Protoss Shield Omnidiscussion.

We have seen a overhaul on both the shield and damage systems in SC2 from SC1 so I feel it necessary to hold a serious discussion regarding the shields covering all aspects at once so we can submit those thoughts to Blizzard.
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First we know that in SC1 damage types were subtractive. They did a certain amount base damage but different size units gained a damage decrease based on size. The shields however took full damage regardless of unit size.

Now the damage is additive. Each unit does a base damage then gets a bonus against certain types of units. What is not known though is if the shields will take only base damage or if size will be factored into shield damage causing bonuses to be applied to the shield as well as the armor.

I would like all of you to discuss the merits and demerits of either option and come to a decision of what you think will be better.
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Another change that has been made is the shield recharge.

In SC1 the shields recharged at a constant rate but this was very low however it regenerated in combat and could be done quickly with a shield battery.

From what we know SC2 shields will recharge very quickly but there will be a delay between the last time damage was sustained and when the shields begin to recharge leaving a vulnerability there. Also the battery is currently not in the game so there will be no ways to rapidly replenish the shields.

Please discuss if you think the new system will be better or worse than the original system and what the optimum recharge rate and if we keep the new system what the optimal delay is.

Also discuss the effects of the current lack of recharge expediting mechanisms and if we can survive without them or if they are needed. If needed what form will it take. Will it be in a structure or unit and will it be some kind of passive recharge boost from an aura type device or a direct shield/ energy-to-shields mechanism similar to the battery.

Also discuss the possibility of upgrades to increase Regen rate or to listen the time between damage and the start of recharge or possible elimination of the gap.
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One more item for discussion is shield level upgrades. In the original game all structures and units had a base shield of zero meaning shields took full damage but there were 3 upgrades that allowed the shields to take up to 3 less damage.

Do you want it to remain that way with the base shielding being 0 for all units or would you prefer if some units like Carriers or colossi had a higher level where they automatically take less damage when upgraded similar to how units had different armor levels in the original..
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A final item is that of the Immortal's hardened shield. As it stand the shield will reduce any damage above 10 down to 10 damage but there is some concerns about this possibly allowing the unit to shrug off a yamoto or nuke or other high powered ability.

Propose way to get around this problem.

Some current proposals are have abilities ignore the shields and for the shields to decrease damage by a percentage instead of a fixed number. (50% reduction means a 2000 dmg nuke does 1000 damage to the shields and a 70 dmg tank blast does 35 dmg)
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If you have any other questions concerns or sugestions feel free to include them

Thank you for your time and try to stay on topic because at the en of the month I will be compiling your thoughts to hopefully be included in the monthly submission to Blizzard.

 

All of the mechanics so far, being the fact that damage is now additive as opposed to subtractive, and the delay before quickly regenerating the whole shield, leads to the conclusion that Protoss will have a higher ratio of health to shields in StarCraft2. If a unit in StarCraft1 had 100 health and 100 shields, it is more likely that in StarCraft2 it will have 140 health and 60 shields, because the shields are more powerful.
All buildings, and units, no matter whether they are large or small should have the same strength shield and they should all be upgraded equally with the Protoss' shield upgrades. Every Protoss unit that has a shield uses the same invention as every other Protoss unit to generate it. It wouldn't make sense that a Carrier's shield is harder than a Zealots shield. The Immortal is different because it has an additional shield over the top of its normal shield.
With the Immortal's Hardened Shields it will only be effected by attacks, not abilities. Nuclear Launches and Yamato will do the same amount of damage as they would normally do because they are abilities. Think of it as though Spawn Broodling was in the game. Spawn Broodling instantly killed the target (meaning an infinite amount of damage) and created the two Broodlings. If this were to be used on an Immortal whose Hardened Shields reduced both attack and abilities to 10 damage, and because we all hopefully know that an infinite number is greater than 10, it would mean that the Immortal would take 10 damage and two Broodlings would be released. This simply does not make sense.

 

Agree with "additive" damage as it encourages more of an understanding of unit dynamics and their use by a player. Shield damage sustained should follow the same model, otherwise additive damage is effectively neutered as it would only work on protoss once damage reaches the health HP. With good micro by a protoss player this may not happen during skirmishes.

In SC2 it is important that the shield battery has been removed and that there is no replacement for it. If the new unlimited unit control function was combined with instant recharge the protoss could become too overpowered. Good micro could allow a protoss player to sweep the map with quick recharging and wave after wave of units. No instant recharge of Protoss units would provide a brake on Protoss expansion, requiring time for the Protoss to regroup. Admittedly it also reduces the effectiveness of units at base defence but many thought this was too overpowered in SC1.

The delay before shields start to recharge is vital otherwise good micro combined with the faster recharge rate will give the Protoss too much melee advantage. One way to offset this would be with counter upgrades for other races such as increased rate of fire for Terran or increased range for Zerg. This would counter shield recharge in battle but would still leave the Protoss with too much of an edge with hit and run skirmishing, where Protoss could nip in and out, recharge quickly, and repeat ad infinitum.

Keeping shield upgrades uniform across all Protoss units would make sense. Although a colossus would have a bigger shield the unit itself is bigger. More surface area on a shield could either be a weakness or a strength depending how the technology works, but I don't think one or the other should immediately follow. Bigger units with more health have more shield HP and I think this is a good balance that carries through to shield upgrades, as it technically makes the value of the upgrade last for longer during battle.

Immortal shields decreasing damage by a percentage would work fine but I'm not sure it's needed. Abilities such as Yamato Cannon or Nuke could be classed as chaos damage as in Warcraft 2, which would be coded as not possible to shield against.

My only concerns on the Protoss shields is on graphics. The shield graphic when under fire could be one of the most attractive visuals of the game but what's been shown in screenplays doesn't do the concept justice. It's a definite advancement over the original but it could be even better 8)

 

I agree with Nate about the additive damage. It is only logical for it to be that way because of Blizzard's ultimate goal of making a "competitive e-sport" and the guideline of giving good players more possibilities. It encourages a better understanding of the mechanics of the game and gives an advantage to players who do.

About the new shield system. As hexgor said, if the shields/hp ratio will be different as in less shield and more hp, then the system with a delay on when the shields start to regenerate, but with that being quicker, is fine. It probably even won't make such a big difference in most units because in a large scale battle you will rarely have a chance to move a shieldless zealot from the frontline, and even if you notice it he is likely to die before he moves out of harm's way. Also, in large scale battles, it is often not worth moving a zealot back, since you lose some precious seconds and your understanding/view of the battle "lowers" for a second or two (I don't know how to say it better, sorry, I hope you get the point). Not to mention that the zealots are toss's frontline and by moving them back when their shields are depleted (assuming that they have 140 hp and 60 shields) wastes 140 hp that could be spent soaking and dealing damage. That also allows more enemy units to attack your more expensive units that may also have a better damage potentail. No, I think that it will make a more significant change in units with more shields such as carriers or colossus, not to mention archons. Considering everything, I still think that they could put shield battery back in the game. It should be exactly like it was in the original, only more expensive.
Anyway, we will have to wait and see how it works in reality, but so far it feels good and I like it.

PS: I know my post is a bit messed up and hard to understand and I appologise, but I don't have the energy to rewrite it into a more understandable form.

 

The shields of the protoss should all be the same in holding back damage. They all use the same tech to generate it, so there is no reason for a shield to be more powerfull when an unit is bigger then another. That doesn't make sense.

On the other hand, a unit with a bigger power source, should be able to withstand more damage and/or regenerate at a faster rate. That's just plain logic. A nuclear reactor can provide more power then a Coal Plant, you know?

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As a counter to the faster regeneration rate the delay is just fine. For fast units the delay should be longer then for slow units. Why? Because fast units like the Zealot and Stalker are able to get away from a battle a lot faster. When they get away they should wait before they can recharge, because otherwise the would almost be invincible.
As an example I give you this: remember how fast the Zealot (upgraded) was compared to a regular Terran Marine or Firebat? They could easily outrun them. With this in mind, using some sort of a guerrilla tactic would almost always guaranty victory. This could be countered by giving fast (so mostly melee units like the Zealot and Dark Templar) a longer delay.

For the slower units almost the same applies: Protoss ranged units are pretty strong, but relatively slow compared to units like the Viking or Mutalisk. When they kill enemies and have to wait before recharging, there is just no time for them to recharge. They can't get away since enemy units will quickly catch up with them and therefore their shields would never recharge. So just give them a shorter delay.

Lorewise this would be easy to explain by just saying the Protoss realized that they would have certain advantages over the other units, like the speed thing I spoke of, and they optimized their shields for these situations.

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As for the missing Shield Batteries, why not create a unit that acts as a mobile regenerator. Something like the Phase Prism, with an equal range. It would have to deploy first and everything within range would recharge faster at a certain rate. I will start a separate topic about this later to discuss this idea.

Having absolutely NO replacement for the Shield Battery wouldn't make any sense. Why would the Protoss decide not to use their fast regeneration technology? That's just stupid. It's like inventing the a-bomb and not using it in a nuclear war...

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As for the upgrades... Well, not much to say about them. They were good in the original, so just keep it that way. If you would apply a percentage system instead of just a number, like a reducement of 3 damage per shot, the advantage would be to big. Like BirdofPrey already pointed out: a weapon like a nuke would be useless against high upgraded units.

The hardened shields should stay this way, but with a little difference. Spells and abilities should simply not activate the hardened shield. These are no normal attacks, and a shield designed to hold back normal attacks shouldn't even be able to stop abilities. A biological weapon like Plague in the original Starcraft wasn't stopped by Protoss shields either, it affected the regular hitpoints right away.

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So to conclude, keep the new way of shielding for the Protoss, but please look at the things I pointed out in this post. The same goes for the other posters here. There are some really usefull ideas, and without some of them the shielding as it is now just sucks. Kinda.

 

The zealots lost their leg whatisitcalled upgrade. Now they move at the same speed for the whole game, except when they charge, and I doubt that they can outrun many units. I don't agree with you on this, I think it should be the same delay for all units. And it's more logical that way, every protoss unit has the same shield technology, even immortals I think (they have 2 shields instead of one).

 

The Immortals don't really have two shields, their shields just has two functions.
But it's your opinion, I can't change it, but I really thinck it's a great idea to give them different delays.

I will wait a while before reacting again, I first want to see more reactions.

 

Patjulak the charge upgrade contains the old leg upgrade. Charge is a bonus on Top of th move speed increase.

 

Wow, really? Didn't know that, an awesome piece of information ;D ;D

 

I am a bit fuzzy on this, but I am fairly sure that Leg Enhancements and Charge are two separate researchable upgrades. If anyone can pull up some information solidifying it in either direction, that would be great.

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Fo®Saken: I don't thing the delay should be different for different units, it would add an unnecessary layer of complexity. I don't think Blizzard has any problem with hit-and-run tactics being a valid strategy. If it becomes overpowered, they can simply reduce the base shields on the unit, as IzahexGor suggested.

Also, let's try to stay away from using real-world logic to determine whether or not a particular mechanic is viable. It really should pertain to gameplay-only. Unless different-sized shield generators are actually being implemented, it does not help to try to justify or attack a mechanic from that angle.

I will now completely ignore that advice and counter your possible-explanation-based argument.

Large units do not necessarily have better shields, or better reactors for their size. Their reactors may produce more energy, but, since the unit is large, that energy is being spread out across a larger area. If reactor strength increases with the square of size and shield area increases with the square of size it would follow that a large and small unit would have exactly the same shield strength.

Is entirely possible that larger units might have weaker shields, or that they have to expend a greater proportion of their energy on shielding to reach the same strength, if even more realistic assumptions are made, using logarithmic or linear increases in energy with the generator, or cubic increases in energy requirements. So, it does not logically follow that larger units with larger (better) reactors will necessarily have better shields. I would assert that better shields are more of a function of energy available vs the area over which the energy is being expended. So, all else equal, if a reactor is large in proportion to a unit, then the unit might be expected to have better shields.

 

I know some of this might have already been said, but I will list out what my thoughts on these subjects are.

Additive versus Subtractive Damage

I like this change from the original Starcraft. It kind of bothered me, for instance, that the Firebat had an attack damage of 16, but most of the time would not actually do 16 damage. It's much easier for a player to know, OK, my unit will do x amount of damage at least, while doing better against certain units. The old way required much more calculating to actually figure out how much damage would be done by your units.

Also, as mentioned a few times already in this thread, shield damage should be even across the board. The same technology is powering the shield after all. As for the amount of damage - base damage is perfect. Damage bonuses shouldn't matter for the same reason - the shields are the same across the board.

Shield Recharge

I also am very in favor of the new shield recharge. It tweaks some basic Protoss strategies and makes sense. Shields would be taking hits in battle as the power needed for recharge is being expended in the form of attacks/weapons. After combat, the Protoss unit can concentrate on recharging shields alone. This means that a Protoss unit that is not finished off can come back into the heat of battle much quicker. As a result, new Protoss strategies can come about involving a quicker rotation of units, taking advantage of the faster recharge. At the same time, enemies will need to make doubly sure that a near-death Protoss is finished off.

The shield recharge rate is fine as is, and should commence probably about ten to fifteen seconds after a unit has exited combat. I don't see much change needed here.

I definitely think we can now survive a lack of shield-recharging unit. If a player needs shields recharged - retreat those units and they will be ready in no time. I know that a crucial strategy in the original Starcraft revolved around Shield Batteries, but I feel Starcraft 2 will encourage different strategies and perhaps better unit management.

Shield Level Upgrades

The logic that should apply here follows, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The way shield upgrades worked in the original was perfect. Lorewise, it makes sense, again due the the fact that the same technology is being applied for all Protoss units. Armor is the true variable based on unit size and toughness that all three races have.

Immortal's Hardened Shield

At this point, the Immortal's shield is definitely overpowered. I am slightly confused about how exactly the upgrade with the same title works, so here is my idea:

Towards the beginning of the game, the Immortal's shield works the same as everybody else's. However, at the cost of, say 200 minerals and 200 gas, a player can research 'Hardened Shield.' This would give the Immortal its ability.

The way I envision hardened shield working would be consistent with how Blizzard wants the Immortal to be a damage absorber, but weaker against small arms fire. So, for damage up to twenty, the Immortal should have no damage reduction other than the current Plasma Shield upgrade. However, for damage between 20-80, Hardened Shield will reduce the damage to ten. Damage that is higher than 80 will be halved. (These numbers could vary depending on what Blizzard is actually putting in the game and are just estimates)

This will make small arms fire normally effective against the Immortal, and counter units such as the Siege Tank, as Blizzard intended. However, things like a Nuke, Yamato Cannon, and fully upgraded Siege Mode attack will be simply too powerful for the Hardened Shield to fully reduce, so while most of the damage would be shrugged off, the Immortal will still take significant damage.

 

I actually think there should be different shield levels for various units. One is racial distinction, Terrans and Zerg are protected by armor but the 'tools are protected by their high power shields..

Obviously size would not be a factor in deciding shield level but unit value DO you want you 1000 mineral mothership to have the same level of protection as the lowly cannon fodder zealot?.

Also the fact that armor levels do not affect shields the damage decrease for Protoss units is in effect for on average only 2/3 of the total damage taken so Protoss units are actually effected by damage more. The archon takes an especially large hit since even with an armor upgrade the HP is a 2 digit number and with or without armor upgrades dies in 2 hits once the shields are gone.

Also upgraded shields could potentially be the greatest advantage but with focus put on the shields the armor will be thinner so after an EMP unshielded units will be more vulnerable.

 

I just thought of something else too - differing shield sizes ARE actually accounted for already. They are just reflected in the numerical values. For instance, the Protoss Zealot has 60 Shields, whereas the Carrier has 150, and the Archon has 350 (I am using Starcraft 1 numbers). Because of this, shield discrepancies that should exist have been addressed by Blizzard, so the Plasma Shield upgrades and base damage against them should definitely be the same across the board.

So, again for emphasis, in BirdofPrey's example, the 1000 mineral Mothership does not have the same shield level as a Zealot. I believe it's a ratio of three to one.

 

Double recharge takes the role of the Shield battery. This allows the Protoss to recharge their shields completely between fights even without a helping object/unit. That is quite convinient, before they had to retreat home, Terrans (still) need SCV/Medics and Zerg were forced to reproduce.

 

Additive vs. Subtractive

As everyone else has said, this is a great new feature. No complaints here.


Shield Recharge

I really like this new feature. It makes the shield feel like a, well a shield. In SCI the shield was basically a 2nd health bar, the one that could be healed. Now, it feels more like Halo or Super Smash Bros. where it blocks damage. however, if it breaks or runs out your screwed, but after a while it recharges and its back to doing it's job. I like this a lot more than the 2nd health bar.

This is really helpful for Stalkers seeing as the last time i checked they has 20 more hp, but 20 less shields than dragoons. now, they can blink out/ back of line and recharge. A truly skilled individual could calculate the amount of damage they take compared to how much they heal in 5 seconds, while blink recharges, and have an almost indestructible army.


As far as Yamato/ nuke, perhaps those can just destroy all the shields and disable recharge for a few seconds. You need to upgrade the hardened feature so its fine as is vs. regular units. However, those two are heavy blasts and would take a lot of energy to block.

 

Remember one thing though. Increasing the shield level does the samething as increasingarmor level. Decreases damage taken. If shield leve is increased armor level might be able to be decreased accordingly

 

Hmmm, perhaps shield level upgrades could give more shields instead of amour. I would like it if shields take base damage, that makes everything easier. However, if each level gives you like 5%? more shields, then it increases survivability, a lot, maybe too much actually.
It could be like a battery upgrade. Each unit gets a mini battery that lets the shield last longer under attacks, that is, if shields truly work that way.

 

I personally like the idea of additive over damage over subtractive damage. But I would have shields classified as something else so they don't take the additional damage. It doesn't make any sense for a shields to take additional damage based on what they are protecting the only thing that affect the damage done to shields is how reinforced they are. (AKA hardened shields and plasma armor)
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I am a firm believer that a mechanic can be balanced as long as the numbers are variable and the mechanic starts off reasonable. So I believe that same faith can be brought to bare here, as long as the numbers are balanced correctly with whether there is or isn't a shield battery I don't forsee any problems with he new Halo-esque shielding system.
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Now this is a topic where I tend to disagree with what has been posted so far. Different units should have different starting levels of plasma armor. Shields are a way of protecting a unit just like armor plating and how much damage they take from an attack should be based on how reinforced they are. Also balance wise if every unit has the same starting level of plasma armor then it makes units that are more dependent on their shields (AKA the twilight archon) far more vulnerable to quick weaker attacks than they should be.
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A percentage would make the Immortals hardened shield a lot weaker than it should be because it will still take a lot of damage from stronger attacks. (I am assuming a percentage around 50% maybe give or take 10%) What I think should happen is Immortals reduce every damaging effect (this includes abilities because if something is barely phased by an arctile shot then it should be able to withstand a big ass laser) over a certain number (was it 10 or 20?) down to certain number (10 currently) but the Immortal should have a cap on how much damage can be removed, with the current numbers I would suggest this cap be somewhere around 100.

 

Completely agree with Neon-10's statement about how larger units would not necessarily have a more powerful shield. Great post.
@Ninerman13's thoughts on the Hardened Shields. No, no, no, no, no! The Hardened Shield is not overpowered! Why does everyone say it is? Something that is weak against the weakest units in the game cannot be considered overpowered. It is really effective against powerful units, and really weak against weaker units, purely because they have a faster attack speed. Any unit with a fast attack speed, no matter how much damage they deal, will be effective against Immortals. They have an easy weakness to exploit so it isn't overpowered or imbalanced.
Also:

According to the Protoss lore, making the Immortals have to upgrade the Hardened Shields would make no sense. These are the last Immortals that they have, and quite possibly, that they will ever have. This means that the Protoss will protect them in every way possible. They will give all the Immortals this ability, meaning that they will all have them before they are warped in. There should not be a percentage thing to make them weaker against Siege Tanks. Yamato Cannon and Nuclear Launches are abilities so they won't trigger the Hardened Shields. The Immortal should always reduce the Siege Tank's damage to 10, instead of halving it. They are specially designed for taking on units with a slow attack and a lot of damage like the Siege Tank, so why should their attacks be halved instead of reduced to 10?

 

The assertion I made concerning the Hardened Shields being overpowered comes directly from Blizzard. At BlizzCon, people found the Immortals to be good against everything. So I was under the impression that even Blizzard found them a little overpowering, hence my suggestion. Let me know though if I misinterpreted something or if I am just wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I heard correctly.