Ok, so on the other thread, I explained how I believed God to be the mixture of art and math, merely, a pattern. The problem is, I never explained the pattern that starcraft follows. That pattern is actually quite simple. It goes, 2 similar, 1 different. For example, lings and zealots are more similar too each other then a marine is. Or how the nexus costs 400, the command center costs 400 and the hatchery costs 300. Or how the academy is 200 minerals, the cybernetics core is 200 minerals, and the hydra den is 100 minerals 50 gas. Note how I said, 2 similar, 1 different. You see this pattern through out the entire game. This is common knowledge. But when it comes down to it, people say that there is no general uniqueness between the races. Well, they are are wrong. There isn't equal uniqueness between all the races because zerg is the only one that is generally unique from the other two. Since on a specific level, we have specific examples of things being set up in a 2 similar, one different fashion, and on a general level we have 2 similar races and 1 odd race, this proves that starcraft is a fractal. But is it just any fractal? Perhaps not. I Believe starcraft could actually be representative of the golden ratio in fractal form. Since the game follows the pattern of 2 similar 1 different, this means that it doesn't use the ratio of 2/3 .6666(Irrational non terminating). It suggests that it is more then likely following the formula of the golden ratio which is .618....(irrational non terminating) Let me quote from wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio "The golden ratio has fascinated Western intellectuals of diverse interests for at least 2,400 years: Some of the greatest mathematical minds of all ages, from Pythagoras and Euclid in ancient Greece, through the medieval Italian mathematician Leonardo of Pisa and the Renaissance astronomer Johannes Kepler, to present-day scientific figures such as Oxford physicist Roger Penrose, have spent endless hours over this simple ratio and its properties. But the fascination with the Golden Ratio is not confined just to mathematicians. Biologists, artists, musicians, historians, architects, psychologists, and even mystics have pondered and debated the basis of its ubiquity and appeal. In fact, it is probably fair to say that the Golden Ratio has inspired thinkers of all disciplines like no other number in the history of mathematics. —Mario Livio , The Golden Ratio: The Story of Phi, The World's Most Astonishing Number" and then from wiki on what a fractal is.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal "Because they appear similar at all levels of magnification, fractals are often considered to be infinitely complex (in informal terms). Natural objects that are approximated by fractals to a degree include clouds, mountain ranges, lightning bolts, coastlines, snow flakes, various vegetables (cauliflower and broccoli), and animal coloration patterns. However, not all self-similar objects are fractals—for example, the real line (a straight Euclidean line) is formally self-similar but fails to have other fractal characteristics; for instance, it is regular enough to be described in Euclidean terms." Take an atom for example. It follows a set up of 2 similar, 1 different, because we have protons and neutrons in the nucleus, stored in the same spot, and both being similar because they are much larger then the electron, which would be considered "The odd man out" and low and behold, the electron is the odd man out. Starcraft does represent a 2 similar 1 different pattern. We know that the ratio between the similarity and the difference is not 2/3rds because the two of the similar are not exactly the same. It suggests the golden mean ratio. The golden ratio could actually be defined as the one and only fractal fraction. But anyways, the point is, on a on the grand scale, the most general level, zerg is the odd man out. Just take a look at what is said by the starcraft armory... http://www.sc2armory.com/game/zerg "The zerg are a race entirely unlike the terrans or the protoss." Proved. Now, if zerg are suppose to be a race that are ENTIRELY unlike the terran or the protoss, then this can't be half assed. Zerg have to be totally different in function unlike the terran and the protoss which are merely similar. So for example.. my proposal that since zerg share their unit production universally by the hatchery, then this shared theme should be seen entirely in the race, and all hatches should share the entire production of all the total larvae of all hatches, at one hatchery. Zerg are the odd man out, and their uniqueness cannot be half assed... they have to be totally different for the game to be balanced. Starcraft
I can see how you're drawn to the golden ratio -- you want to compare the likeness of the races, and assuming that 2 are similar and 1 is different, you have three relationships: PZ different ~ difference = 1 PT similar ~ difference = 0 TZ different ~ difference is =1 The average difference = (1+0+1)/3 = 2/3, which isn't far off the golden ratio. You're interpreting that as a geometric harmony between the races, so I understand what you're looking at, and what you want to be true. But you can't hope to optimise this geometric harmony unless you construct a more precise quantitative measure of racial similarity; because at the moment it is only qualitative. So what metric are you going to use to quantify racial similarity? Secondly, jumping into talk about fractals - just because 2/3 is approximately equal to the golden ratio - appears over enthusiastic. In what way do you believe the racial similarities are exhibiting fractal patterns? Fractals patterns in what data? And how are they forming?
Academy is 150 minerals Anyways, that's as far as I got. I'm not in the mood for philosophy application through arbitrary Brood War numbers
Damn, I've noticed that zerg seemed to be lacking over the years but maybe I was wrong... It might come down to one weird b.o. The question is, what is the standard zerg b.o.... I used to think it was 12 pool, or over pool, but what I've realized is, is that the standard zerg b.o. may be something awkward, but so simple it wasn't realized. It goes, 9, gas trick with one of the later drones after they bring back minerals, for a perfect flow gas trick with no time or economy lost... Then get 10th drone, and then make pool with either 10 or a later drone returning minerals... then make a lord So, so far it is is like a 10 pool... then you make lord, and then you make one more drone 10. So this would be a 10 pool, 10 hatch build, except that the key point on why it's weird and different, considering that it is a weird build already, is that the pool came before the lord, and the expanded hatch at natural comes before making lings, and this gas trick came before pool. One could still scout early and do this same build... But I realized that this build is the most perfect zerg build possible, because you end up making the most lings as possible as early as possible, and still have the choice to hold off on the ling production based on what you see... I have never seen anyone do this build before, EVER... I'll post a rep real quick from rep depot so you guys can really see it down and see the perfect timing and weird stuff to this b.o. that you do.. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=32361 I want someone to show me a pro doing a b.o. similar to this one please. If someone has any rep of any pros doing something at all like this, and i mean it's gotta be practically the exact same, then let me know...
I think the Original poster is forgetting one thing. Well for the multiplayer aspect at least the most important thing is fun. Not numbers or the perfect fractal or trying to prove the uniqueness of each race. If the game is fun today or fun in 7 years time people willb be playing it. Mathematics is perfect in the way the OP is describing. You get concrete answers for many questions. Almost the perfect science. But it's one drawback is that it is dreadfully boring. I know I did a little university maths. Ugh so boring. And this relates to SC2 by saying the game does not have to be perfect. It just has to be really fun to play now and in 7 years time still like SC1 was. Nothing can be perfect. As we are not God. This is just a game made by imperfect beings - Humans. So a game that is fun to play for the next decade is the best we can hope for. And I'm sure Blizzard will deliver that.
I like how he bases everything on numbers but when he gets them wrong (all the time) he just doesn't care about it. You could connect any 3 units in the game and make up a story why they cost that much or why they have those abilities. You're mad, period.
The academy used to be 200 "You could connect any 3 units in the game and make up a story why they cost that much or why they have those abilities. You're mad, period." lol, who's mad? Oh, so you want me to make up a story now? I can do that
I'm going to stick with my opinion, for now, that the player may actually be, when all is said and done, behind why I thought zerg was weaker. It's possible, that if you do a flawed b.o. the result, as the game goes later and later, could be getting your *** completely steam roled, and then you are left thinking, yes, but I did everything the best it could possibly be done, I countered right, etc etc. Perhaps, at least, in my opinion, the purpose of zerg is to simultaneously slow the opponents economy down, so thaty you can expand yours faster. That's why I think that b.o. is the ultimate b.o. because it's the most time effective, and effeciently uses all the larvae, keeps them flowing.... and it's actually safe because the expanded hatch gets up early enough to be defended. Standard protoss is to build a pylon first because protoss has no other choice. But terran can either build racks or depot first, however, standard play would still be depot first. Zerg on the other hand, I am thinking the standard play is different then getting supply first like the terran and protoss. I think that the b.o. is the most effecient, timing and cost effective b.o. possible. They say, don't hate the player, hate the game... maybe I should hate the player here. I want to see some pro doing this exact b.o. Otherwise, I think the pro scene is a bunch of horse ****.
I may have a better example here of how the b.o. working its best that it has ever worked for me so far. Note how I'm only a 93 apm z, and he's a 270 a.p.m toss, and ended up beating him quite well... http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=32456 Trying to make the point that zerg players play wrong here, and this should help support why this is right.
