. There are multiple aspects to comparing the 3 (almost) equivalent units/buildings of the races. Take for example the main building, you could compare them by HP, HP regeneration, cost, control provided, graphics, abilities, method of building, energy pool, units produced, effect on its surroundings, and probably some other ones. What you continuously do is take one or two of these aspects and disregard the rest - you can't do that if you want to analyse and fix something. So your want for a 10 control hatchery is plain silly since the 1+ovie makes it distinct from the other two which provide supply on their own. 1 supply difference between T and P is nothing except a means of balance in my opinion. If you're so into this 2-1 thing, then why would you want to make all three main buildings the same in how much control they provde?

Lastly, I think we would all accept your theories if you told us how you know that SC was designed to be 2 similar 1 different. Were you contacted by a developer? Are you a developer? Do you have any relation to Blizzard? If neither of the above, nobody will take you seriously. But if that doesn't bother you and you post here not to discuss SC but because you don't have anything better to do, then be my guest.

 

Why are you mis quoting me trying to make it my point seem less correct?

I said, 9 control. Terran starts with 10, protoss with 9, zerg would be with 9.

Get it right dude.


Oh and dude, btw, I have compared the life of the main bases....

Command center is 1500 Nexus 750 energy 750 life = 1500

Hatchery I think is either 1350 or 1450...

A clear and obvious pattern of 2 same one different.

 

Way too complex discussion for me.
I think the game is pretty balanced even though everyone says Terran is way too strong

 

Apples and oranges. Hatcheries are not comparable to barracks and gateways. I can't produce tanks with barracks. Nor can I produce carriers with gateways. Building multiple hatcheries increases your ability to produce any zerg unit which you have the tech to build. Zerg can change strategies much more quickly and without nearly the wasted resources as either of the other two races.

As it has already been pointed out, you are making wild assumptions. This is completely unsubstantiated and, as such, does not do anything to prove any of the ridiculous claims you are trying to make.

This does not at all prove that the queen would have to give additional control in order to improve balance. How you seem to think that you've proven this by what preceded your claim is amazing.

No, it wasn't. That was something YOU thought would be cute after you googled the number 3. It has nothing to do with starcraft 2 whatsoever.

Again, no. You simply took some random idea and are now making all these wild claims that it somehow applies to starcraft. It doesn't. Not in the least bit. You have no insight into what the developers were thinking when they made the game and therefore have no idea what starcraft 2 was "supposed to be".

You've yet to make a single valid point as to why starcraft 2 should have followed or ever intended to follow the "two same, one different" idea.

Except that making 5 hatcheries would be a complete waste of minerals unless you were trying to expand and a horribly inefficient way of getting supply. If you're simply talking about expansion then the 100 fewer minerals it costs to expand is also an advantage.

How on earth did you come up with all of these things that were "supposed" to be in the game? Where did you obtain this information?

People would not complain. If the game were fairly balanced, or close to it, people would just learn to play their race of choice and have fun instead of concocting reasons why the game doesn't make philosophical sense without providing any reasoning behind the arguments.

We shouldn't.

"thematic", as I understand it, means "of, relating to, or constituting a theme".

Thematics has nothing to do with the function of color.

Actually, YES.

True.

True

True

Huh?

Again we're back to the doubling the number of units produced per larvae by charging twice as much. You have yet to show that this would increase balance or even fit your twisted view of what Starcraft 2's themes are supposed to be.

 

Such a heated discussion >_>
The only thing I find annoying at times are marauders. I'm happy with everything else, even the tanks before their next nerf.

 

Heated discussion? Lmao!

I haven't ever, in all these years, seen such an awesome collection of utter nonsense on any starcraft (2) fansite. Please keep this up, I enjoy reading it. People claiming to know how one of the most secretive developer teams in the world works... that just cracks me up.

 

This is NOT mathematics! This is called Numerology and it's not a science. It's a superstition!

And good lord! Your posts make my head wanna burst in a scream of rational rage! That's subjective idealism you're promoting there! It's a philosophical school that's conservative, has historically killed any notion of progress and you have to lack any rational thought to think in such a way!

I won't bother commenting as like every line of your post would take a paragraph and that would be a huge waste of time and thought for me. Just please stop posting. Go to the strategy section and post about some kind of strategy you wanna discuss. Or whatever! Just not this, please, there's at least 1 class of people that read this and want to kill themselves, just show some mercy to them!

When you mix 2 shots of booze you get a brand new shot with whole new attributes! Damn, this is getting interresting!
When you mix all colours you get black. When you mix all shots you get a night at hostpital.

I'm starting to see a pattern there! Thematics relates to booze!


I FOUND THE KEY TO ATLASMECH'S POSTS!
GET DRUNK AND YOU'LL LOVE THEM!

 

Take a look at the following site...

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/crafts/Colormixing.shtml

As you can see, in 6 different ways with color, you can mix them to get another color, according to the table shown.

But you might ask, why don't I just refer to the 3 primary colors, 3 totally opposing, yet totally equal bodies of color?

The reason why is because when it comes to structure, there does not exist 3 totally unique structures. You can only get the 3rd structure, by combining the other two.

In the following picture, what are the 3 totally unique shapes? Again, the best possibility for there being 3 totally unique structures are the Square, the Circle, and the Triangle. But if I were to ask you the question of what are the two opposing shapes? It would be the circle and the square..



Combining the Circle and the Square is one of the most ancient problems in sacred geometry... Da Vinci himself did so to represent the ultimately sophisticated mechanics of the human body..

He said it himsef, "Simplicity is the Ultimate sophistication" - Da Vinci...



When you actually SQUARE the CIRCLE, you get the triangle...



Truly the triangle is more the likely the opposition to the circle, and because terran and protoss are similar, it is the same Idea as combining the two circles to get the 3rd unique body of the triangle.

Note how the image above overlaps are a certain point... it looks exactly like the concept of merging two circles of color to get a 3rd color..... but merging them to that certain point to also get the 3rd structure the triangle is key.

 

I see you managed to get the jist of my post :laugh:
Yes, I did get your suggested supply wrong, but so what? The hatchery with 10 would've been similar to the command centre, with 9 it's similar to the Nexus, but as I said, that 1 supply difference is just for balance, hence the 9 supply hatchery would make all three main buildings the same... we do not want that now, do we?

Furthermore, the Hatchery can have 1500 hitpoints over a course of time, so it's not 2 same 1 different, it's 3 same. Actually, I would argue that the nexus is the odd one out since it can't heal to full HP past 50% of damage to it. No wait, the odd one out is the command centre because it can't heal on its own, unlike the other 2. But then the hatchery can heal on its own and get healed by transfusion, so the 3 are truly unique. But we can't have it that way so let's look for something... oh yes, both the hatchery and the command centre have upgrades to them, so it's the nexus that's the odd one out! But only the command centre can move and transport, OMG WHAT NOW.

And with that I'm throwing this into SJ. I sincerely hope that you'll eventually learn how to support your claims and realise that a) you're not a genius, and b) you have no idea how Blizzard want(ed) the races.