Protoss Unit Roster: A Review (with suggestions)

This is very similar to my thread on the Terrans. I forgot to note earlier that primarily my thoughts concern unit concepts and not balance. I think it's impossible for us to really discuss balance at the moment, seeing as we can't play the game. But Blizzard has released plenty of concept information... so let me repeat...

StarCraft 2 looks like it's going to be a terrific game. Overall, I'd have to say I'm very pleased with what we've seen from Blizzard so far. A few things looked like they could use some tweaking however, and since Blizzard has already demonstrated that they take fan feedback seriously, here goes...

Infantry:

Zealot: The iconic foot soldier makes his return. The base concept of the Protoss is about superiority. They don't adapt very well, and they don't often see the need for change. With that said, it's good to see that the Zealot gains the Charge ability. It doesn't represent a change, just harder training of the mind and body. With the shame felt from their loss of Aiur, it is sure that every Zealot has a burning desire to serve his people better than he ever has before.

Dark Templar: The new model is great. Just like the Zealots are pushing their abilities more than ever; so too the Dark Templar keenly feel the loss of Aiur. They must train harder, fight better, kill more. As such, it is time to recognize that the era of skulking about in darkness, acting as shadowy protectors, is not enough to counter the threats the Protoss race faces. A stealthy strike here and there is not enough when war is upon their doorsteps. And thus, while stealth need not be completely abandoned, every Dark Templar sees the need to be ready to join the fight at the front lines if necessary.

Perhaps to also demonstrate the Dark Templars greater concentration it might be nice to see them gain a new ability as well. Remy suggests a 'Phase' ability. When this ability was activated, Dark Templar would be able to move through other units without colliding for a short period of time. This ability would parallel the Zealots gain of Charge quite nicely. Perhaps similar to that, the Dark Templar 'Phase' would have a lengthy cooldown and a short duration. This ability could prove very useful however, as it would allow Dark Templar to move quickly towards the rear ranks of enemy armies, where the more vulnerable units were. It would also help the Dark Templar to avoid clumps of enemies, purposefully used for clutter.

High Templar: Following straight in line with the previous small changes, the High Templar too becomes more focused on direct action. Forcefields and Psionic Storms... directly applicable defensive and offensive strategies. No more trickery and subterfuge... it's time to smash other species with the might of the Protoss and take back what's theirs.

Twilight Archon: Great idea. It is good to represent the turmoil within the Protoss as they simultaneously stay separate and join. Units like the Stalker and the Immortal show that they are far from being one people again. While on the other hand this unit shows that some among them are attempting to follow the example of Tassadar. We don't know everything these units can do yet, but the combination of Khala and Void energies should result in immense power. I sincerely hope they have an additional, new ability beyond only Feedback. Maybe similar to the video in the first game, they could have some manner of attack that does immense damage to biologicals in a beam respective to the Archons current shields. At maximum shields, the attack would have a long area of effect. While low level shields may result in only a beam the length of a Firebats range say... After the attack the Archon would have no shields left, and should have very low health like the originals, making a quick counterattack fatal against them. But a timely, "Psionic Disjunction" should be quite deadly.

Finally, I really hate the idea of two High Templar OR two Dark Templar forming a Twilight Archon. Twilight Archons are about combining the two disciplines. You can't do that with students of only one school of thought. Twilight Archons should be one High Templar and one Dark Templar only. If you want to explain why regular Archons and Dark Archons aren't still around just make the impact of Tassadar really felt. Tassadar is thought by many Protoss to be like Adun or Khas, almost a demi-god. His example has completely changed the way the Templar castes think. While they aren't all completely ready to follow in his path just yet, they do see the need to repair the breach in their species. Thus, with High Templar dabbling in Void energies and Dark Templar reexamining the Khala, neither possesses the purity of singular energies necessary to complete the highly complex merging processes.

Mechanized Infantry:

Stalker: Cool new unit. Both branches of the Protoss are learning from each other. And this is a nice complement to the Immortal. No complaints.

Recently, I had an idea for a possible Stalker upgrade which seemed to meet with a mostly positive response. It would be interesting to see the Stalkers able to get a "Void Flux" upgrade. Players would have a toggle to tell the Stalkers when to begin attempting to cloak, and after the initial order the Stalkers would individually cloak between 1-5 seconds later. Afterwards the Stalkers would blink in and out of cloak at a set rate, such as perhaps 4 seconds cloaked followed by 6 seconds uncloaked. This would represent the Dark Templar struggling to control the waves of light around such a large area. So this concept would not give the Stalker sneak capability. But it would confuse and make it difficult for an enemy to judge how large a strike-force of Stalkers was. It might also make it harder for enemy units to target individual Stalkers thus equipped.

It might further be interesting to see this as a per unit upgrade to balance it's effectiveness and also for the sheer beauty of a large group of Stalkers irregularly phasing in and out of cloak.

Immortal: Good progression in line with the story. The shielding technique feels a little strange. I'm not really sure how to make it better though. For the most part I like this unit too however.

Bird of Prey made a nice suggestion for the odd sounding shield. Instead of decreasing all heavy attacks to an arbitrary number, why not use a percentage? So instead of all attacks doing at most 10 damage, let's say Immortals take up to the first 10 points of damage from any attack, and a mere 20% of any damage dealt over that amount. This allows for a much more reasonable mechanic, considering that currently it appears that Cobras and Nukes would do the same damage. This concept would still make the Immortals quite sturdy however - ie: a Cobra would do 15 damage and a Nuke would do 108 damage. A squad of Immortals could thus potentially survive THREE nuclear attacks, clearly earning their name - while maintaining a sensible unit model.

Colossus: Seeing as the Protoss are the stereotypical intelligent alien, it fits to give them a unit that is commonly seen in popular culture with advanced alien species.

Support Units:

Observer: (EDITED AFTER MUCH INPUT) A staple of the Protoss forces, pretty unremarkable in detail but very important in the first game. I think a bit of an adjustment is in order. The point of the Observer is to scout while remaining unseen right? Well, since we're dealing with the whole mix of Light vs. Dark units mechanism, I don't see why the reunited Protoss wouldn't put at least some of the responsibility for stealthy scouting in the hands of those who have been doing it quite successfully for centuries.

Enter the: Haunt. Similar to the Observer, the Haunt is a small, flying robot. Being comprised mainly of Void energies the Haunt is almost non-existent and does not register on any normally detectable energy waves. Extremely low hit points, but high shields. Unlike the Observer however, the Haunt would have a short sight range and be able to recreate fog of war in a medium sized circular area. (not the dark black fog, just the fog that occurs in areas you've previously explored but haven't occupied recently) Enemy units caught in this area would be temporarily blinded for the duration of the ability. This would be done as a casted ability which takes it's energy from the Haunts shields. The Haunt could cast 'Void Mist' with any amount of shields left, however if the cast would take the Haunt below 0 shields, then its meager health would be drained for the remainder. If there was not enough health to cover the cost either then the cast would still function, just the Haunt would perish afterwards. The Haunt would start off relatively slow, but have a researchable speed upgrade.

Phase Prism: Wow. Now this is just awesome. Go Blizzard.

Stasis Orb: Ehh. Haven't heard much about this unit. Doesn't seem to be much to say either. Without hearing more, I'd have to say I think they could find something better to use a unit slot on than this...

Air Forces:

Phoenix: (EDITED AFTER MUCH INPUT) I don't like it. It isn't Protoss. Protoss build to be superior, they are the most advanced known race in the galaxy. They do not use gimmicks. Their anti-air fighter should use a Protoss themed technology, not 'overloading the guns for temporary firepower at the cost of engine failure'. That's a Terran concept. When the Terrans are faced with a problem, they might jury-rig a solution. The Protoss would brute force it. Swarms of Zerg? Terrans might say lets overload the guns. Protoss would say just build a dedicated bug blaster.

A different form of Phoenix attack is necessary. The name, model, etc all look sweet. The attack method just doesn't fit Protoss concepts. Perhaps the Phoenix should send out waves of energy similar to the Psionic Storm... 'Psionic Wave' if you will. While not as powerful as the High Templar ability, it still does respectable damage over a short period of time, and targets up to 12 supply points of aerial enemies within range. Thus, the Phoenix would remain most useful against smaller swarms of enemies, and marginally helpful against larger targets.

Warp Ray: I like this unit. Another example of the Protoss assimilating. The weapon mechanism is cool. Good design.

Carrier: (EDITED AFTER MUCH INPUT) Believe it or not, I think the Carrier should go. The Carrier was the Light Protoss command ship. With the Protoss relying on the Dark Templar for their homes, it doesn't fit that all the top muckedy mucks would still be High Templar. And so I propose a new command ship, called the "Void Drifter"...

which however meets with little enthusiasm... so I guess Carriers stay. =P (I secretly still want them gone however.)

Mothership: (EDITED AFTER MUCH INPUT) The most debated unit it seems. The Mothership is very cool and a nice concept, especially as it was originally shown. It just doesn't make sense to build multiple Motherships however. The nature of mothers is that you only have one. Secondly, with a name like that - it needs to be immensely powerful. Which leaves us with two potential options as I see it.

First, go back to the super-unit classification with only one Mothership per Protoss player. This Mothership should have extremely powerful hitpoints, shields, and a larger than normal energy reservoir. It should function as a decent attacker against both air and ground, with one powerful attacking ability and multiple powerful defensive and/or tactical abilities. Without it's abilities it should have the relative attacking power of let's say a Warp Ray and a Phoenix together.

(will update with potential suggestions for abilities)

The second option is to say the Motherships received their name from the primitive species the Protoss would watch over. These species upon looking up and seeing a large ship hovering in orbit, would not know that their were many such ships and a much larger galaxy out there. This form of Mothership would not need to be limited to one per Protoss player, but while still needing strong hitpoints and shields, and perhaps a large energy reservoir, it would not function as an air attacker and have only nominal ground firepower. It would have a variety of useful defensive and/or tactical abilities of average power. Without it's abilities it should have the relative attacking power of let's say two Mutalisk.

(will update with potential suggestions for abilities)

---------------------
There's my thoughts... be glad to hear other ideas too. I'll update this as we get more information, I get new ideas, etc...


Bonus 1000 minerals for a well organized and well thought out post with many interesting ideas.

 

finished initial posting... whew... *sleep time*

 

you rock man, and as promised, owerup:

however, i disagree with many of you points:

DT - I actually liked the older model but i do appreciate your reasoning

Temp - I am REALLY going to miss hallucination; it's just one of those spells that was actually cool. I mean, if i were a weak templar, i'd totally manipulate the enemy's mind to compensate for my low hp/shield. i guess force field is OKAY, but just not as cool

Archon - I like the psionic dysjunction ablity, but it should in no way compare to the power of the nuke. i'm neutral on the whole 'temp+temp / dt+dt / temp+dt'. i have yet to see a good idea to break up that little templar orgy

Haunt - it sort of reminds me of a longer lasting comsat sweep. i love the 'sensor-array- detection idea but i hate the fact that enemy units can't detect it. too Imba IMO -- screw it, just keep observer

Phoenix - Contrary to your opinion, i have come to love the phoenix and its abilities. i only have a problem with it's unit design. i like the "V" shape (hope you know what i mean) but it seems to wimpy (thin??). upgrade the design and i'll be good.

Carrier - I think it should stay. although now it seems like its primary role would be to serve as a distraction from enemy anti-air advances, thereby protecting the real threats -- the warp rays and the motherships

Mothership - Yes it seems very un-starcraft-like, but its abilities (cloak, time bomb, and planet cracker) outweigh any criticism towards it


*EDIT: i'll do it in 72 hrs, forum rules

 

i agree with you that the phoenix overload doesn't suit the protoss, it really does feel like a terran solution

 

in response to ^ : The protoss just lost Aiur. I think they need some new tactics...

 

I agree on most of your points and im glad someone did a good recent full evaluation of the protoss units.

While i do agree with your opinion of the phoenix im not sure if i would agree to the solution. Your osprey idea (that name btw is a definite terran name i think it is even a U.S. assult plane but i could be wrong) just doesnt seem like it work very well because it would be either really overpowered or it would be insanely weak because it would be really easy to micro and avoid it.  In my opinion instead of the overload ability the phoenix should get some kind of bonus when you have multiple phoenix attackting the same target or the phoenix should be given an option ability (kinda like how the predator changes forms) and 1 version should give its primary attack a small splash radius and the other version should apply an affect like acid spore (slowing ship and attack speed instead of doing extra damage) and you call it ion blasts.

Now for the carrier i just flatly dissagree the carrier is an iconic protoss unit like the zealot. The only thing that should be done to it is give it some kind of new ability to make it fresh again. (like how they gave zealots charge)

Lastly for the Mothership im not gonna restate my reasons for my opinions im just gonna say the Mothership should be a "super-unit" similar to its WWI build and it should be used multiplayer.

 

Well, maybe I went a bit overboard there... but it should rock. The few examples we've seen of Void + Khala energies combining were overwhelmingly powerful.

well not be able to be detected is a huge bonus, but not being able to move it is a huge penalty too. Maybe an added detriment? Like, seeing in my concept the vessel practically doesn't exist - give it an energy bar which is slowly running down - and when the energy bar runs out, the unit winks out of existence... hmm?

They definantly do. But here's the thing about Protoss... they don't change. Just think about the original campaign, I don't know about you but the Protoss high command was incredibly frustrating to me. It wasn't until both the Zerg overran their planet AND Tassadar sacrificed himself that some of them began to even consider something that was blatantly their only hope of survival, namely not being hostile to their Dark brethren. That's just a Protoss trait. Terrans are all about ingenuity and adapting. Zerg are all about the Swarm, and the Protoss - they're all about arrogance. A Protoss knows he is superior until the day he dies... and then if he gets brought back in a robotic shell, he still thinks he's superior. lol

Very true about the name... I blame lack of sleep =]

As to the Protoss anti-air unit concept. I think the opposite idea from what you just said is what is needed. The unit, whatever it is, needs to be more useful the more it is outnumbered. The Protoss after all should always be outnumbered. That's why I like the idea of some kind of field surrounding the ship. The more attackers, the more damage the ship is doing. Doesn't have to be Gravity Pulse, or whatever I came up with... just something that makes swarming that particular unit a really, really bad idea.

I think the Carrier should make it's reappeance in the expansion... provided the Protoss don't suffer any more setbacks in the course of the campaign. But right now... I think the Dark Templar should be taking the lead. I think individual Carriers should appear in the campaign, but the Protoss have changed the most of the three races, I think their troop lineup should reflect that.

As far as the Mothership, I just had another idea earlier to give some possible backstory. It could be as simple as saying that the name for the Mothership did not come from the Protoss themselves, but rather from the races that they watched over. These primitive beings, upon seeing one of the massive vessals hovering in the sky would not know that there was in fact a huge galaxy out there with many more such vessals... thus, the name. The unit would then have a number of nurturing and support abilities, instead of massive destructive capabilities.

 

Another great post! owerup:

 

i agree that twilight archon should be very powerful, and it should be formed from a high templar and a dark templar only, and not from 2 ht's or 2 dt's.

in addition, i think the merging process should require a special building as psi and void energies can't merge naturally. what you do is put a ht and a dt into the special building like marine into bunkers, then you press a button and the merging process begins, the process should be slower than normal archon merge and also cost resources, but the resulting twilight archon would be a lot more powerful than normal archon, and also has powerful spells.

 

While i agree with alot of the ideas surrounding the Twilight Archon I think i can understand blizzards reasoning behind it. If you keep making more specific requirements just to make one unit either the unit is never going to be used or they are going to have make the unit more powerful than it already is.

As for NateSMZ respones to my posts. First i agree with your opinions about the phoenix i just didint like your solution and now thinking about it i dont think my solution was alot better. So how about a unit (call it the "Protoss Frigate" to follow blizzards obvious naming coneventions for the protoss) that can fire at multiple targets but can also focus fire on a single target and have all of its attacks do splash dmage (probaly a small amount of dmagae in general though 4-5 with an average attack speed or slower) and give the unit a "hardened" and a "weakened" ground shield. (instead of no ground shield which i think is a bad idea for any protoss unit)

In my opinion if your just gonna put the carrier back in anyways why not put it in now? its not like the protoss have forgotten how to build them.

As for your Mothership idea, while i think it is interesting the Mothership really needs to be a super unit. In SC1 the Protoss never really had a unit "without equal" (im not saying without counter) and they should have had one they the most technologiclly adavnced, most powerful psionicly, and most powerful while having a very small number of units. The most powerful protoss unit in SC1 (the carrier) could beaten (somewhat easily in fact) in any kind of equal fight with the only other capital ship in the game. In my opinion the Mothership is a chance to give the Protoss that unit they never had in SC1 with unequaled strength. (again im not saying without counter)

 

I think the general concept of the Mothership is fine. She's big, she's powerful, and she had great abilties.

But then they went and dumbed her down. I mean, it's not like she doesn't have weaknesses. She doesn't attack air, for Christ's sake. That's a pretty big glaring weakness to me.

I've heard it said that this doesn't make sense that it doesn't attack air, but if you think about it, that would fit in perfectly with the theme of the Protoss. It would also leave the Carrier with an all-around capital ship niche to fit nicely into.

I think you'll all see my personal opinion regarding the Mothership soon enough.

 

Didn't you just describe your opinion?

anywhoo, is the "dumbed down" version of the MS able to attack air now?

 

Nope

I have given most of my opinons in other threads so I will refrain from posting them here.

 

This i can agree with you completely. Protoss = Less, but stronger units

I think that's what blizzard was trying to do with the overload ability; a way to counter swarms of enemy units and very effective against zerg air

wth? BirdofPrey=Joneagle_X?

i'm confused, i thought i was talking to Joneagle_X??

 

I don't think birdofprey is joneagle by any chance and iff You we're talking to joneagle then birdofprey was trying to help as well sorry iff You feel like he's intruded but he is a nice guy!

 

Nice compilation. I agree with most of what you are saying and have posted on other thread so I am not going to repeat myself here especially my feeling about the MS and the Carrier. However, I do have some misgivings about some of your solutions.

First is the detector Haunt. It would be too overpowered or useless. First of all, anything that's uncounterable (it cannot be dectected is uncounterable because it can't be kill at that moment) is not Starcraft. You did say that it does have a slight window of appearing but it the player it not looking or is distacted in battle, they will never be able to find this observer which in my mind is way too cheap. But the big problem I have with this is the lack of moment at all. If you are fighting a battle against cloak units, how are you able to get a detector there besides cannons. You can say well you teleported one there earlier but battles are at different places and you cannot predict this. So basically Protoss will not have a movable detector which means that most cloak units can punish the Protoss at anytime. This is not a good idea.

The other solution is the Osprey...well someone mentioned that the name is not Protoss sounding and I agree, but the attack seems awfully hard to pull of. How are these units to be "toss" or "pull" down? Do they keep attacking the Osprey when being pull down and how is the animation to work for such an attack? From your description it sounds like a one shot death blow if you get hit by the Osprey. I would not want my BCs or Carrier to die in the same amount of time as some small fighter like a mutalisk.

As to the Void Drifter, the losing life points sound so much like an irradiate of a science vessel while the ramming ability with the those warp blades are too zergy. In fact this is how an ultralisk attack.

Good description on the units though

 

The haunt that he described is not necessarily a "detector" in the traditional sense.

It doesn't "see" terrain or reveal fog of war or units.

It simply lets you know when enemy units are THERE. It's the exact same idea as with the Terran Radar Dome. It doesn't let you "see" what type of unit it is, but it lets you see red dots of where enemy troops are.

 

Yeah but that's my point even if you "know" they are there you don't necessarily "see" them if I understand of what I've seen of the sensor dome. How is that going to help you against cloak units? You still get slaughter by any cloak unit and have to rely on cannons for detection? That would be death to the Protoss.

 

It won't help you against cloaked units, but it offers different abilities than the Observer. This unit would NOT be a replacement for the Observer.

It would simply be a supplement and offer a new mechanic for the gameplay. You would still need to build observers for scouting and to counter cloaked units.

 

Lemme check


Nope
---
Only thing I really like here is the ship that creates a fog of war and rams things. The haunt that is indestructable seams kinda cheap while the ine that throws things into the ground just seems wierd. I would rather have the corsair back becauseodf the desruption web. Besides the Protoss only have one fighter so a second would be nice