Hey guys first time posting. Personally, I think the ground part of the protoss is pretty good (although I think they could do something with the warp in of the archon depending on what you use and I'm not to fond of the look of the dark templar ) but the biggest thing I see is their air force. Ideas: -Scrap the mothership and have it for single player only and add a muti functional unit thats both offensive and defensive ( give it its abilitys back but balanced as suited.) -The carrier. Let it have some interceptors, but add something else too, kind of a fusion of the dark and light thing to not only give it a reason to cost as much as it does but allow people to build like 1 or 2 without huge problems. An interceptor and maybe a attack of its own, who knows, raise the cost but give it more health and shields ect. 300-400 health and 300-400 shield seem fair to me compared to the battle cruiser and ultralisk which also have unique abilities. This especially is important in the gameplay that I can see they're trying to add with SC2. -Add the option of allowing the phoenix to morph between ATG or ATA with a short cooldown in between and take away that anti gravity seems a little crazy (also add the fact that they're either anti-armor or anti-infantry.) Just some ideas and suggestions. :wacko:
-scrap the mothership and have it for single player only and add a muti functional unit thats both offensive and defensive ( give it its abilitys back but balanced as suited ) I'm not sure what this would accomplish. Your asking for the MS to be moved to single player, but then add another unit in multiplayer with the same abilities? No point in doing that. -the carrier (it was the protoss capital ship in SC1 )let it have some interceptors but add something else too kind of a fusion of the dark and light thing to not only give it a reason to cost as much as it does but allow people to build like 1 or 2 without huge problems (interceptor and maybe a attack of its own who knows raise the cost but give it more health and shields ect. 300-400 health and 300-400 shieldseem fair to me compared to the battle cruiser and ultralisk which also have unique ability's about them) this especially is improtant in the gameplay that i can see there trying to add with SC2 They've already tried using escort units and the Tempest. Escorts were scrapped and the Tempest was changed back to the carrier. Not sure how the whole dark/light thing would work, as the Void Ray is currently the Dark Templar's air unit in the protoss race. Also, the Ultralisk has no special ability, it has only AoE and can now burrow. -add the option of allowing the phoenix to morph between ATG or ATA with a short cooldown in between and take away that anti gravity seems a little crazy (also add the fact that there either anti armor or anti infantry) That's what the Terran has. With anti-grav, the phoenix doesn't need to go between ground and air since it can force ground units and buildings to becoma air targets, while immoblizing the enemy unit.
The MS just seems like its costs too much for what it could be useful for ( at least i needs to be a more offensive) and in the game that there trying to make it just seems like it was a good idea at the time but i cant see how it runs effectively (or you could make it all offensive as they already have a good amount of casters) Personally i never really liked the whole interceptor bid (although it is a interesting concept) it just made the ship over and underpowered at the same time (its not really stand alone) and as for the ultralisk sweep plus allowing it to burrow along with being pretty powerful is where i was getting at with the abilities. I was stating this to make the carrier more of a capital ship along with proposing the idea that a cheaper unite with ability's be put into place (or you could shrink the mother ship ) OK how bout this just make the air attack for the phoenix stronger and more versatile and leave the anti-grav the way it is (that overload ability was kind of strong) :wacko:
I agree with the central impetus of the OP: 1. In multiplayer, it would make more sense to have an Arbiter/Star Relic type unit than the Mothership as the Aerial Caster. The Mothership in turn makes more sense as a single player unit, whereupon they no longer have to worry about balancing it, and give it back its planet cracker and black hole. 2. The Phoenix is ineffective at its role, and neither of its forms made much sense as a Protoss unit (a cheap fighter that kamikazes?). Bringing back a rebalanced Scout with a nifty ability would work much better. On the other hand, the Protoss having a unique super unit for multiplayer makes more sense than for the other races. As it stands, the Mothership is a decent unit, which has good toughness/DPS for its cost, on top of having spells that can completely invert the flow of battle.
Like i said before make the MS a single player only it was a good idea at the time but doesn't fit multiplayer as well, super units only really have a place in single player in my opinion. Also i said nothing about a smaller flier having the MS abilities there just needs to be something cheaper to replace or add something.(read below). Carrier stats (after comparison) minerals-350 gas-400 health-300 shield-400 Weapons: -- a total of 4 interceptors that already come pre loaded (it can make replacements when needed) -- 2 ATA and ATG (fires 2 attacks)plasma cannons that do a slow rate of 5 damage apiece (3 more the armor enemies) and the attack also maybe burns the enemy (a little unstackable dot)or does something else This would make it more like a capital ship Make some kind of ATA ATG unit that's both a support and a offensive striker but slow enough that it cant rush bases like the old scout as easily (like a stalker of the skies more or less but completely different in the terms of what it can do and also how strong it is), make the phoenix have only anti air, make the attack stronger, and make it faster (have either a boost or some other survivability ability) :wacko:
That is a major misunderstanding there, the Phoenix has no role of any kind of kamikaze, it has an ability called Anti-Gravity, its overload ability is scrapped and to be honest, the Phoenix is pretty much the Scout replacement and with a nifty ability that is much better than the scout, IMO the Phoenix is a nice support unit as a caster. And plus, i do not care what happens to the MS, but i am currently happy with the MS even as a multilayer unit since it is more of a base defense unit since it is slow yet with a powerful attack and the unit is another kind root to another strategy to choose from of being defensive, since Protoss is a bit of both defense and offense. And if the MS is now put into a singleplayer unit only, then i am not satisfied.
My point was that the Phoenix is a fragile unit that is cheaper and weaker than its Terran and Zerg counterparts. Its ability further emphasizes its expendability by disabling itself in order to disable another unit (true for both Overload AND Antigravity). The first ability was basically a kamikaze attack that was at least appropriate for the air superiority role, the new ability has nothing to do with air superiority at all. The Scout, in comparison, was more expensive and stronger than its Terran and Zerg counterparts. Actually, its attack is normal speed and powerful. Its pretty ridiculous I agree. I like the concept of a capital ship as a spellcaster, though it definitely needs to be a one of a kind unit to avoid overshadowing the carrier. Why change the Carrier? It works fine as it is. For its cost, it has good range, good damage against targets with low defense, and low durability. It can kill Hydralisks in 1 shot. Carrier: Effective against Light Air and All Ground Void Ray: Effective against Heavy Ground and Heavy Air Phoenix: Effective against Light Air and Heavy Air
Edit is you friend, many have said this, and i didn't meant the Mothership's attack speed is slow, i mean the movement speed is slow :>
The phoenix does pretty low damage; I don't think it's useful vs heavy air. It fires 2 attacks, each dealing 6 damage. That's reduced to 3 vs battlecruisers.
Who actually built scouts? If you needed air superiority against wraiths and mutas, it was better to use sairs, as they fire faster and have AoE. @Kimera, the phoenix isn't supposed to be used against heavy air, that was clarified when Sc2 was first introduced. That's the Void Ray's job.
Well, the thing I always say it to scrap the super units, meaning mothership, thor, and queen, and just replace them back with normal units. I really do not like the idea of the Mothership, people will probably just build as many as possible and use all their abilities to win the game, which I don't like as that takes no micro. Plus, the Mothership and Carrier's role overlap. I think we should only keep one, either the Carrier or the Mothership, not both. Blizzard has only kept the Mothership in and tried so hard to balance it because the fans think that the Mothership looks cool as opposed to thinking about the gameplay. Although the scout wasn't used very much in Starcraft 1, Blizzard could reduce the cost of it and also equally reduce the damage and hitpoints. I just think that the scout's ground attack should be stronger, and then the air attack weaker, so the two are almost equal. I also want Blizzard to give the Phoenix back the Overload ability, since Anti-Gravity doesn't seem to fit such a small ship, in my opinion. Since we would have the Phoenix with it's overload which can kill masses of air units, the scout will be a perfect supplement to the Phoenix with it's improved ground attack. As for the Corsair, it was an extremely good unit even though I never used it. It was an extremely good harassment unit, and it's attack speed combined with it's splash attack made it a very good air-to-air unit. However, with the Phoenix in Starcraft II, there would probably be no room for the Corsair. The Carrier, like I said earlier, only one of them should stay in the game. If it does stay, just maybe adding an ability or an extra upgrade, such as a ten interceptor capacity instead of the usual eight, would help close the gap between the air units in the Protoss arsenal.
The 'super units' aren't truely super units anymore. the queen basically is a normal zerg ability caster, just with better skills than the old queen had. You can make multiple queens, they have a normal attack, and aren't solo units, they die easily in combat like all other low tier zerg units. Thor is basically a strong goliath with AoE. MS's abilities have been nerfed to weaker ones, and its really slow, and can be killed by a dedicated anti-air army easily.
I really don't have a problem with the Thor or the queen they seem to work out fine. What this thread is about is the Protoss air force, as of now the carrier and the MS are killing each other and are way too expensive for what they are i say scrap the MS for single player like before. Make the carrier more versatile (interceptors and some other self added weapon or abilities) and add 2 (what ever they may be) smaller units personally 1 anti air and also a stronger but slower ATA and ATG dude.
The carriers are fine, as is and so is the MS (although im missing the black hole thingy soo awesome). i think they should bring the arbiter back, it was an excelant support unit with decent attack and decent abilities. MS should be able to be massed although at an increased cost per each after 1 is built. I think the scout was kinda weak, against ground a scout should do 10-12 dmg because its protoss? right? toss have more dmg/hp for more cost. The protoss are gonna get obliterated unless you have HT because massed multilisks are gonna rape almost everything. toss need the corsair back, it was pretty good against any massed unit (except the BC and carrier maeby) but still, it was DT tech and should be back in the SC2
Scout was just too expensive. It was worth the cost although people prefer to go other ways, especially when brood war introduced the corsair. I think the warp ray is a great counter to capital ships, the only weakness in air to air would be against massed air, which protoss counters very well with their ground units.
Where do you go to see the latest changes they keep adding a takeing stuff away i can't figure exacly what is in and what is out especially with the carrier. How fast and how often does the mother ship shoot? Maybe a speed boost is all it needs but personally right now it just dosen't seem balanced enough to be really useful for multiplayer. ( its abilitys and attacks could be better on a lighter ship with less health and cost) Personally for the cost they need to add some more shield to the carrier and mabey give it something else that dosent deal with the intercepters (give it a ground only wepon and reduce the amount of intercepters it has to like 4) or make it so the intercepters are alot smarter mabye add a thing where they absorb damage themselfs kind of like little blockers or lower the cost of the gas 400 is a little much i meen compair it the the cost of a immortal. Immortal 270 health 80 shield cost 175 minerals 75 gas 3 people Carrier 250 health 150 shield cost 200 minerals 400 gas 6 people Ya the carriers flying but with warp in that advatage isent really as huge as i used to be plus the carrier costs a total of 325 gas 25 minerals and 3 more people then the immoral plus the immortal has the hardened shield which makes it better in some cases when it comes to synergy, damage, and also survivability. (for 2 carriers i could practicly build for the cost 3 or 4 archons and 2 immorals) The collosus and the carrier seem to have the same problem and the same downfalls but the carrier in my opinion is flawed more then the collosus. Add 2 different kinds of smaller ships the phoxnix and a more expensive stonger but slower guy with some kind of interesting ability. I trust blizzard by time SC2 comes out im sure everything will be awsome they have never let me down yet and i dout they ever will. :wacko:
starcraft wiki is a good place to have a look through every now and then. The immortal has a very specific role while the carrier is multipurpose. Giving the carrier a weapon defeats the purpose of the unit in my opinion. I know a lot of fans wanted the carrier back when the tempest was introduced and i was one of them but as more and more units and mechanics are announced i'm starting to think the tempest is a better idea, having a base and ground killing carrier seems to solve a lot of the issues of the carrier such as the 'critical mass' point that has been raised. The problem with giving the carriers anything that would make them more effective in small groups is the power of the carrier rises exponentially. Anything that would help a seemingly weak carrier would just add to the power of a mass if you manage to mass them. i think the phoenix is fine, maybe it needs some splash damage but i don't think 2 new flyers is necessary.
I know that but cost wise (i was just useing the immortal as a example) the carrier just isent worth the price although i do agree with you on the tempest if they made that cost effective to run in bigger groups but not so overpowered that you could amass a army along with the intercepters and the strong ground shield then ya it would be very awsome possibly reducing the cost of the gas by like what 175 and minerals just a tad and giveing it a boost in mabey its health and shield a bit depending on what works for balance, it would take the place of that slower stronger attacker i was talking about. I liked the name tempest and it seemed like a cool idea although the little ninja blade thing was kind of rediculous. Make the phoenix just have a quicker attack and keep it ata although that anti gravity thing is a interesting concept it just dosent seem to fit the little striker that the phoenix is, personally the MS should have that ability and the phoenix should have some kind of short span life like some little attack ship breaks off after it dies or something else happens after it loses all its health.:wacko:
