Terran Predator, is it even necessary?

Just when I was glad that they got rid of the Valkyrie, we find out about the Predator. Unless it has some special abilities, it is already redundant with the Viking air form, which was one of the reasons why Valk sucked.

I don't really understand why Terran would need an additional dedicated AA, especially when Valkyrie fell miserably short. Although still too early to tell, it look almost like Blizzard is repeating the same mistakes again. Terran players didn't get Valks beause Wraith could do the job and was better in every other way, it looks as if it will be the same thing this time, only people not getting Preds because they could mass Vikes and have it work.

Terran already has great AA capabilities, and now more than ever. They have so much ground based AA, and ground based AA is way more important than dedicated AA only units.

Terran ground combat units that can attack air: Marine, Cobra, Viking ground form, Ghost, Thor. That's five, Zerg had only 1 in SC1 and they managed just fine. In addition Battlecruiser and Viking air form also provide additional air based anti-air. That's seven ways for Terran to attack air with units, that's a lot, and that's without the Predator. With Predator, it will be eight, that is a LOT.

Protoss only has two ground units that can attack air at the moment, Terran has 5. I'm sure most people can tell that Blizzard has put a large emphasis on the Protoss air fleet, it's incredible and covers everything needed, very close to being self sufficient without ground support. But even with Protoss presumably designed to have the strongest air force in SC2, Protoss still has only six different means of attacking air assuming Carrier and MS can still attack air, air and ground units combined.

Unless the Predator is so unique that its details will drop the jaws of every SC fan, I think it would be better to just scrap it and give Terran something else instead. Terran doesn't need another Valkyrie.

 

its a bit premature to think about scrapping it, have they even released any information about attack type, range, speed, hp, cost, tier, spells. also what makes you think viking will be stronger?

 

I'd like to know a lot more about it before deeming it unnecessary. Although the first thought that came into my mind when I heard that it was a dedicated AA unit was "wait... the viking does that."

 

Umm.. yea, I've pointed that out myself GuiMontag, before you get ready to jump the gun on me, read my post.  So then at this point what are we to talk about?  The weather?  It's an opinion based purely on speculation reflecting on how Terran was in the past.  You think all the new topics are popping up right now because people got their hands on stats?

And I didn't know that I thought the Vikes would be stronger than Preds, please point out where I slipped my mouth on that.  Because actually, my entire first post is assuming the Preds taking over the Valk's old job, and almost for certain would be stronger than Vike's AA.  And this is all if Preds don't have some really special tricks but is just a combat unit. Also do notice that the majority of the post strays away from Vikes, but rather the overall AA potential of the Terran race.

Feel free to disagree with me, but make some sense when you do.

@ Paragon, where've you been all this time?  It was kinda weird not seeing the Tobasco girl in every thread.  I still think that she's giving me a look btw...

 

Vikings are going to be a very important ground unit in the terran arsenal, I think their ground capability is their more important role. Viking air ability is a counter to fast air attacks that terrans were so vulnerable too in SC, such as mutalisks. Like the website even said, this will give the terrans the ability to counter that without having to rely solely on turrets and goliaths who aren't as mobile. For heavy aa in the later game the Predator will be your unit, while Viking air ability will be most useful in giving it mobility, but it will be better suited to ground combat.

 

well you said it would be redunant with the viking air form and that people wont get preds because there massing valk.
I still think its too early to think about scrapping it.

 

Yes, the Viking isnt a solely dedicated air unit. The unit doesn't have to replace the valk or wraith or anything either since this is an entirely new game. The viking may have anti air capablities but by no means makes it the staple Terran anti air.

Remy, I think the reason why he thinks you think vikings are stronger than predator because it seems you are saying the Viking is good enough and that the Terran doesn't need another unit that fits a similar role. That would be like saying the Protoss don't need a Warp ray or anything because they already got a anti air unit the Phoenix.

I think the Predator is indeed nesscary since the Viking is more a multi-purpose ambusher, moblie attacker, etc.

 

It's because that's exactly what happened in the past for Terran. Even though valks were the designated AA, most people still took wraiths over them and valks were never used. Valks were one-dimensional and overspecialized, also an over-commiting choice. People naturally took wraiths over valks cuz wraiths were generally more useful and had much better tactical options, but were also good enough AA. This equals redundance between valks and wraith AA, yet wraith AA was merely a partial aspect of the unit as a whole. It was even more plausible for Terran to choose wraith over an actual dedicated AA unit because Terran by design already have much AA capabilities otherwise because Terran is all ranged weaponry, it is more so now in SC2, way more so.

Now it's happening again. I can't see how any good can come of Preds being part of Terran. If Vike air form is so weak that Pred's existence is justified, then it hurts the Vike in that it will be mediocre offensively all around. Goliaths were not good with their ground damage output, but had awsome AA. If a Vike had sorry AA, then there would be no reason to be in air form other than to cross terrain since it has AA in ground form and staying grounded is generally safer against air. Now if you add it all up, you would get a Vike that's on the ground almost all the time yet it doesn't have a strength in AA or AG, it's even worse than goliaths. So weak Vike air from AA = bad.

Now consider the opposite, strong Vike air form AA, now you end up with a much better overall design and purpose for the Vike unit. However, since the AA capabilities of the Vike is decent AND Terran already has obscene AA by default, you would really go for more Vikes to cover more uses for more situations instead of Preds even though Preds are stronger AA. If Vike air form AA doesn't suck and is good enough AA combined with the rest of Terran AA(and there's a LOT), why would you put the same money into anything AA only? The more strategically prudent investment would be the one that is more versatile all around and capable of meeting different demands in different situations. Thus, in this scenario, the Pred AA would be a redudance. So now, strong Vike air form AA = bad also.

It is bad only if Pred is in the game, or at least as a Terran unit. It is better for Terran overall to just have a strong Viking air form, even scrapping the ground form air attack altogether if need be. I don't see how one of the two(Pred AA and Vike AA) will not be limp. Basically I'm saying make the Vike air form BE the Predator, and scrap the ground form air attack if after play testing the Vike is too strong overall.

All this is of course, as I've said before, only if the Predator doesn't have some incredible super unique special abilities or jaw dropping tricks. If it's just an air fighter, no matter how you tweak the stats, you're gonna end up with one dead Terran unit, whether it's the Pred or the Vike.

EDIT: @PancakeChef, Warpray and Phoenix wouldn't be redundant because the Warpray can't do a Phoenix's job, against mutas Rays will get raped. Protoss also does not have the huge ground based AA capability like Terran, in that there is only Stalker and TA.

No, because that's exactly what a Wraith was. Yet, Valks(being what Preds presumably would be) almost never got used. It's the exact situation as before, Vike's versatility doesn't change things. The only thing is that the Predator still holds a wildcard, since it could be completely awsome and way more than just dedicated AA.

 

Wait, what is this Predator?

 

if predator would be a AA flying unit for the terran then i hope its attack is LONG RANGE. fires spinning missiles at very long range (longer than the siege tanks in siege modes). that would be cool for its name, predator. and so that it will not be useless like the valkerye which are vulnerable to ground attacks. it will be safe against ground units most of the time cause im guessing it would be fast and fires or attacks at a safe distance.

banshees plus predators combo would be something. 8)

i hope blizzard read this. lol

 

Well let us not forget that the Zerg are suppose to be the ultimate ground fighters with their ability to swarm huge numbers into a base. They have not conferemed any Zerg units for the game yet... this frightens me. Sure we know that their basic uints are going to be in the game but, what about the ones they(Blizzard) have kept MOST secret? The Protoss are good with both air and ground, the Terrans are great with air and the Zerg we all know are the best on the ground. We can't judge what we don't fully know. Maybe if the Terrans take control of the sky and can kill without using ground units then the Zerg could be in trouble.

 

@remy: Maybe i missed something but what makes you think the predator will even have an attack?

If you look at the US military today they have an actual plane, or a UAV (unmaned air vehicle) called ..

a predator, they were made for recon at first but eventually had weapons mounted on them so it could be the new science vessel, a flying detector with some ability's

 

This is in another thread but I'll stick it here for better organization so we only have one thread on the Predator.
http://sc2spot.com/content/view/43/1/
"Wraiths are back as an anti-air unit called the Predator. They can switch between a form that attacks air units and a form that intercepts incoming missiles and destroys them. When it transforms, the lasers switch positions. It is a three-pronged aircraft just like the Wraith, but cannot stealth."

I think thats a pretty useful ability. Although if it just intercepts missiles and by missiles they only mean actual missiles rather than missile type attacks then it would only be good against terran. But if they mean missile attacks then it is pretty cool.

@remy: I had some stuff I was busy with.

 

I don't know why the Predator is described as the new Wraith when they are very different and don't have much in common.  But an air unit that is used to intercept incoming missiles would be very unique, although if it's only actual "missiles" perhaps kinda useless like you said Paragon.

After watching the new Terran video, I am more inclined to believe that the Vike air form = Wraith AA, not in exact damage numbers but the nature of it.  They described it as good against capital ships, which will be good single hits as opposed to good AoE vs tactical air.  The Vike air form itself IS the tactical air, which was also what Wraith was.  A tactical air unit such as wraith or scout, generally are adequate AA in conjuction with the rest of your forces, but not the best against swarms of air.

@ Dxun, I believe an air-only attack was the initial info we started with. Hence, all this talk of it taking the place of valks and whatnot.

 

You got to remember though this isn't the first Starcraft and things work differently this time around. Then there is the fact the Starport can be upgraded to Starbase to make able to produce while lifted off and moving and how are you gonna make anti-air for your other units when the Viking is a ground unit coming from the factory.

In my opinion the Viking is a different role than the Predator. How can you say its only for anti-air and is the main anti-air for Terrans when it starts out as Ground support and the main strategies Blizzard suggests its use for etc is like flying into somewhere and reverting back to ground form and that is good for attacking capital ships, no where did they mention it the is the main-stay Terran anti-air just because it attacks air doesn't mean thats it main role or that another unit that can attack air will be redudenat because the Viking already does it. Just as the Warp Ray is a different type of air unit, so is the Predator. The goliath had anti-air but we still had the Wraith didnt we?

You are also making the assumption its gonna play and fit the same roles and uses as similiar units in Starcraft 1, when this is a entirely new game and new mehanics.

 

PancakeChef, it's great that you go into all this about different roles and this and that and yada yada.  But the fact is, the role of primary AA in SC1 for Terran was VALKYRIE and not Wraith, but guess what?  Every half decent Terran player used WRAITH for AA(we talkin' strictly air AA not ground AA) instead 99% of the time.  So the INTENDED role of anything doesn't mean jack, because that is why I started this topic in the first place.  Yes, there was Wraith even though Goliath had AA, but the point is that Valks were redundant and were not used.  Why didn't you say Marines had AA?  That's not the point, it's what is there yet didn't get used.  And FYI Wraith was the air unit suited for taking down capital ships in SC1 as well.

And quite frankly, I think the Starbase will be quite useless personally.  That high up the tech tree, and it's for AIR units.  If we're talking about a mobile ground unit production building at the top of the tech tree, it might be a different story, but nope it's for air.  The fact is, air units already come with great mobility, why would you need to make them while on-the-move?  It's like a big slow air target that says shoot me if you're bored.  I realize that it has the replenish energy ability thingy, but all of it is just way too high up on the tech tree to see much use at all.  You won't see a Starbase, if it's even worth getting in the first place, in 95% of the standard games you play.

 

can any1 post a picture of the predator i wanna see it

 

The viking while can be a deadly AA i betcha is a bit expensive than a dedicated AA only fighter. Likewise, the transformable mecha are tradionally in other games a bit easier to destroy. Since they have more advance parts that bullets and damage tend to get in the way. So its even possible that the Terrans are getting more flexibility. Imagine you build a large AA only fleet to find you rushed by zealots or zerglings.

 

Valks were great tanks vs. interceptors and corsairs. Because their attacks were splash, they could hit protoss invisible units when targeting the arbiter nearby. And interceptors couldn't have the distracting effect on it's attacks, because enough valks would destroy many interceptors, no matter how many they were, because it doesn't hit any single target. If the players you've played against didn't used Valks, I'm sorry. But Valkiries are a very good unit with many uses in later game, specially since the Terran doesn't have a psy storm to deal with mass air strikes.

I have no idea where exactly Predators would it fit, but apparently it' an air defense ship. So we can expect the terran air to be die hard, now that Nomads can fix them and predators can defend. That will be an interesting combination...

 

Here ya go ^_^
[img width=670 height=502]http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2105/805246b67aa0b3ab2ux7.jpg[/img]

I think the predators are a necessary and great unit for the terrans. Comparing it to the Valkyrie, the predator is quick, cheap, uses less supply, and an early mobile anti-air unit. I think it plays more of a defensive role because of it's "interceptor" ability, and it does not attack the ground so base assaults are out of the question.

The unit is pretty much early on so it should thwart most air rush assaults.