The Ghost

I read what my fellow bulgarian from MYM said in his little "article" about the ghost and i wanted to see what people here think about it.

1. HP (100hp currently) - is that enough for a ghost? Do you think its too much or not enough to be an expensive combat/caster mix unit.

2. Mana - for balancing's sake they gave the ghost 50 mana, now, do you think thats enough ? Im guessing thats either one EMP pulse or 2 snipes(assuming EMP is 50 mana), im not sure how viable that is for a caster unit, think High Templar who now has a normal attack, and maybe a queen/defiler. I think he needs to have more.

3. How does the Ghost compare to the usefulness of the High Templar,Defiler,Queen and possible new zerg casters? I think blizzard wanted to make the ghost the primary Terran caster, a defining caster unit, although that was a complete failure do you think it will be different in SC2? Do you think you will be able to compare the terran ghost with the other powerful casters?

4. This is more of a suggestion. We have a permanent cloaked fighter in the Dark Templar and the Lurker. We also have temp cloakers with the arbiter in sc1/mothership cloak in sc2 and burrow from the zerg.

Terrans are the only ones who dont have a perma cloaker, so here's the deal:
Having the ghost cloak cost only the initial 25 mana, but not taking mana once activated, here's the other thing, it wont gain any mana either, and if mana reaches 0 (or some other number like below 25 or something) it will decloak automatically. Otherwise the ghost will be cloaked. This really will be a "ghost"

 

Does it do enough in its lifespan, for its cost and purpose though?

 

1. HP (100hp currently) - If this is the amount that is easily killed if spotted, then it is the right HP value: an enemy must have a way to preventing nukes from falling down;

2. Mana - Ghosts should have average mana. The whole point in it is to allow the Ghost to infiltrate a base, and for that it should be able to lock-down observers and 1hit-kill standing-by Overlords. Locked Observers could be taken down easily by regular rifle shots, or cripple detection enough so you get to drop a nuke unnoticed. And Overlords might be too slow to replace the killed one before the Ghost is gone. Also, they shouldn't loose mana for being cloaked, but need to uncloak to regenerate this mana. This way they would have limited use of their infiltrating skills (snipe and lock-down), but be undercover limitlessly and be able to regenerate mana if they find a safe spot to de-cloak. This way the Ghost would fulfill its role of infiltration best, imo.

3. How does the Ghost compare to the usefulness of the High Templar,Defiler,Queen and possible new zerg casters?

Ghost is not a caster. Science Vessel is a caster. The Ghost is an unique unit of infiltration. Its purpose is that of sabotage, getting the enemy with its pants down. Casters don't do that. It is not meant for field use. Its role is parallel to the fighting troops, by attacking the enemy apart from the main troops. The writer surely played too much against the computer, as the computer doesn't have brains to use the Nuke in smart ways. Only another human player can effectively use it.

4. This is more of a suggestion. We have a permanent cloaked fighter in the Dark Templar and the Lurker. We also have temp cloakers with the arbiter in sc1/mothership cloak in sc2 and burrow from the zerg.

Terrans are the only ones who dont have a perma cloaker, so here's the deal:
Having the ghost cloak cost only the initial 25 mana, but not taking mana once activated, here's the other thing, it wont gain any mana either, and if mana reaches 0 (or some other number like below 25 or something) it will decloak automatically. Otherwise the ghost will be cloaked. This really will be a "ghost"


I agree 100% with you on this one. Actually, I'm even going to power you up for this idea (it was you who gave it on the other topic too, wasn't?). Ghosts should be able to remain uncovered until the time arrives. If the enemy didn't sweep his own ground to check for Ghosts then its his problem. He should also have detections near the base ground entrances, so its the enemy's fault if they're caught off-guard. It's fair in my dictionary.

 

I dunno. I think energy should be a actuall resource for the ghost, meaning no "free" cloak. The old Ghosts were Specialists with very limited but powerfull use.

In concept they are the medium for the Terran Trumph Card, the nuke. But since the mechanics of the nuke made it very risky to use the Ghost was underused. The new Ghost is more general use, thats why he got anti light armor bullets and snipe.

 

Still, making it a field unit isn't right. They should enhance its infiltration capabilities. The major problem was that cloak was very limited. I think neither DKrutovsky or at least I'm not saying to make cloak free. Make it expendable, and by making it not regenerate while hidden is enough.

If you ask me, the correct amount of mana a Ghost should have = mana for triggering 2 cloaks (50) + mana for triggering 2 skills when undercover (2 snipes or 1 lock-down = more 100); Don't worry I'll explain this math.

If we get 150 mana for the Ghost and make cloak fixed after activating, they could still not waste any mana on cloak at all, and spend it all in skills. So make it that they can either cloak and snipe 2 times, or don't cloak and gain an extra snipe. This way they would not abuse snipe. Same with lock-down: making it cost 100, there would be no way to spam lock-downs and take away all armored units from the game by making lots of Ghosts. A Ghost should be able to lock-down only once, keeping it strict to powerful/useful units such as Observers, Thors, MSs, Colossus and such. With better targets this time, the last thing lock-down needs is a buff. Just bringing it back would be great.

At most, make the mana 200 so the Ghost could use a 100 mana lock-down 2 times but not be cloakable, just like in SC1. Buffing cloak and giving it drop-pods would be enough to make it more efficient in its role.

Strategy:
A Ghost should be no good in field, except in certain occasions where there would be a too powerful enemy such as an Ultralisk, Thors or Mother-ships. Their abilities should resume to remaining cloaked, but having to de-cloak to recover their mana, and infiltrating for dropping nukes. Now that detection was nerfed, the whole game was made Ghost-friendly.

Versus Terrans: Picture a Ghost coming to a base. He soon finds himself a static terran detection tower. What to do? Drop-pods and destroy it ASAP in a quick clean raid. It would even fit as distraction if you wish to launch a nuke right away. While the defenses are busy taking care of the few attackers, they might not notice the nuke warning so fast. They would also, in addition to finding the little red dot (it only appears as a big target for the player launching the nuke, as Karune stated), have to use the surveillance stations' mana to correctly spot the well positioned Ghost. If the enemy fails, a nuke will tear down an area of his base. If he however finds the Ghost, dead Ghost, and possibly a halted nuke. Keep in mind that one could send several Ghosts at same time, and an enemy could have worried about making a Planetary fortress and nothing of an expo, leaving him without an option to figuring the Ghost position in case one of his towers is strategically removed. Another way of doing Terrans would be to strategically drop-pod his workers. This would only be possible if the player doesn't have decent detection.

Versus Protoss: Cannons no longer detect anything. A cloaked Ghost could walk inside a Protoss base unharmed for most part. But they might get Observers. What to do? Use the surveillance station on his base a) to find the best paths to get inside and b) to find the most damaging way to attack him *evil grim*. Once you've spotted the Observer(s) nearby, get in line and immediately lock-down. While locked, the Observer shouldn't be able to detect anything, as it is its functionality to work that way. If it is paralyzed, to me it should not be able to detect. Thus, if the enemy's Observer is out, he is going to have to move another one to the earlier location and find the damn Ghost. Whichever he moves to that location, might open up a new infiltration spot, or at least annoy the guy if he had spare Observers.

I find it fair that each Ghost could theoretically only take out one observer at a time. Hit-and-run should eventually open up room for a nuke. Another way of doing Protoss is finding a caster away from an Observer's sight: go undercover and Snipe him. Taking out casters for free is nice, as casters, after replaced, take time to load mana. And in the configuration I'm suggesting, a single Ghost would be able to take down 2 at a time, which seems pretty fair to me. It is still a nice way of sabotaging.

Versus Zerg (old ones): Upon getting to an advanced post or expo, a Ghost might find a few defenders and Overlords to watch over that area. Getting there cloaked and launching a drop-pod to distract them is enough to snipe 1-2 Overlords. Overlords are slow, and getting more than 2 in key-location would be exaggerated. This way a Ghost could open room to launch a nuke unnoticed and lay waste to a group of enemy structures. Another way of doing Zerg is going to a high-ground in choke-point and waiting. If an Overlord gets nearby, snipe it and change location. The goal is to snipe incoming Ultras or tough zerg units from an advantageous location. Snipe's huge damage would disregard the Ultras' thick armor and take away important hit points, perhaps halting an entire attack for the lack of a decent tank. Sabotage.


What we were all forgetting: now, allied to a cloak-capability, units can stay hidden behind plants and doodads. If used properly, the combo Ghost + terrain visibility + surprise element can be fatal. It is sure to move the enemy out of a key-location and take away an advantage from it. Ghost is the sabotage unit, made to turn the table of the game. Please, Blizzard, don't make it a field unit!

 

Protoss have buildings that detect cloaked units, dont think you can just walk in, drop pods are expensive, and its only a few marines, 3-4 zealots are more than enough to take down the marines from a drop pod.

Also, you get no mana while cloaked, so you can only use a few abilities, after the mana is below a certain % it gets decloaked.

As for the ghost not being a caster you are terribly wrong.


Protoss - High Templar, ground. Arbiter, air.
Zerg - Defiler, ground. Queen, air.
Terran - Ghost, ground Science Vessel air.


In SC2,

Protoss - High Templar, ground, Mothership Air.
Terran - Ghost ground, Nomad Air.
Zerg - we dont know but i bet all my minerals they will have 1 ground and 1 air.

 

Which one?? As far as I know, only observers act as detectors so far. Do you have a trustworthy source to verify this?

Actually, it would be terrible if a Ghost use as last resort the cloak when he's at 26 of mana and cannot keep it because it decloaks after a time period. Having to decloak to recover mana, to re-enable the use of skills, would be enough. Let the poor Ghost walk away cloaked with 1 point of mana. He's going to have to wait a lot to get his mana back anyway.

This doesn't make it a caster. Its whole purpose is to drop nukes. If nukes are a spell then I might agree with you. Otherwise it is an infiltration unit to me. Aren't Corsairs casters too? If Corsairs don't fit into your description as casters, neither should the Ghost. Being a caster implies acting as support, and Ghost isn't such. It is a sabotage unit. It is meant to infiltrate alone, in a separate group, to use the surprise element.

Plus, I didn't catch the meaning of the rest of your first paragraph. Nobody said the drop-pod units are meant to survive or anything. They're meant to create a diversion or suicidal raid into the enemy's workers. Nobody requires them to live afterwards. > As for drop-pods being expensive, I recall that their price was regarding the price of marines that came with it. On the current version you build them separately, so I believe the price has gone down to compensate making your units apart.

 

The Ghost was anything but a Field Unit in SC, and that was one of the reasons it wasn´t viable.

On Protoss detection: Cannons still detect, where did you hear otherwise?

 

Nope, they don't. I think it was on the first demos. There was even a pic of some cloaked units attacking the cannons and ppl wondered: how are they not being attacked? So Karune said that cannons weren't detectors anymore. All detection had been nerfed, enabling more effective DT rushes and use of Ghost. If you have a different source, let me know.

 

"all detection has been nerfed"

I wager my left arm that includes Overlords. See? SEE? I told you so.

 

Well, it might have been a misunderstanding. 'SC armory' calls Phase Cannons detectors, but Starcraft 2 wiki isn't sure. Perhaps we should ask someone who played at Blizzcon. This could be one of those things that were changed between question batches. Although I really hope I got it right, and detection has really been nerfed.

 

Removing Overlord's detection just makes the races a little less unique.
Having floating fat crabs that can see invisible units and transport stuff as Zergs 'supply building' was pretty much amazing in SC1. All those really special units was what made SC1 so fun. In SC2, most units seem to have equivalents in the other races.
Terran and Protoss have cliff climbers, and I REALLY think that they should give Zerg something different. Zerg should have almost all land units benifiting from it, like Nydus Worm and Overlord. If ya need to get up a cliff, just get an Overlord. That's how Zerg should work.

 

I noticed something in your other post above that's wrong.

Ghosts aren't detectors and they don't have lockdown anymore.

 

As I said in my first post here, Zergs should get Mutas early. Sort of instead of a cliff-crossing unit, an early flier. But I also reconsidered and hope that they get climbing lurkers, because that would rock! \o/

I also hope that Overlords keep detectors. Instead, remove detection from the spore colonies. Overlords should remain the best unit in the game.

Instead, keep the Ghost ability to snipe down an overlord and to lock-down an observer, and make them the only detection of their races. This would make the Ghost a very good infiltrator. If it isn't like this, they should at least make it. If it is, they should keep it! ^^

@ Ekulio: OMG dude! You seriously have a reading problem. If you read right above, I'm saying in this thread that Ghosts should get lock-down back, and in the same post that in order to infiltrate a base you should sweep the area. Ever heard of surveillance station? Radar-sweep?

 

Theres this Dark Obelisk thing that acts as a detector, thats what i last saw/heard.

The drop-pod units wont be able to do much vs 2-3 cannons is what i meant, by themselves they wont do much, even as a distraction.

For the cloaking i was just giving drawbacks to being perma cloaked, we can boost or lower the costs of being permacloaked for it to be viable and balanced.


The corsair simply has an ability, its primary use was its normal attack.

The ghosts' attack was very similar to an arbiter's attack, not useful at all.

A caster is a unit with several abilities, Ghost had - cloak,lockdown and nuke.

In SC2, its Snipe,cloak,EMP, and the 2 drops (nuke and pod). Thats about as castery as they come.

Dont beat around the bush saying that the corsair might be considered a caster you know perfectly well its not.

Terran had Nuke, protoss has mass invisibilty through mothership or arbiter, zerg had idk...nydos canal or something other thats unique. It just happened to be the ghost that can drop the bomb, he's still a caster.

 

lol! That was only a rumor, based on the fact that we saw many of them throughout the pictures. They never had any ability besides making DTs.

Well, call it what you wish, in a game with unique units, the last thing we should be discussing is that the Ghost needs to be more fitting to a "caster" profile. Other examples shouldn't draw the line, as its goal is to be original. And since all of its skills are directed towards infiltrating and surprise attack, it should not be made able to be a field unit.

There are units that do better when in masses, there are units that rely on going alone, in order to get by unnoticed and catch the enemy off-guard. I think the Ghost is the only unit in the game that could be made capable of this.

However, if they manage to find a mid-term and make it a bad but useful field unit, and keep its role as sabotage-man, I'm ok with it. I just don't want to see the Ghost loosing its trade-mark, which is to me the reason why he was so fun to play with.

 

I think the current ghost dun look cool enough.

 

The Ghost without Lockdown is not so interesting.
Without Lockdown is the Ghost simply very un useful against the Protoss.
The Ghost is particularly against Protoss and not zerg.
It would be very well that the Ghost Lockdown gets.

 

Lol Lockdown at 100? WOw... Ghosts aren't exactly impossible to get, and with the upgrade, they get 200 or more energy. That's two lockdowns per ghost. How easy is it to destroy motherships and thors now? Otherwise, I agree with you 100%

I tinhk it should be a base inflitrator, with some use in the battlefield. In all of the demos with the big fights, you see nukes ending the battles. That, snipe, and drop pods will make it useful for behind the scenes support. And I hope the ghost does get the cloak without losing energy

 

They don't have lock down anymore. What are you guys talking about?