Siege Tanks

I've seen a lot of replays in which terran players use siege tanks as the backbone of their armies. It seems that a lot of times all other units are built simply to protect the siege tanks. That's fine and all, only an observation.

Now my question is this: how much does a terran player need to worry about splashing his own units with siege tanks?

I've never actually used siege tanks in SC2, as I'm primarily a Protoss player, and I find siege tanks very hard to micro, so I really don't know.. I'm assuming they splash their own units.. they do right? Just from replays I've seen, even when the opponent gets units right into a ball of siege tanks, the siege tanks still seem to kill them off no problem.. the self-splash doesn't seem to be too detrimental.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

 

i think it's just smarter AI. seige tanks no longer overkill units, and i think they auto-target further away from friendly units whenever possible.

 

Is that... really the case asdf? talk about dumbing the game down. Both of those things make tanks a lot more effective and negate spectacular aspects where pro players could really shine.

As for the topic, siege mode attacks have recently been redesigned to originate from the centre of the target unit rather than the closes side of it, meaning tanks will splash more against small units (against which they are less used because of their bonus against armoured), so essentially their splash has been nerfed. If you take into account that all Terran units are ranged then the chances of a tank damaging its comrades is very low and is only applicable in special circumstances (like drops or quick unit surrounds).

 

check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD11iPX8YcY

seige tanks are somewhat smart and won't overkill units. i'm not too sure about avoiding friendly splash though, but i wouldn't be surprised if it was the case.

 

Well, two things make seige tank friendly splash really negligible:
1) Terran has no melee units
2) Melee units from the other races either have low HP and die before they can get to your units, or are so big (ultralisks, archons) that the splash circle completely fits inside them.

 

I like that units, all units mind you, are smarter in SC2 than they were in SC1. If the pros are pros because their units dont shoot themselves then its like professional basketball players being professional basketball players because they remember to tie their shoes.

Things like that are pretty basic with today's technology and I think having units avoid overkill makes the game focus on creativity and all around skills.

As far as tanks are concerned, yes they are designed to shoot enemy units while not killing your own. BUT if the enemy is completely intertwined with your army then yes, splashing your own units is just unavoidable. In the event that my terran army is surrounded completely, I sometimes de-siege my tanks and rely on my better army composition to win. Other times when i see my army is losing either way i go for broke with the tanks and kill my units off as well as theirs just hoping to even the playing field.

 

As of patch 11 (http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23094049316&sid=5000&pageNo=1#12) Siege Tanks fire at the center of their target only. They cannot fire in ways to cut down friendly splash damage.

Tanks do not overkill as they did in BW.

 

Do you think the nerf on the damage on tanks is suitable?

 

absolutely, playing against them was annoying then, but it was just like the void ray nerf...juuuusssttt enough to make it balanced.

People tend to have bitter feelings towards units that were slightly stronger so instead of wanting to see the unit balanced out, they want it nerfed into the dark ages as revenge.

Im happy the nerf worked out so that they are a viable option but not the only way to go anymore.

 

I am one of those people. I hate stupid psi storm that I would remove it completely>=\

 

The Tanks are cool i use them most the time i cant really be sure if they do FF or not i have had my units over run with zurglins and lost more then i wanted to. but the tanks siege mode i find is more defensive then offensive. if they had the Goliath i would use them more then tanks. Tanks are cool and all but with out proper support they as good as dead.

 

In my personal opinion, out of all the units in the beta right now. Tanks are the most imbalanced. There is just no good counter to them as zerg, with the new nerf to infestors, we have 10 seconds to control the tank. Also, it only takes 2 hits from a siege tank to just about kill my infestor. Ultras are to high up in the tech tree and most of the units are squshy. The terran is usually backed up with marauder slows or anti air from vikings or something. Unless I have a significant advantage over the terran player, I find them the most annoying unit in the game.

 

In that case then it's not that the siege tanks are overpowered, it's just that the enemy has made units to counter the units that you made to counter the siege tanks.

 

Um no... Just no. The opponent makes those units whether i counter his **** or not. He knows all he has to do is make 5 tanks to completely demolish my army. Don't tell me to get Phoenixes or something to counter. Because there is no ****ing counter.

 

"Because there is no ****ing counter."

well... i suppose listing counters IS indeed pointless when you decide you don't want to see any.

It seems like what you want us all to say is "Yeah! you're right! The reason you arent winning games is because the other army is completely cheap and you probably are the best player EVER!"

Well, listen... the solution to siege tanks is simple-----

here it comes....

....AIR! They cant shoot air! OMG! surprise!!!

If you are zerg, build mutalisks!!! Ta-da!

"But he builds vikings! QQ"

Well, my young QQer, if a player can make siege tanks... AND enough vikings to kill your mutalisks then that means you are doing something wrong. (Ik, Ik... impossible... right? You are the best player of all time and all...)

If you happen to be playing as protoss though, Id suggest you try the phoenix approach (you are the best player ever, so im sure microing the lift isnt a problem)

But if the micro is too intense, try some void rays with those phoenixes you made earlier.



Either way, your problem is that you either refuse to make the counter... or get wrecked when you do because you allow them to outproduce the hell out of you.

All in all though, please don't say that there is no ****ing counter to a slow unit that can only attack ground.

 

Siege tanks can be countered easily - Immortal. I still love having 10 blow away at the enemy while my thors and hellions guard them.

 

before anyone says tanks are op remember the 3 supply and increased cost.

 

Why do people complain about siege tanks when void rays still exist?

 

One other viable counter I've found is dropping Zerglings on them. They'll shoot at the Zerglings which splashes on themselves. You could also throw some Banelings in to hit the marine/marauder ball.

This tactic is highlighted in the Day[9] daily 141 if you want to see it. I highly suggest it as he also mentions several other tactics Zerg can use vs Terran.

Now that I've mentioned some counters, I'd like to say that I believe that tanks are very powerful. Here's an explanation of why:

Let's just look at TvZ. Tanks do tons of damage from very far away, admittedly they can't move while doing so. Running zerglings, hydras, roaches, or banelings is more or less suicide. The first unit that comes to mind to deal with the threat is mutas as tanks can't attack air. The problem with air is that the tanks aren't alone. Good Terran players will have a good mix of marines and marauders to go along with the tanks. The marines can easily stop Muta assaults easily. Because of this, they normally have a lot more marines than marauders in their army, and there. Tanks+Marines will destroy all equal tech the Zerg can pull up. They can honestly just ignore marauders.

The only reasonable way to kill the army then is to distract the Marines so you can get Mutas/drops in to deal with the tanks. If the player is good, they'll see what you're trying to do and just not let the marines get distracted.

Another response to the tank/MM army is to tech to Brood Lords or Ultralisks. But that means the Zerg has to spend time teching up an entire tier.

I've also seen a lot of people simply saying "just don't let them make the army, harass". But they can harass you too.

My point is all of these tactics require you have more of something than your opponent. You need more Mutas to kill their marines (definitely wouldn't be a cost effective fight). You need more tech than them. You need more micro to pull of the drops or the mutas. It's always more more more.

But on the otherhand. Of course you need more to win. That's the point. The better player wins. But I suspect you really have to outplay your opponent to get past the tanks/marines.

Here's something I'm gonna try and post the results of here. You are all welcome to try it too. I'm gonna have a friend make an army of just marines and tanks and whatever upgrades he wants with 2000 min and 1000 gas.

Meanwhile I will make a Zerg army with 2000 min and 1000 gas. No unit's above tier two.

I feel this experiment will show how a Zerg army fairs against an equal sized Terran army.

Finally, I'm a mid level gold player looking for a mid level Terran player to practice against. Anyone interested? You don't have to be a Gold player, silver or platinum would be fine too.

Edit: I did my experiment and the only build I did that worked was 5 Ultralisks and 10 Zerglings. I didn't do it a ton though.

 

Mr VampireBob,

Did you try to make just mutalisks in your experiment?

Something I think you are forgetting is that whatever units you make to counter the marines, especially air units, are fighting against a group of marines that have the value of the tanks subtracted from them.

So If you were to use your money on just mutalisks, you have the advantage against the marines especially because you are much more mobile.

At this point you can completely ignore the tanks because you have no threat to your army from them. Just flying into their base will likely result in huge damage to his economy and even if you kill all of his marines with but 1 measly mutalisk remaining, that one mutalisk can attack the tanks all day

If he builds static defenses, then that means he spent 125 + 100X minerals (x=amount of towers) on setting up that defense which further deducts from spending money on an army.

Idk what to tell you, but when you have X value of mutalisks going up against marines that are valued X-(tanks+marauders+engineering bay + 100(# of towers)) then you have a distinct advantage in that matchup.

Granted you cannot spend all of your money on mutalisks, but whenever I am faced with an army that consists of mainly marines marauders and tanks I immediately focus all of my resources into mutalisk production for a period of time.

Plus, since you have mobility, you can expand more aggressively because your units can fly in anywhere they are required quickly which leads to even more being produced with the surplus of resources.

All in all, this has been a good strategy for me that only requires making 1 unit + whatever happens to strike my fancy.