StarCraft2Forum.org Terran Omnidiscussion

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This month's omnidiscussion was focused on the development of the Terran race within StarCraft 2 and important issues brought up by participating forum members!




Part of our ongoing series of discussions in which you, the user, tell us what you want Blizzard to know, BirdofPrey has compiled a report on exactly what you wanted heard about the Terran race. An in-depth review of the problems and solution needed to be discussed for the Terran race in StarCraft 2, some interesting topics were touched upon. Make sure not to miss this comprehensive article of the state of the Terran race in StarCraft 2's development.


[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']When asked to rate the units and mechanics of the Terran on a scale of one to five, forum members gave an average rating of 3. Only one member gave the Terran a score of five on the scale and one of the members who has had a chance to play recent builds of Starcraft 2 gave a rating of 1 showing that the members of Starcraft2forums.org aren't as happy with the Terran as they were with the Protoss, despite the flaws noted for that race, and that playing the game has not only don nothing to improve that outlook, it may have actively harmed it.[/font]
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The thing that seems to be on everyone's mind is the Thor. The general consensus is that the Thor as originally shown was much better than its subsequent forms. At the moment it seems to be the mutant unit; it is a behemoth and yet is built at the factory and does nothing but swat flies. Many feel that the Thor is now nothing more than an oversized Goliath and yet it doesn't seem to fit into that role as well as the Goliath, so it could probably use a role change or, barring that, a model change. Many still like the built by an SCV idea and are sad to see the Thor come from the factory since some uniqueness of the unit is lost, and the model doesn't look like something that could come from the factory unless it were the same size as a siege tank. Some have said that the Thor is still supposed to fit in a tanking role, but others have mentioned that even with its self-healing mechanic it still doesn't seem to last long enough for the job; coupled with the fact that anti-air units are not generally put on the front lines or called as a main target unless an aerial attack is imminent, the role of tank isn't really a good one at the moment. At the end of the day the Thor is in sad shape because it doesn't really fit anywhere so it would be best if it were either replaced or made back into a battlecruiser on land.



The other unit that people don't seem to enjoy is the Medivac. It might just be nostalgia that drives everyone to ask for the Medic and Dropship back as separate units, but nevertheless, it has been asked for and decent reasons have been given. The main problem is a result of the reason for the Medivac's creation in the first place: Reapers. The Medivac was designed to be able to follow Reapers around to heal them, but if you have Medivacs flying around already then you might as well start a Marine drop since carrying units is the Medivac’s main and original job; another thing to note is that when the Reaper would be most useful at its role is when anti-air cover prevents a player from getting a dropship close enough to do a drop at which point the Reapers wouldn't have access to medical services anyways. Two solutions have been given, neither of which are mutually exclusive. The first suggestion was simply to give the reaper enough health to survive a raid without medical services and the second was to give the medic an ability to remote heal by doing something such as attaching a medical drone to one or more of the reapers turning him into a healing station with jump-jets; naturally this would have to be balanced by only allowing the medic to deploy a limited amount of drones at a single point in time.



Other than those two problem units there were a couple of other units that raised some minor complaints, The first of these is the Jackal; A few members don't seem to like the firing animation or the linear splash while others are unhappy with the model; the main gripe about the unit, though, has been that it is felt that the Jackal should fire on the move to improve its utility. Another unit of minor concern is the Reaper; along with the aforementioned suggestion for giving it enough health to survive a raid unsupported, many feel that the reaper seems to come a bit late for its role of harassment and base raiding.

Of course the units aren't all that has been noted as a problem or disappointment. Many members have complained about unit models from the get go, and a large amount of the criticism has been directed towards the unit models; some of the models aren't what they could be and one member described them as, "look[ing like] they're Fischer-Price, rounded edges so a baby doesn't cut his gums on it." Besides the Thor whose role and model don't match and people thinking the Jackal is rip-off of the Warthog and just about every other jeep with a mounted gun, a large amount of people seem to think the Ghost is too bulky and would prefer to see the older model back, though right from the start many didn't like the huge backpack that bounced around, so inspiration should be taken from the original game and Starcraft: Ghost; a relatively thin form fitting suit with a chest plate here and a shin guard there but nothing all to bulky, The ghost is special ops, he shouldn't look like a standard soldier ready for extended deployment.



A final thing that has been commented on was that many feel that the drop pod was an interesting mechanic and shouldn't have been cut, maybe toned down so you can't drop the whole war on a single spot in less than a minute, but not removed outright. With the Protoss having the fast deployment of warp-in and Zerg being able to sprout a Nydus Worm in the middle of their opponent's base it’s not really a good idea to deny Terran players that same kind of flash mob ability. Starcraft 2 is a much more mobile game than its predecessor and the Terran should not get left behind.

 

Wow, First to comment amazingly. Oh by the way your font thingy is messed up.

About the Thor, in my opinion I think the Thor should be cut as a unit all together because it's role overlaps with the tank and right now, as it said in the article, it's just a big mass of some slow machine. The only reason the Thor hasn't been cut is because people think that just because it's big and bad makes it a great unit... That annoys me.

The medivac, I also do not think it is such a great idea. Although it's a good mobile healing unit, as the article says, they might as well carry some other units. And the reapers usually enter anti-aircraft area so they can't get the healing anyways. The healing drone is an excellent idea for this though.

The jackal, I'm okay with it except that the model should be upgraded to look like something better, as well as the moving while shooting mechanic.

Well, I'm disappointed in Blizzard for removing the drop-pods, I agreed that this was a great way to compensate for the Protoss Warp-In and the Zerg Nydus Worms.

 

"Zerg being able to sprout a Nydus Worm in the middle of their opponent's base "

Hasn't this already been nerfed back to only allowed to sprout in creep? Somehow i dont see an overlord being able to lay creep down in the middle of a terran base after they've got nydus worms.

Overall, I agree with the statements against the terran build, though I hate playing terran in SC1. The Thor being anti-air and being built from a factory thats roughly that same size as itself seem rediculous.

As for the jackal, even if they dont give it the ability to move and attack, they should at least make it like the vulture where it could attack before coming to a complete stop. Vulture raiding is only as effective as it is because with good micro, they can fire and still move about to avoid enemy attacks.

 

I am a fervent supporter of the VIKING back to the FACTORY.
And I love the idea of the Thor being built, but yes, if it has no real role, than is a serious problem.

 

Problems with Thor:

It being built from the factory is obviously ridiculous. Blizzard has been trippin' with themselves.. Thor MUST be built with SCV.
Since it is built from SCV.. it must be high, high tier.. and high, high cost, and therefore, high high attack and hp and armor. Here's what I believe would make Thor fit somewhat.. although it may still stick out like a sore thumb.
- Make the thor as strong as it was initially, and then make it even stronger. Make its build time and costs high.. maybe around 2/3 or 3/4 cost of a Mothership almost. Next, make its main attack ground only, non-explosive, dealing extra damage on buildings and armored units (Immortal's shields should initiate). It's "Siege mode".. should be a temporary 'spell' like thing, with a cooldown (or use energy)... and the attack from there should be an Area of effect attack, with heavy damage, and splash dmg, and also Hits Air Units in that area. To balance the thor, it should be a LOT slower.. probably 80% as slow as a reaver, with no means to transport.

Problem with MediVac:

Doesn't make sense in the starcraft way... Yes it makes sense in real life.. because it'd be awesome to have dropships that heals people.. I mean that's the perfect combo. But right now it doesn't fit... why?

This is because the terran's BIG, GENERAL problem right now.. is that it can pump out units just way too fast. I am 70% towards taking out the nuclear reactor thing off Terran. (Actually, maybe the nuclear reactor thing can only work for mechanical units? meaning Factory, and Starport. This way, Terrans won't seem like zerg, but can still get that cool add-on advantage).. Still.. the nuclear reactor, making the speed of production x2 is almost unbalancable.. One can imagine terran pumping out lots of tanks or spamming certain mech units. Terrans are supposed to be strategists... Their units should be Medium in strength relative to zerg and protoss. The way terrans win is because of their versatility and strategical Units (which is greatly improved by the Reapers and i guess the Marauders).. NOT by the amont of units they have.

Back to the point, the Medivac, because of the production capacity of terran, are ineffective because the marines/reapers are currently Expendable. If they weren't, then the medivac should prove to be a useful unit.

Problems with jackal:

Gay attack animation... it spits out fire.. it stops and spits out fire............................... Firebats are not speedracers.
I have to say.. not because of nostalgia, but the vulture grenade attack is just perfect for bikes.... how else would you attack on teh bike? .. the other possible would be the first build.. a rail gun which points at the direction of enemy...

Problems with Drop pod:

What problems? PUT IT BACK!! Holy crap, i pissed my pants when I saw it for the first time..... WHY did they take it out?? it's the equivalent of toss' warp in, and zerg's nydus worm... Besides, the droppods can only carry infantry units... One can maybe put a little timer, kind of like the Nuke... before the droppods come successfully, to balance things out. Remember, having a ghost is already High tier, but you can only transport infantry, i.e., low tier units... so it's not that hard to balance...

 

I was excited to see Thor at first simply because it was a big, cool, mean-lookin beast.. a good portion of it's coolness was how it was built, as originally seen in the terran game-play demo!! Take that away and it's already becoming less cool. Hearing now for the first time that it's been changed to be built from a factory is definitely ridiculous and the point about it overlapping the role of the tank is true too... all of a sudden the Thor's prestige is flickering out I think it's a cool idea, but does it really fit the game or not? Ultimately I think the units should be made undeniably useful/cool.

As Chax424 above me said, I too think the Viking should be made from the factory, that just seems the coolest to me.. and for all the complainers about the viking, boohoo, the viking is awesome, you just gotta control your units well to reap the full potential of them!!

The Jackal, whatever, I'm not to picky about it, being able to shoot on the move seems key as it's so lightly armored.. but again, I'm not too picky about it's looks, as far as the the general artistic direction of the game thus far, I'm certainly pleased and confident this game is going to look awesome regardless.. certainly a major improvement over SC/BW. Blizzard should keep it semi-grimey though, as it's a game about all-out space warfare and there ain't nothin pretty about that!!!

Drop pods were an awesome idea, I was juiced when I saw them in the terran demo... I was bummed to read that idea was nerfed.. drop pods should remain a possibility...

I feel similar about the Ghost's looks as I do the Jackal's.. I'm not real picky so I'm sure I'll be satisfied with however it turns out..

As for the medivac dropship, I just hope it truly is as useful as it's supposed to be... if it's supposed to be a more heavily used unit/transport in this game, it better be worth it and not lack any ability it might need to really fill it's role.

I know there's lots more to be done on the game but I just want to say to Blizzard that I feel you guys are doin an awesome job and keep up the good work... It seems sometimes to me that there's far more critisizm about things in the game/the game in whole than praise and that's too bad because I'm lovin how it's coming so far!!! As much as I want it to come out sooner than later, I also want it to be undeniably awesome too when it finally comes out and I know that takes time. I JUST WISH YOU GUYS WOULD STEADILY SHOW MORE ON STARCRAFT2.COM, just so fans like myself can see more of the development.. Hi-def gameplay videos/demos RULE!!!!! I WANT TO SEE MORE

 

Oh yeah and UnholyUrine hit the nail on the head.. excellent points you made, about everything.

 

Actually I agree with all of the above statements apart from the idea of the drop pod. Well it is an awesome idea as everyone agrees. But it is too much like the Protoss warp in and the Zerg Nydus Canal. I liked SC 1 cause all 3 races were different. And different ways of doing things.

I'd much prefer something like a massaive speed increase for the dropship. So it can get in and out and still have a chance of surviving. And without that healing aspect like the Medivac has of course.

I think this would be a good idea:

One race: Can warp in units really easily to the battle front. But while fighting they are a little cumbersome to use but have a higher damage or Hit points to compensate. (Protoss maybe)

Second Race: A lot of long range units, pretty versatile on the battlefront and easy to command. But all of the units have to be marched or transported to the front. (Terran Maybe). A tier 2 upgrade to drop ship speed would really fit here nicely.

3rd Race: Something like a Nydus Canal. And for me I'd want the entry point to be a building. Well all Zerg buildings are living creatures in a way so it'd work out. I'm uncertain though if it needs creep on the end where the units will arrive. But I don't think it should be instantaneous. Like give it a delay like they have to travel underground through the canal to get to the exit which would be close to the battle front. And the exit could be a temporary building that is built (quickly mind you) and if destroyed the units that didn't make it out would just appear back at the entrance because only the exit was destroyed and not the underground organic tunnel or tube. (Maybe the Zerg)

Needing creep at the end point or making it a short term building that is destroyed after a certain time. But not both. But while traveling in the tunnel the units are safe from harm, and in the battle front they are quick units to make up for this.

So that's 3 totally different ways for having units transported across the map.
I did really like the drop pods for what they were, but not for being in SC 2. But they are too Protoss like. And to me keeping the races diverse but balanced is what I'm after. So I'm against the drop pods.

 

Thor: I think the Thor is the victim of a bad PR campaign. Honestly.

Generally, gameplay (not coolness) criticisms around the Thor revolve around two things:

1) Overlapping with siege tanks. When the Thor was portrayed in that video from BlizzCon 2007, it was shown blowing up a command center really fast, using an anti-ground AoE attack with long range. That was quite similar to a siege tank. However, contrary to popular belief, that was the only thing the Thor had in common with a siege tank, and that ability has been removed.

2) Super Goliath! Many months ago, Karune said the Thor's primary is GtA, causing people to dismiss it as a "super Goliath". The Thor's role has been expanded towards tanking* -- pointed out by Dustin Browder's posts a couple of times -- but I don't think enough people have seen the WWI 2008 video where it shown engaging in land battles. They reconstructed themselves pretty quickly in that video, which you can see on this page: http://www.sc2blog.com/2008/06/29/worldwide-invitational-2008-pictures-presentations-videos/

*Siege tanks are poorly designed, IMO, and aren't good at tanking, ironically enough. They only have 150 hit points, after all. The only way the Thor could be replaced by the siege tank is if the siege tank is given a lot of hit points. That's not likely to happen, since it's not actually a tank, it's just an artillery unit with a secondary mode that looks like a tank.

Medivac: Due to playtesting, the medivac's reason for being has obviously changed. Now it supports marines in open battle, very quickly healing those that have been dropped to low health. However, since Blizzard doesn't update us frequently, old ideas remain stuck in our heads.

I agree, the reaper should appear earlier in the tech tree; the same time as the stalker.

I didn't like the jackal at first, but if you see it in action you'll notice it's really not a vulture clone. However, it might still have little reason to exist, considering the marauder does something similar.

I liked drop pod, but not as a ghost ability, primarily for flavor reasons. I don't know if it's possible to make it flavorful and balanced, so maybe it should be restricted to the campaign.

 

read bolded words, too lazy to separate the quotes

 

I completely disagree with this. I firmly believe that the Terrans should have heavy units just like the Protoss and Zerg. As far as I know nuclear reactors can only be used on lower tech units. Terran marines sucked balls in the original Starcraft and I think the reactor is one of the better changes to help out with this.

From what I've seen of the new anti-air Thor on youtube it looks pretty awesome. It has a faster reload time on its twin arm cannons and the anti-air mortars look powerful in numbers. I really don't see a good reason to cut or change the Thor from this.

The medivac is a great new idea for the Terrans. It adds flexibility to your tactics and can heal your infantry easier than a ground based medic can. I personally won't miss the plain medic from Starcraft 1 at all.

I agree that the drop pods should be brought back as maybe a high tier buildings ability.

The only thing that bothers me with the new Terrans is the Siege Tank (in Siege mode). It looks great in it's tank mode and when it transforms. But in Siege mode the cannon should look bigger and more intimidating.

If the poll was still open I would give the new Terrans a 5 from all the cool new features, units, and improvements I've seen.

 

The Terran seem good to me; I voted 4. There's some problems, obviously, but the game still has a ways to go.

Thor: This unit's role has yet to be found; the current 'Anti-Air' role isn't doing it for me. The Terran could use a close range damage absorber, so my suggestion would be to give the Thor short range battering ram-like arms or a high powered fusion cutter, similar to the SCV. This would make the Thor very intimidating and give it the clear role as a base breaker; hammering at defenses while absorbing hits for the various ranged Terran units depending on it doing so. It would also be in the front lines to reveal targets hidden by the fog of war for additional bombardment (Siege Tanks).

Jackal: The Jackal has been renamed by Blizzard as the Hellion; Karune also states it has splash damage, more similar to the original Firebat. Everything about this unit is an improvement from the Firebat, while also covering the role of the Vulture in a new and unique manner.

Medivac Dropship: There's been alot arguement over this unit; I'll miss the Medic, for sure, but this new unit opens up alot of new strategies. It'll be hard to re-adjust, but once you do, I guarentee people will see the benefits of this new unit over the Medic.

Viking: This unit should be built from the Factory, yes. The flight form should become available via upgrade from the Starport.

 

I think they should keep the dropship and the medic seperate. Then create the ability that the dropships can use the medics to turn it into a medivac as long as there is one medic inside.

Its kinda like the Red Alert two ability where if you put an engineer inside the IFV it turns into a vehicle that can repair other vehicles.

 

This article is my thoughts in a nut shell

 

What I wanted changed has all pretty much been said from the 1st post. The jackal should not stop firing. Would you stop firing a flamethrower on a zergling? Taking out the drop-pod, is insane. The only reason why they toke it out was because the ghost has too many abilities. Take out EMP. All it is helpful for is for the seige tank. Terran players don't use it much. Drop-pod would be used a ton.

 

I think there are key elements in the terran build that prevent it from being more together like the other races.

1. There unit massing is not even funny.
2. Units arent fitting the jobs right.

those 2 points alone are enough to floor any good race.

nuclear reactor :
this add-on needs a change and i think i know what will work. Cutting the build time on unit production by a percent might work. basic units would still be built from the Producer (barrack,factory,star port). This change would still fit the old speedy feel. cutting build time by something like 25-50% should be great. Atleast u wont be getting marines 2 at a time. Some one said marines suck......less see your try and mass early tier units agenst 30 or 40+ marines with a few upgrades.... you'll quickly rethink the OP of a reactor.


Thor:
I'm truly in a daze about this unit. Yes this unit is soooooo terran its not even funny. I can see the human race building monsters like this to scare the enemy into a sh*tless dazed and amazed state... There fore the unit should Act that way. its attack for anti air should remain. But the animation should change. it should be giving lage launch pads on the back that fire multipul missles when attacking air. As for its crappy ground attack can i suggest a Burning ground effect? one that will effect even your own units. (having the ground burn after the attack will force a player to limit the number of thors made so that you wont mass them in the hopes it will work. The final mechanic of it re building it self is nice. i would prefur to see this stay. It gives it a nice feel to the unit and is a new quality that i find nice aslong as u have your thors hotkeyed and keep respamming it. Hell you have to focus fire on a roach... why not a thor. U want it to be the center of attention insted of yout tanks, marines, reapers, mauraders, ect...ect...

I also think the thor from the factors is the most horrible idea ever... Its really lost my favorit value when they changed this. Having thors made from an SCV will cut down on the spamming of missle turrents in some places while serving as a ground baker. (watch out kiddys if my thor comes to life the muffin man will be heating up battle fields and shooting down air with sprinkles!)

Finnaly. The thor has been suggested to be a battering ram... with a......melee attack.... Has any one seen the movement speed of a thor. Even when they down sized the thor it wasnt fast enought to run to the front and have become the hit point shield you would want it to be. A melee attack on something that lage just dosent even make sence. Not even a ultralisk would (lore wise) would grow to that size and want to melee you to death. Its just not terran like. Can you imagine a thor trying to drill a single zergling. you would laugh at it trying to spin around to find and choose a target. Melee thor is a big No-No.


Jackal:
I love this unit. i'm a little confused did they say this unit would be for internet play anymore? or did i read something wrong. Even if it is still in internet play i love this unit. Its a great micro unit and i cant wait to use it. I guess i dont mind the art work on it. I dont really care. The unit has a good roll and i guess thats enough to distract me from its okay art work.

Medivac Dropship:
I think each drop ship should come with either a medical android, or medics that it spawns on a cooldown. They should dissapear after a while. The fact its the drop ship it self healing the unit is a tad odd to me. I mean i get the concept but the animation for that just wont sit with me. I also wanna add this change is a good one tho. Even tho i dont like the animation the concept is amazing. 3 dropships filled with marines from 1 or 2 barracks with reactors and the 15 hp upgrade is going to be down right annoying. I love this. it sounds down right cool.

Viking:
If the thor is removed from the factor like i would hope it should be the viking should be moved down. (only if the thor is moved from the factory)

Drop Pod:
i dont know. i really dont know

 

I agree that the Thor is the biggest problem for the terrans. They really need to bring back the old Thor.

 

"This unit's role has yet to be found; the current 'Anti-Air' role isn't doing it for me."

No one reads my posts *sniff*

"Jackal:
I love this unit. i'm a little confused did they say this unit would be for internet play anymore? or did i read something wrong."

The older unit with the railgun attack (the Cobra) was removed ... a long time ago. The Jackal is now called the Hellion, and the Hellion is available in multiplayer.

 

I'm reading your post

Anyways, I would be outrageously dumb to have a unit available for online play but NOT single player. And no, I think the other poster meant that Blizzard described the Jackal as a hellion, unless I'm wrong.

 

The hellion would be available in both. I'm not sure where you got a different idea from.