OK so anyway, I was against this regular Terran player, and as usually - he goes MMM (Marines Marauders Medivacs) which is almost unstoppable. Now I've had several strategies against this, every single one including teching to Tier 3 to beat his Tier 1 (how inconvenient is THAT?!) - Colossus, High Templars... (Now you need 2 colossus + range upgrade to be successfull, and even if you do, he can just counter the blasted *** out of you with his Tier 2 Vikings - yay!) (Oh you can get High Templars but you'll miss out on scouting and if he goes mech you're f*ckd, let's gamble ) - Ofcourse I protect my base with Sentries & Stalkers (and some Zealots) - and if he tries to get in I block half his army out, half his army in, and beat em to shreds (though his 4 barracks will replace em in seconds, but what the f*ck yeah?) ANYWAY - I decided to try another swing PvT because now that I'm in Platina and approaching Diamond (currently #3 in Platina I believe, raising quite fast) the Terrans have actually started using Vikings O) to counter my Colossus strat, or Tanks to rip my High Templars to shreds. Now ghosts are just overkill. K so let's go on with the game. I started just like I always do, I end up with 2 Gateways, a few stalkers & zealots, and 2 Sentries to block the ramp. He attacks like a moron, I pick off half his army and is able to chase him away. I figures, I might be able to deal some damage? Nah, during the attack alone he was able to pump out about 20 marines, so I wasnt able to. Decided It would be wise to just fall back. At this point, I got my observer out and decided It'd be a wise plan to scout. I built myself a Robotics Bay to get my Range Upgaded Colossus's out and now here's the beautiful new strategic part, I also built a Stargate. I had plans for that. I saw his carefully crafted army with Marines, Marines and Marines - oh and look, a Marauder. No worries, my lone Tier 3 Colossus will take care of that it--- Oh snap, he's got medivacs. K, so at this point I need 2 colossus to really inflict enough damage on his infantry. I'm OTW building my Colossus's and get a few more Zealots out - at this point I build an Archive to be able to tech Charge at will, otherwise Zealots get way more eaten up than they should. And, I build a Fleet Beacon. I've also Expanded, since I managed to push him away - and I need the extra minerals. I mine gas first, I need alot of it. I tech up to High Templars and get Psionic Storm, then I get a few of them out with a handful of Zealots accompanying this. While doing this, I've queued up 2 Carriers (!) @ my stargate. I've also got a few Phoenix's out to counter tanks & kill medivacs if he's going to my base to Medivac Drop some Marines. He's doing just that. I get all 3 medivacs and all marines, I saw him coming with my Observer. He's got ****loads more Marines in base though, obviously. And some Siege Tanks. Anyway I decide It's time to make my move. I mean, I've teched up to Tier 3 + All upgrades, I got 2 Carriers, and look - a motherf*cking MOTHERSHIP out, I've got a few High Templars to counter his Ground, I've got 2x Colossus, and I've got Zealots & Stalkers to take the beating. 3 Immortals even. So here we have a beautiful mix of Tier 1, 2 and 3 units with upgrades (note: Charge was finished on Zealots) - and even my Mothership out to support em. My Phoenix's waited in the back, ready to Beam up his tanks! Alright so I decide It's time for me to make my move: I go in with Immortals in the front to pull the Tanks attention to to them, and his marines come rushing to kill the immortals in a few seconds. NP I think, pulling my Psionic Storms up their asses and killing off a huge part of his army - while doing this I came from the side with my Phoenix's and Beamed up his tanks - they died shortly after but did their job. BUT OH NOES! His vikings are INC, and they're on my Mothership/Colossus - and so are his missile Turrets. By now my entire Stalker/Zealot army is ripped to shreds and my High Templars, turned into Archons, have had their blue asses kicked back into the void. You'd think that once I vaporized over half his army with Marines only using the biggest counter there is, actually the 2 biggest counters, I'd have the win in my grasp - but wtf, the Terran must've used some special kind of A-Leftclick command and "run-out-of-thestorms-fast!!" commands because he managed to rip my army to shreds anyway. I had to fall back because all the interceptors were dead and my mothership was--- oh yeah there it goes. Byebye. Upside, however, I did manage to bring down his Tier 1 first unit army xP Now I expanded to the 3rd base and by now I had 7 Gateways, porting in more Zealots, Stalkers and High Templars to use - at the same time building Colossus from Robotics facility and more Carriers - and I was geting a new mothership. With my second attack, I barely managed, but I did manage, to bring down his 3rd expo he had just recently built. I scouted it out with my Observer. Now I saw him try to expand somewhere else, and once again I just barely took that down - and merely a second before my mothership died, I bringed in Reinforcements I had macro'd up during the attack. I managed to take down his base. SO THIS MEANS: Don't be discouraged, Protoss Players. If you micro like a monkey on Speed and macro simultaniously, using a combination of Tier 1, 2 and 3 units (+ upgrades, ofcourse) - while keeping an extra eye out so that your Colossus's and High Templars don't die fast, you can actually beat the Terran Player who's spamming Marines and Medivacs with a few tanks lieing around. Great! So all you need to do to counter his Tier 1 & 2 is get Tier 3 + Upgrades. Take care though. His Vikings will kick your Colossus's in their balls. BUT HONESTLY: Terran is slightly overpowered atm, and if not, require way less skill and thinking to achieve the same results. Basically, the race is too simple - and It's too easy to Bioball everyones ***. But honestly, you can sometimes counter it if you play well enough, but you're going to need every unit and upgrade you can get your hands on. Hope you enjoyed my story
Nice story bro, like how you wrote it LOL. I agree terrans advantage is that they are just to simple. They dont require much and there units are pretty narly. BUT they can be beaten!!
Love the way you wrote this...makes me think back on my freaking battles that literally had me pulling out my hair. I love that i finally got a confirmation that terran can be beaten...some day i will beat em!
Lol nice. Gotta say tho, surprised he let you tech colossus, high templar, and mothership, he should've been putting a lot more pressure on you early-mid.
Nice story Like every other Protoss player I'm having issues with this build Don't suppose you have the replay to hand do you? I've had limited success with massing void rays, waiting for him to start raping my base then just destroying his first But that's not really a counter lol. =/
Lol thats like my SC1 strat vs terran. I'd put a little aggression on their base, be sure he knew where my main was, then expand fast. I'd make most of my buildings at the expansion and I'd throw down a 3rd expansion and make buildings there too. I'd tech to arbiter and build up a huge ground force. Because tank/goliath was so ridiculous to fight against and I'd always lose in a straight battle, I'd allow him to siege up my main base and slowly push in. I'd offer token resistance as if I were trying to hold my base. Then after he's in my base and immobile, I'd recall a HUGE force inside his base and take out all his production buildings. I'd still be on two bases and he'd have nothing but his initial force so I'd win the war of attrition in the end. Nothing else really seemed to work well for me against a good terran player except reaver/dropship harass.
The terran clearly let me tech that much without countering because he was a scrub, that's why It's sad that he was close to winning, and that he was in Platinum/Diamond Stanith, you're welcome to add my profile name (Endroil) and ID (703) online and contact me at any time for P v T questions. Truth is though, a competent Terran will always be difficult to handle - however I have an old strategy which seemed to crush every Terran player until i reached Platinum. I Have more complex strategies that work well against skilled Terrans aswell, but they're way more difficult to pull off compared to the A-Leftclick the Terran's going through.
i personally dont even go for collosi cause they die to the vikings really fast =/. but high templars are a must against MMM ball imo. storm on units then feedback the ship. i do get immortals though they help with building pushes.
kingsky: Yeah though Terran doesnt seem to realize Colossus are VERY easily counterable until Diamond - yes High Templars are effective, but easily counterable by Ghosts. That's what's so convenient for them. Easy to counter all our T3. In order to really be effective in an end-game battle we need superior micro to utilize our Tier3 before they have the chance to micro the **** out of them. There are strategies against Terran, but the race is just so simple.. and the strategies are excessively difficult to pull off against an equally skilled one.
I would say terran are just slightly overpowered in t1, which would be easy to counter if Blizz added one or two units to each race that made it more balanced, such as bringing back the lurker to hit infantry units or giving the protoss a good anti infantry unit early in game. Otherwise, the good ol MMM will continue to be overpowered.
Amberlamps: Next expansion mate - more units. Doubt they'll add any units before that, if not relatively small unit changes - such as removing the Medivac and bringing back the Medic (like substituting a unit) while giving Terran a new transport ship. Well, It's just an example (Heard that's going to happen. No good source, so no trust put in it - but It'd be comfortable to only have to counter ground to kill MMM) But before the next expansion they have to find a way to balance it. Yeah, Terrans Tier 1 is overpowered. That's for sure. To require Tier 3 + Upgrades to beat Tier 1? That's laughable. Then geting countered by Tier 2? Just wow. Terran's not abnormously overpowered. It can be dealt with, except It's easier for them to counter the "dealing." - But they are overpowered. The game has been out for roughly 4 weeks now for crying out load, how likely is it that all 3 races are perfectly balanced? I don't like it when people put neverending faith in Blizzard to have a perfectly balanced game. Yeah, near-perfect balance will probably come with time, just as in SC1 - but right now, It's not balanced. I had a discussion with a guy recently. He claimed Terran's most certainly not overpowered. I asked him to explain. He said that "My main race is Protoss and I've defeated Terran many times" - I said that just because something can be defeated, doesn't mean It's balanced. He disagreed. I told him that SC2 have been out for 4 weeks, how likely is it that It's completely balanced. It's virtually impossible for every race to be balanced - so I asked him, out of all 3 races, which race is the most overpowered one, if any? He said something like "LOL, SC1 was balanced" Yeah. SC1 has been out for what, 11 years, there's quite a difference right there sherlock. Frankly this guy was a waste of time with some weird belief that in order for something to be overpowered, it has to be unbeatable. Point being of my Wall of Text: Some change should be done. I'm not entirely sure what. I'm pretty sure removing the Medivac and implenting Medic is the first part of it - this way you will need more barracks to produce the units you need - so your MMM ball will hopefully be smaller. And If It's not smaller, you've used Cash on one extra Barrack compared to now. If you've done that, your Airport might be delayed, and It will be harder to counter for example early Colossus. Colossus will be more effective against the MMM ball since there would be no air targets. The medics could more easily be taken down by burst damage and all-in-all - I find this most fair. My mate is #1 Diamond Terran and he would absolutely love this change - I don't think this is a bad idea in any way, It feels convenient and I believe It's a tweek required or atleast to be considered. Atleast I believe that's where to start. I have a few opinions myself - increasing the tech cost of Concussive Shots is one of them - right now It's basically a "Here you go pal, little bit of slowin' shots for you" - everyone techs it, even if they get just 5 marauders in an entire game - It's incredibly cheap. I don't think any more than this is neccesarily required - often relatively big issues can be solved by seemingly small changes. Just to break it down.. I believe the effect of these 2 changes would be: - MMM is more easily countered by anti-infantry units such as High Templar, Colossus, and Baneling - Anti-Tier3 Protoss is for terran delayed slightly if going for a MMM build compared to now, so It's slightly less effective. - Convenience is given to Terran players, building Medics right out of the Barracks would feel very convenient, safe, and flexible. - The Marinedrops would be less effective due to the fact that if medivacs are removed and replaced by Transport Ships, earlier when 10 Marines was taken to the enemy base, there will now be 8 marines and 2 medics. - Zealots would be more effective against terran early early/mid game since Concussive Shots may not be teched, and if teched, It should be a choice for the Terran, not a free "let's click that because It improves this unit". Meh, that's just my cup of tea :->
You don't need T2 to counter MM from terran. Just need zealots and sentries. And Blizzard has been balancing the game all throughout beta (about 4 months), and they have the statistics to prove that the winrate of terran is actually 49%.
RushSecond: In Bronze/Silver it might be even, Terran might even be inferior for what I know, or Zerg might be bashing them - I have no idea. But as far as Gold/Platina/Diamond goes, I see almost every Protoss player geting smashed to the ground by simple M&M&M A-Leftclick. But I'm not going to make a fool out of myself, It is completely counterable no denying that - the key is positioning and timing just as much as units versus Terran ,since they are fairly weak while on the move. Nonetheless, the MMM strat gives WAY too much bang for the buck so to speak - way too huge reward for the actual skillrequirement of the strategy itself. Now this 49% shiet, are you sure about that? If you're including Korea etc. in those statistics - I'm fairly interested, but not all too much - the Metagame there is probably way different - but If you're not, or if there are similar win% here in Europe/America - I'm beaten, but I doubt It's mainly coming from Protoss beating MMM Bioballs
That 49% is coming from WhiteRa beating MMM every day, by blanket storming them and using feedback on the medivacs. And you can't say that MMM takes no skill when facing storm, it is damn hard to react fast enough to every single storm. What's even more fun as protoss, is to make sure your sentries stay alive the whole game, so that when you have high templar you can force field everywhere to trap the MM, wedge them in with chargelots, then storm them when they literally cannot move. Possibly the fastest way to kill an army, now that the vortex + force field glitch doesn't work anymore.
RushSecond. Compare "Forcefield in the entire army by using mad precision & spamclick consecutively while landing a perfect storm" and "Run away from them storms like superfast" Yeah K. Yeah, MMM takes about no skill. Think about Zerg winning games by constantly harassing with Mutas, speedlings, and other kinds of units to keep their enemy at bay while at the same time macroing and expanding. MMM is NOTHING compared to this, nor is it nothing compared to the micro Protoss has to do. MMM is incredibly easy to go with, and has a very high reward for the simplicity of it. You can't say it's difficult because you have to run out from Storms.
Terran MMM players have about half a second to notice a storm, select the exact portion of their army in that storm, and click in a direction that is not also covered in storm. They have to do that every time the protoss player presses T and clicks on the MM ball. And they will still end up with their army half dead.
RushSecond: I think the real problem isn't how Terran deals with a Tier3+Upgrade counter and still wins by using the exact same units they've used all the game, but rather that it friggin works.
i personally feel all you need to do is drop the health points of maruaders by abit. that oughta fix many things. (and add abit more timing to their tech researches )
I thought i was the only one having trouble toss v MMM, what i've tried (laugh at it how you will) is to actually adapt the good old reaver drop from sc1 into a collosus drop in sc2. I get the speed upgrade to warp prism and kill off some workers at the expansion first if any, then the main (making sure i keep the collosus alive) whenever I want to expand (e.g right before or right when my first expansion is starting) so that they are wary and on the defensive, while giving me an advantage. I get a few more collosus, immortal and stalkers while having that prism collosus on a hotkey ready to use (always have it hidden but not too far from their base) to put up some pressure. If they get missile turrets then it's a bit of a problem, but i can still position an upgraded collosus out of reach of them often to snipe expansions or even the main, albeit a bit risky. Eventually i move in for the kill, and hope to god i can kill the MMM seeing as i should have more units (with the prism being a proxy pylon to warp in reinforcements). In platinum, but finding MMM the easiest thing terran win with and the hardest thing to counter
Rave: I don't do Colossus drops, actually I'm one of the many Toss players who almost never use Warp Prisms at all - ever. If I need to get my Zealots (or other Gateway units) to the enemy, I usually build a Pylon. Though Warp Prisms can be very useful at times. I find other ways to count MMM - now winning almost every game against MMM (not using the tactic I used in the original post) however I can imagine good Colossus harass to be very effective, provided you manage to keep the macro up. You don't really have to sacrifice much army size for the Warp Prism, and successful harass will reduce your opponents army by a formidable amount. Your strategy is uncommon (though not unused) and unpredictable, and if it works, then clearly viable. Good luck in the future :_)
