new idea for Changling and its abilities

well so far i barely see the changling discusses much anywhere. its almost a forgotten unit and the game hasnt even been released yet :s so as i looked at what the changling could do then it became obvious that its just a scouting unit for the zerg. so with that said i can see alot of flaws in this new unit. its "transformation" being the main flaw...

first off, the changling can transform into any basic unit of a enemy base. if it goes near a zelot/gateway it transforms into a zealot, if it goes near a marine/barrack it transforms into a marine, goes near a hatchery/zerling it transfroms into a zergling. it seems that the changling can only transform into a basic unit and nothing higher then that or lower. so its potential and only transformations are into a zelot/marine/zergling. at first it sounds like a pretty good and creative/unique idea but that alone has flaws.

for example, the changling has to first get near a enemies base in order to trigger the transformation. that alone can prove challenging and the only way i can see that being pulled off is sneaking one in during the heat of battle honestly. if not then it will be obvious when they see a lone zealot/marine/zergkubg entering there base out of nowhere.

another thing is that during mid to late game most ppl wont have many of these basic units inside there base. and they will try to send them off into battle if they do notice that a few are in there base. once this happens then the enemy will know that a changling is in there base and pretty easily get rid of it before any real scouting is done. it also become obvious when a zealot/marine/ling is moving around in ur base without you telling it to do otherwise... like seriously it will be a good wtf moment when you see one of ur units moving on its own. its just to easy to check around ur base every few mins to see if there is a changling in your base and kill it off. its a simple matter of drag selecting your units IF there is any basic units in your base to begin with... just to easy to find a changling despite its elaborate "disguise"

another flaw is its limited lifespan to go on top of the plain obviousness/common sense factor flaws it has going for it... it also has next to no hp at all so even a probe/scv/drone can kill it off with relative ease.


so anyway with all that to accounted for i just dont see how useful a changling can be to the zerg player. so ima make a suggestion to change it into a more usefull scouting unit or even a DT like unit.

My suggestion: i would like to suggest turning the changling into a cloakable/uncloakable unit. the ability would be called "camouflage" similar to what geckos/lizards/octopusses do to blend into there surroundings and go unnoticed by predators or to ambush there prey. it doesnt require energy to cloak and you dont loose energy while cloaked. it cannot atk at all and has no atk spells or nothing like that. to make it simpler, it will be like a ground version of the observer for the zerg. you can even give it detection ability if needed.

2nd Suggestion: my 2nd suggestion is kinda of an offensive version to the first. basically keep the camouflage ability but give it an attack. it can have a base of 20 atk or so and its able to atk normaly while cloaked. it will also have a spell called "poison spine" or something like that that does 50 initial dmg to a target and is able to do 50 additional poison dmg to biological targets (machines are unaffected by the poison for obvious reasons). the target looses 1 hp per second over time untill 50 dmg has been delt.

anyway thats my suggestion for changing the changling lol. my idea mainly came from the "chimera" and the "reaper" from Resident evil 4 and resident evil 5 =p but thats only as far as the cloaking goes. so how is my suggestion? any suggestions that you guys may have of your own feel free to post them.

 

I never actually knew there was a changeling or any unit of the type, now that I think of it. Its exactly what the zerg need. I like your first suggestion, I think it should be an invisible unit that you could send out about after your lings and roaches and such, or before that, you scout and maybe even turn into some marines and harass. I especially like the detector part. I would love to have something like that. Good idea.

 

The changeling is spawned by the flying Overseer, so it's not all that difficult to drop it very close to the opponent's base.

The unit becomes allied to the opposing player, which means that it won't be auto-acquired as a target or show up as a different colored blip on your opponent's minimap. It's a fairly realistic notion that your opponent won't be scanning his base intently every second to the match, so you're likely to get some decent scouting in. It's also possible to hide the unit behind buildings, minerals, dodads, or whatever else to prevent him from noticing it when he sweeps by to produce more units or upgrade stuff. It doesn't seem all that bad, even if you only scout for 20 seconds, since it doesn't really cost you anything.

 

what oakwood said.

Man I'm lazy xD

 

well if it has to hide behind something and stay stationery your not really scouting now are u? it defeats the purpose if you have to stay in one spot in a enemy base. like for example, what if u do hid behind a mineral line or a building, and lets say for some reason the enemy is blind as hell to not notice it. what is the changling scouting? the enemy could be building all of his core tech in the front or in a place the changling is unable to see because he is "hiding" behind something. what if your hiding behind a gateway or something and your building up to defend a zelot rush, yet u didnt scout his stalker and DT tech. so now you are unprepared for a DT drop and you have the wrong units to defend against stalkers because u thought he was going to rush u with zealots.

i mean sure u can go out and scout around for like a few seconds untill the enemy kills you, but you could have did that with a drone if thats the case... it wont be long untill the enemy finds and kills the changling, and it is far far to easy to notice one in your base. and if your going against a zerg player, why not use use your peripheral vision to check and see if anything fishy is in ur base that shouldnt be there? its so damn easy that it isnt even funny. you dont even have to check ur base purposely to notice one... especially when ppl, including me, like to put there forces in a lone corner of there base or at the entrance to there base untill they are ready to go.

also, how will this work against terran when they block off the entrance to there base? obvously if they see a overseer in there base and the terran player is experienced enought they will check to see if a changling is there.

 

Eh, I still think the whole Changeling idea is gimmicky. I'd much rather have good ol' Parasite back in some form. Maybe even an upgraded version, where the Parasite matures into a Broodling after some duration, so it could possibly be used as first a scouting technique, then a minor harassment technique.

 

@what oak said, THE POINT IS You just need a few seconds in there, not long. I it could be like that you know?

 

Just scrap that idea and make it spawn "Scourge" that don't attack have around the same health and have have 4 times the speed they had in SC1. If you only need a few seconds that should give you way more then enought time until there killed. And think then that scout is at the cost of energy that regenerates and not minerals and gas that aren't as abundant.

 

Actually, I think the Changling, when dropped by the Overseer, transforms into the basic unit of whatever enemy it is close to, not an enemy building. This means you could create the Changling near a battle (when your opponent is clearly distracted), and then move the Changling towards the enemy base.

This is not true. With the Marine's shield upgrade, Zealot's charge, and Zergling's ridiculous speed these basic units will be used long into the game. Even in the original Starcraft, each race's basic unit had their uses throughout the game. Maybe most will be outside of the enemy's base, but the enemy will probably still be building a few replacements.

The limited lifespan is necessary for balance factors. And even though it has low HP, it is marked as a friendly on the mini-map. As a result, the enemy player has to 1) happen to see the Changling moving on-screen, 2) realize they did not order said movement, and 3) manually focus fire on it. By the time most players go through these motions, the Changling owner has garnered useful scouting data.

While this could potentially make sense lorewise, it is too similar to a ground-version of the Protoss Observer. Plus, the Zerg already have their moving-while-burrowed Infester, so they don't need another "cloaked" type unit. Just my opinion though.

Now a unit who is intended for stealthy, scouting purposes has an attack? This doesn't follow its role. At the same time, you were so worried about the enemy being able to easily find it - if the Changling had an attack, this would become even easier.

I personally like the Changling as is. Yes, it is a slightly weaker version of Parasite, but the mechanics involved make it much more active - a player needs to actually develop some skill to utilize the Changling at its full potential. Requiring energy and giving it a timed life counter the fact that it is hard to detect - realistically if the enemy is distracted they probably will not notice; even when they do notice the fact that they have to manually target the Changling will give a player a few seconds of scouting. I'm sure I do not need to explain the value of scouting in Starcraft II.

 

well my 2nd suggestions was just a added atk unit, not scouting unit. but i think i will stick with my first suggestion more sense the changeling is clearly a scouting unit for zerg. also, ya people will still be making basic units like zelots/marines/zerglings late game, but my point was they will not be in there base for long and sent out into the battle field as soon as possible. that means if a player notices a unit in there base they will send it out, and if that unit turns out to be a changling they will easily notice it.

as it is now, its just more practical to send a drone or overseer/lord for scouting then a changling if thats really what they want to use it for. i beleive that giving it a cloaking ability and even detection would serve the zerg alot better. having it change into something is just for show and as everyone says is way to gimmicky. and thats not a word i use often, but true is true...

also, even if the changling is produced during the heat of battle i seriously think it will just be to obvious when a unit is running away from that battle back into the base...

so basically what im saying is as the changling is now, which is a scouting unit, its just worthless. i know the importanced of scouting, but a drone/ling/overlord/overseer and even an infestor can get that job done. so if they will continue to keep the changling for that sole purpose then "change" it into something else... and i think a cloakable unit with detection and no atk is the most plausible for that. it will even solve the "overseer has to many uses" argument and also solve the zerg being "detectorific" problem. remove detection from the overseer and give it solely to a cloakable changling...

id much rather use a cheap disposable unit for detection/scouting rather then using something like a overlord/seer that also holds my supply and other things.

 

How is it more practical to send a Drone/Zergling/Overlord/Overseer?

Drone/Zergling/Overlord/Overseer
ADVANTAGES: Tougher. Can fly (Overlord and Overseer). Can more easily run away.
DISADVANTAGES: Cost supply. Automatically attacked by the enemy. Automatically seen by the enemy on the mini-map.

Changeling
ADVANTAGES: Costs energy, not supply and minerals. Has to be manually attacked. Has to be noticed by the enemy.
DISADVANTAGES: Requires some skill to deploy. Short life-span, weak.

The key point is that, unless the enemy notices you actually spawning the Changeling, you will get a lot more scouting time. Drones, Zerglings, etc. all are easily seen on the mini-map, the main screen, and are automatically attacked by the enemy. I don't see how you think that the Changeling as a scouting unit is worthless. It is the only Zerg unit that could theoretically remain undetected in an enemy base for a decent period of time!

 

an overseer apprently has a LARGE range of sight when its stationary. that means it can see alot of things in someones base without the enemy even noticing its there if positioned correctly. i even did this in sc1 when i upgraded the overlords sight range. i was basically able to see alot of what the enemy was doing for a pretty long time without them even noticing the overlord because it was out of sight range. and i THINK the overseers sight range is larger then what the overlords upgraded sight range was in sc1.

also, you can easily drop a drone or ling into someones base and immediately burrow it away from detection. and this can go unnoticed to. usually a player wont suspect a burrowed unit in there base, and even if they have detection if u burrowed it in the right spot the small whole still might go unnoticed.

also, we still dont know if its detectable or not. so a changlings "true" form might be revealed if detection is around (which, honestly, would make ALOT of sense...) so i wouldnt say its undectable just yet...

and lets say the changling is able to avoid detection from detector units like observers/cannons/turrets/etc. its still to easy to notice one. with the apm of some ppl that play this game its easy to drag select a unit to find if its a changling or not then send something in to atk it.

and it seems the main argument people are saying is that "your still getting some scouting in even if its a few seconds which is essential in SC!" well... again, im not saying scouting isnt important, im saying that if your going to scout only for a few seconds then u can do that with any unit u want! send in a drone micro it around a bit and send it out, theres ur few seconds of scouting. send a over lord in, fly it around a bit and fly it out. theres ur few seconds of scouting. unload a unit into someones base, burrow it untill its detected. theres ur few seconds (potentially minutes) of scouting. do you understand what im saying?

 

Yes you can park an Overseer outside of an enemy base, but to truly see the inner workings of that player you need to get a unit deep inside to see everything. Advantage - Changeling.

I'd say dropping a Drone or Zergling into an enemy base and immediately Burrowing it is even harder than dropping a Changeling - simply because your unit will automatically be attacked. Plus, a Burrowed unit loses mobility. Advantage - Changeling.

Blizzard has also said the only way for an enemy to get rid of a Changeling is to manually target it - this implies that detector units will not be able to see it. If a Changeling can be detected, I would probably change my opinion on the matter. However, assuming Changelings are not detectable by normal means (which is honestly probably 95% chance - think Hallucinations from the original Starcraft) - Advantage - Changeling.

Finally, even if we grant that your opponent is a pro player and has 150 APM, I guarantee that he/she would still notice a Drone, etc. a few seconds sooner than he/she would notice a Changeling; thus granting you a few extra seconds of scouting.

You phrase my argument as "You're still getting some scouting in even if it's a few seconds which is essential in Starcraft!" However, my argument reads "You're getting an extra few seconds of scouting than you would with any of the usual suspects."

 

ok forget my idea of scraping it. i personaly wouldnt use it that much but if there focusing on units and not base defence you could easily send an overseer in and spawn a couple and hide them behind there minerals and maybe if theres other sight blockers that could potentialy be in everyone base you could hide a few in those areas and get a bit of sctouting whats going and coming from the enemy base.

plus if they changed it to ANY unit that was targeted. you could make a ghost and posibly cloak it but it would waste its energy way faster. theres an idea if you want a cheap despoable scouting cloaked unit.
i guess you could just make it any infantry unit. so you dont have a rogue colossi sitting in your base and you going WTF!?!?!?!?! is there another computer? and why isnt it behing attacked?

this would especialy be fun to do to a completele noob. and maybe make the changling a unit that insta dies if its caught in any spell.

 

hold on, plz explain how seeing one unit running back to your base is easyer to spot then seeing a GREEN BOX compaired to all your blue boxes when you have your units selected in SC1? which is easyer to you? I see it this way you suggested a cloacked unit.... that gets negated as soon as 1 detector comes into play. example: Vs the average protoss player there gonna have atleast 1 cannon and unless the unit has a LONG sight range he wont be able to get close therefor his job that he is suppost to be doing cant be done. It soon becomes a useless unit and very few people will play with it. We seen this in SC1 already with atleast 1 unit in every race. The current changling gimmicky or not is Not only mobile but its very smart aslong as you can keep the enemy distracted. It having a short life gives you the chance under better conditions to see more then parasite could.

And just if you want to know my personal thought on it. The changling is better then parasite detected. The problem with parasite was you could only see that unit and where it was. you had no control over where it was. with the changeling so what if it gets found. Now the enemy is gonna have to sit and watch every single basic unit to make sure its not a fake. the real good thing about this is with mass unit selection parasite detected would be discovered way to easy. Changlings are running free and it can see things that may be hidden that parasite may never see because the unit its stuck on would never travle to that place that needs to be scouted. I would rather hace control over what i'm looking at then shooting at random hoping i get the right shot and some good intel on my enemy. I'm pro choice

 

the thing is, it will be a SINGLE green box running to ur base... dont u think it would be strange if that single green box is heading BACK towards the base when all of your other green boxes are heading FOWARD to the battle field? and again, people like to block off there bases to prevent scouting, so lets say a changling is spawned on the battlefield and lets say the green box or unit was not noticed heading back towards ur base. it approaches the entrance to your base which is blocked off by supply depots so theres no way to get in. and the more you try to get in the more obvious it would become that you are a changling. so there is no way in from the front since its blocked off. so that means you have to fly a overseer into the base and spawn a changling directly into the base....

now, since you HAVE to spawn the changling directly into the base by overseer that defeats the WHOLE purpose of even spawning the changling to begin with. why you ask? because first off, when you flew the overseer into the base you more then likely seen ALOT of whats inside the enemy base. enought to know what he is doing. so the need to spawn a changling in order to scout is very redundant since you did it with the overseer without even wanting to...

2nd, lets say you did spawn the changling in there anyway just for the hell of it. there will be troops all over the overseer trying to shoot it down. now i will admit that during the early stages of this games release ppl wont expect changlings in there base so they wont be looking for it. but as this game gets older and using changlings for some reason becomes popular then ppl will be looking for them left and right. and the first place someone will look once the overseer is gone is where the overseer was. more then likely it will hide in a group of marines/lots so that makes it easy to drag select and see who is a changling. all your troops will be highlighted except for the changling since you have no control over it. so it will be disposed of rather quickly.

i think it would be more plausible if the changling can change into a probe/drone/scv aswell and gather FAKE minerals for the enemy and bringing it to there nexus/cc or w/e. but even still, once that catches on it will still be easy for someon to drag select there gatherers by there gass or mineral line to see if a changeling is there.


the cloaking part i suggested does not have to be used SOLELY for scouting like the current changeling is. by removing detection from overseer and giving it to the cloakable changling would make it very useful for the zerg. you no longer have to risk sacrificing overseers just for detection because it does become aggrivating when a overseer/overlord dies because your trying to detect cloaked units and have to rebuild more because they hold your supply.


and i really do not think the changling is undetectable... im pretty sure that a cannon/turret or any detector unit can reveal its true form. and if not in this build them im almost certain that it will in the final release.

one other thing id like to add about parasite detected. you still had control over that unit. and u the only way to really know if u had a parasite or not is if you click on all of ur units to check and see if they read "parasite detected" under there name in there portrait... with the changling all u have to do is drag select and w/e unit is NOT highlighted thats a changling since u have no control over it... also, not many ppl notice that so you can actually start building with a parasited unit and u will know exactly what they are building. (believe it or not, not many ppl check the names or display of there units if at all... since alot of players Hotkey they just do 1+B+A+select guyser without checking the status of each individual unit)

since you have no control over a changling whatsoever its more easy to detect then a parasite because a player will find it strange that units are running around the place without a player commanding it to do so. and drag selecting only takes half a second... and like you said, since you can mass more units in sc2 that would make it easier to find a changling aswell as a parasite.

 

1) A single green box running towards your base is HARDER to notice than a single RED box. At the same time, only the Zerg player can see the Changeling's line of sight - so you wouldn't even see the green box until it was close to your other units. Plus, it's not like you are always looking at the minimap. IT IS MUCH EASIER TO MISS ONE GREEN BOX APPEARING BY YOUR OTHER BOXES THAN ONE RED BOX!!!!!

2) People do like to block off their bases... what does that have to do with this discussion really? A blocked base would be just as hard to get a Drone into as it would a Changeling.

3) Even if your opponent sees you spawn the Changeling, he or she still has to manually attack it. He/she can't just quickly do the attack command; they have to actually click your Changeling. This allows a few precious extra seconds than if you dropped a ground unit in there. Dropping a Changeling and ordering it to run at the enemy base will net you slightly more vision than just the Overseer would, too.

4) Your argument of Changeling use becoming popular = people looking for them = uselessness makes little sense. The same thing can happen with any mechanic, such as cloaking. Players will need to always vary their strategy, this is essential for Starcraft. In our case, a Zerg player should not always be looking to place Changelings.

5) The Changeling transforming into a Probe/Drone/SCV idea is not a bad one. No arguments from me here.

6) My main argument against Parasite is simply the fact that I'd like something different in Starcraft II.

Finally, and most importantly - the Changeling IS undetectable by detector units (I will see if I can't find a source later today, but I would bet on this!). Blizzard has said that the only way for a player to detect a Changeling is to drag-select or otherwise try to order their "basic unit" around. They also said that players would have to manually attack the Changeling to get rid of it. It is unneccessary for Blizzard to say these things if the unit is detectable by normal means. Hallucinations weren't detectable in the original Starcraft; Changelings will not be in Starcraft II.

That said, I am basing all of my arguments on that final point, so if it turns out the Changeling is detectable by Photon Cannons, etc. I will change my mind entirely, hahaha.

 

NOOO!!!!!!!

I was comparing The Old SC1 queens parasite detected compared to Changeling, here let me make it more clear

Parasite:
When you select the group of units the Parasited unit's box will be green. (easy to spot in SC2 sience you can grab ALL of your units at the same time now.

Changling:
You cant selece an enemy unit as far as i know in SC2 and even if you could it would make it that much harder to spot this unit because you have it under your selection so you wont think twice about why that one unit in the middle of all my other units isnt selected.

in sc 1 maybe this would be ok but the basics of the unit just fit better onto the field. Where parasite detected wont scout enough due to the fact its stuck to the unit that you dont contol Changeling is free to do with as you want. The fact that its life span is shot is what ever still and i presonaly think the issue of a blocked base just makes so sence what so ever. The overseer is a flying unit i dont know if the changling is shot by distance or spawned at the feet of the overseer but it should be hard to find a near empty spot in an enemys base and shoot/drop on in. Look at Battle report 2. there base was Fairly long. and much of it was unexposed. it wouldnt be hard to get a spy in...

 

Straight from Blizzard:

"... When he [The Changeling] gets near an enemy structure or unit he will change shape into the correct basic unit type and color to match that player... Enemy players cannot control the Changeling...He is just a shapeshifter...You can see that something is a Changeling by mousing over the unit, by trying (and failing) to drag select or by selecting the unit and seeing the name and portrait....It...Makes enemy players constantly fearful of all of their own units. Is THAT a Changeling?! What about THAT GUY!? In live games it is pretty difficult to keep on top of the “Changeling Problem” if an enemy Zerg player is trying to sneak into your base. However when you do catch them it feels pretty good...

Blizzard specifically says that you can see something is a Changeling by mousing over it. They also say that in live games it is hard to keep track of the "Changeling problem."

Now if the Changeling was detectable by normal means, why would they specifically talk about how to see which units are Changelings? And if the unit was useless, why would it be hard to keep track of them in live games?

While Blizzard hasn't directly said the Changeling is not detectable via normal means, it is pretty easily inferred from the above quote.

 

Perhaps the Changeling can become passively invisible as it detects an enemy within 12 hexes, and then after X seconds become visible as a Disguised Changeling?

So it is like this: Turn invisible for short time, reveal itself as disguised Marine, Zergling or Zealot.

However, the Changeling does have its advantages. On paper it looks REALLY obvious, but in an actual game you're not going to instantly notice the Changeling until it is too late, because the Changeling never triggers a warning or visually exposed by defenses and other units.


-Psi