I have made two overall propositions about starcraft. That the reason why the game fails to achieve balance particularly for zerg is because zerg is not truly unique from the other races when they should be, and because there is no integration of concepts between terran and protoss to properly establish the uniqueness of zerg in a balanced fashion. I've been doing research in an effort to try and figure out what type of thinking I've been doing, and I think I've discovered the answer. I typed in 3 on google, then clicked on 3 - Wikipedia, I scrolled own to Philosophy, and the last line states the following. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_(number) "Hegel's dialectic of Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis creates three-ness from two-ness" So then I clicked "Thesis + antithesis = Synthesis" and it brought me here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis And it states... "Although he never used the terms himself, the triad thesis, antithesis, synthesis is often used to describe the thought of German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel. The triad is usually described in the following way: The thesis is an intellectual proposition. The antithesis is simply the negation of the thesis, a reaction to the proposition. The synthesis solves the conflict between the thesis and antithesis by reconciling their common truths, and forming a new proposition. (Threeness from twoness) According to Walter Kaufman, although the triad is often [1] thought to form part of an analysis of historical and philosophical progress called the Hegelian dialectic, the assumption is erroneous. Hegel used this classification only once, and he attributed the terminology to Immanuel Kant. The terminology was largely developed earlier by the neo-Kantian Johann Gottlieb Fichte, also an advocate of the philosophy identified as German idealism. The triad is often said to have been extended and adopted by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, however, Marx referred to them in The Poverty of Philosophy as speaking Greek and "Wooden trichotomies"." I can use this philosophical model of threeness from twoness to critique starcraft 2. The Thesis would be substituted with the original starcraft. The anti-thesis would be substituted with warcraft 3. In the original starcraft we had 3 races that, on their most basic level, function the exact same way. Warcraft 3 on the other hand had 4 races that functioned all very uniquely from each other on the most basic level. If starcraft was to of truly evolved, it would have synthesized starcraft and warcraft 3 to create the 3rd principle, finding the common truth of both to create a game that was truly unique and a true evolution of the old starcraft. Following the concept of threeness from twoness again. Zerg should have acquired its uniqueness of function through a synthesis of protoss and terran, in which the concepts of the structures and the functions of protoss and terran would be combined in such a way that created a truly structurally and functionally unique 3rd race (Zerg), and by doing this, properly maintains balance. This is what I use to support the idea of overlords landing and not being able to lift, similar yet different from terran, being able to transform their creep in to a toxic creep for a continual cost of money, and the overlord, when landed, being a life source of the structures around it, similar yet different to protoss. As a final point, I compare this philosophy of threeness from twoness to quarks. At the following site, you can see the picture to the right. http://www.theimagineershome.com/blog/?p=1321 We see 2 up quarks and 1 down quark. Even though we see 3 colors, I still think that the down quark was merely the result of adding the two up quarks. The notion that Up + Up = Down. In a similar fashion I can compare this to starcraft where protoss' and terran's economy is Seperate from each other, while zerg's economy should be united with their warriors. That their economy is their warriors. In warcraft 3 the undead had the warriors that actually went out and mined resources. This concept should have been implemented to zerg, where the zergling was actually the miner, but because there are two, and are very small, mine half as many minerals. But this would make zerg truly different as they should be, as the pattern of starcraft is founded on "Two same, one Different" Overall, protoss and terran are the similar races, and zerg has to be truly different. It is a Unification theory, that warrior and economy have to be unified some how for the game to become balanced as a fractal of two similar one different as it always should have been.
I like that this is nice and thought out, but I'm not sure I agree with "But this would make zerg truly different as they should be, as the pattern of starcraft is founded on 'Two same, one Different;" And also "If starcraft was to of truly evolved, it would have synthesized starcraft and warcraft 3 to create the 3rd principle, finding the common truth of both to create a game that was truly unique and a true evolution of the old starcraft." the thing is, blizzard can do whatever they want. :| I see what you are getting at, but I just don't think it's necessary to change anything as when playing and seeing the different races it doesn't feel to me as if they are too similar. Maybe it's just me but I don't have a problem with it. Also some of the things you said would cause major balance issues to work out and as with anything of large magnitude it would cause lots of, err, "lolnub lern2play toss lik a real pro u zerg nub" or something like that. Hopefully you know what I mean when I say it could upset a balance and make say one race easier or harder or more or less appealing than another one. Again, maybe it's just me. Finally, one could get all down to the lore and this and that, but once again, Blizzard can still do whatever they want; it's their game.
Here is the reason why zerg need to be truly unique though. It comes down to the 3 factors. The fact that all drones are sacrificed, the fact that they share drone production with offensive production, and the fact that they also share this with their overlord production. It's how all of these things effect zerg when put together. What this reveals is that zerg was suppose to be capable of reacting at the very last second, and be able to push the opponent back. Lets say you are zerg and your opponent gets half or 3/4 acrossed the map with his army.... zerg should be capable of waiting until this point before switching over to offensive production... WHY? Because the later that zerg waits before switching over to offensive production, the more income zerg gets because they have been making drones until that last second before reacting. All the terran or protoss truly has to do is agress zerg, cause him to make offense, then simply go back to their base, and start the whole process over again, while maintaining a continual production of probes or scvs. If your opponent does this to you, his economy while grow, while yours will easily fall behind, and again, it's not just because zerg share offensive production with economic production... It's because zerg also sacrifice drones for buildings, as well as sharing their economy with lord production. All of these things when put together show that zerg is flawed, they are simply not unique enough. I've used this philosophical model to describe what the races strengths should be... Zerg - Reactive quantity (That zerg's strength is not numbers, but rather, the numbers they react with) This is basically why I proposed that all zerg offense be doubled per egg... 4 lings per egg, 2 roaches per egg, that everything per egg would be doubled, but for double the cost, which means, it would be in alignment with protoss costs. In fact, blizzard actually had an idea that involved 4 lings per egg, but they scrapped, they didn't realize that they were on to something. What this would do for zerg though, is give them the REACTIVE QUANTITY strength that they need. ]Example: Zerg would be able to now react at a later period of time with more units, and would have the minerals to do so because they would be getting more drones on to their minerals until the last second. Protoss' strength is Agressive Quality. Their shields regenerate faster then zerg's life, because of the punch they hit with and because they clump together, this makes their strength agressive quality. Terran's strength is position and ability... as they already start out with the natural ability to repair. Terran using the bunker offensively, (Position) is not cheese, it is a very real part of their agression and the scv has the ability to repair it. This means that terran's strength is positional ability. overview Zerg - Reactive Quantity Protoss - Agressive Quality Terran - Positional Ability.
Do you have any evidence behind your belief that zerg is so underpowered that doubling the number of units they get per larvae would somehow increase balance?
You know, I read these forums while I am at work, and get quite a kick out of reading your posts atlas. Its funny, you've somehow gotten it into your head that all of your points are logical and obvious, and you need to teach the masses to accept the truths that they so blatantly ignore. The problem (as I see it) is that you fail to grasp the meaning of logic in general. Your points are constructed using a logical approach I agree, however they are typically (ok always) based off a hypothesis of yours that you portray as fact (ex. Zerg are underpowered, your concepts of balance etc.) as such, the truth of the matter is that every single one of your arguments are castles built on sand. They have no foundation, and are nothing more then suppositions DISGUISED as fact. Your 3 "factors" are not facts, they are your "opinion" I guarantee that the vast majority of zerg players do not simply "react" to what the opponent does, they are not a "reactive" race, none of the races are, Blizzard did not set the races up so they HAVE to be played a certain way, that would be ridiculous. Anyway, I just felt like throwing my 2 cents into the fray, personally I think some of your ideas are interesting, I just think your ideas of how the races need to be played are close minded and incorrect. Zerg are already the most unique of the races, and I dont think anyone believes the games fully balanced yet, but its a work in progress.
How does doubling the units per larvae but doubling cost make That much of a difference. But in a perfectionists game like starcraft, a little bit goes a long way.
The only thing that is worth adressing in your response is the fact that you admit zerg IS different. Because of that, zerg has to be a race of extremes, with slightly greater agression when they are agressive, meaning, slightly more cheesy when cheesy.... And more power to their reaction, when they do react at the last second. The balance of starcraft is suppose to go back and forth.... Not meet in the middle in a continuous stream at the midway point with equality. Like we saw in that starcraft 2 balance demonstration where there was a continual stream of offense colliding with eath other but with the power never tipping on one sides favor. The reason why I do not acknowledge anything you write, is because you yourself do not know what you are talking about when it comes to the points I bring up. The fact is, You don't know... and that's truly all that matters.
Listen to what this guy has to say.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtUcojA4vvQ "I really do feel like the problems with the zerg are both in balance and design" at time 1:10 "This is a very long list that I have in my hand here, It pretty much covers almost EVERY SINGLE UNIT THAT ZERG HAS, that's just how bad that I really feel that it is.... you know, I'm gonna be honest guys, I've been a zerg player for 12 years, and I was not happy with them in starcraft 2." I'm doing a shout out to this guy... I've been playing zerg for 12 years as well man, I have hundreds of thousands of games under my belt.... It's true, zerg's entire design is completely and factually flawed.... The ignorance that is demonstrated by the starcraft community on these pathetic forums is madening.... seriously... I hope people will begin to see that much more of what I talk about is factual rather then not... One day dude, one day... people will see the truth. See, the reason why you have all these specific problems with pretty much EVERYTHING that zerg has, is because the design philosophy of starcraft is wrong. Starcraft 2 was suppose to 2-1 pattern fractal. If you move forward to time 11:55 in the video, this is what he says, and I quote... " A lot needs to be done to fix this problem, it's not just something that can be fixed in 2 minutes (even though I disagree with him there) "this is why blizzard has not responded to people, this is why blizzard is taking their time, because it is a MASSIVE problem right now with zerg, this is something that was, I dunno, maybe swept under the rug, would be the appropriate way to say it, SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE and it's pretty much in my opinion, all the things that I listed, and if I can go through a faction in a game, and pick apart 10... BASICALLY, every single unit that have and say that there is a problem.... there's a problem." My heart goes out to you man, if only you or the others knew.
Today is a new day and I deserve to be able to post a reply. The following video is a video response to the previous video, which I fixed and now works if you click on it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW7DoUjs5L4&feature=watch_response If you move forward to 2:12 in the video, he makes his point quite perfectly.
It has a huge affect on the time it takes to get units out. You wouldn't even be able to make a drone within the first second of a match. This would have a ripple effect on your whole economy. It would change the timing of every move you make. You have not, at any point in this thread (or in any of your posts elsewhere that I have had the displeasure of reading) gone so far as to even attempt to actually support any of your propositions. What is maddening is that you claim that what has been posted in this thread is factual when, in fact, it is merely opinion or, more often, simply incorrect. For example: How does this, at all, show that zerg is supposed to be capable of reacting at the very last second? How does it prove that zerg needs to be truly unique? If it were that simple there would be 0 zerg players in diamond. If all anyone had to do to beat zerg was force them to create offensive units then it would be impossible for them to win because according to you the only way for them to kill their opponent results in them losing. I would address the ridiculousness of the opening post but frankly the fact that your entire argument is based on information you obtained by googling 3 is not really worth the time it would take to type out anything further.
Well, it is my belief that zerg would still have the reaction problem, even if they used zerglings as a sort of mutational reference point. But perhaps there would be no need to make zerg reactive if the zergling issue was corrected. I think that if they corrected this, by having the zergling, because it is basically a premature version of what could be ANYTHING... Just like how pretty much all mammals look the same when they are developing... Be capable of mutating in to basically any unit, once the building for that unit was finished... To give the zergling the Value, that it is not providing for the zerg race. I think if that was corrected, then perhaps there would not be a need to give zerg the "Reactive Strength" That I'm talking about.
Why do they need to be more reactive? This isn't even a complete sentence or fully developed thought. It's like you started typing it then either forgot what was going to come after it or just realized that it wasn't going to make sense and just quit where you were. Yup. Then they would function just like larvae except they cost resources to make and take up supply. That sounds like a great idea. Zerglings provide plenty of value. Perhaps you don't know how to use them. They are very good in the early to mid game and still provide value late game depending on the situation. Zerg has plenty of ability to react to other players tactics. Here is one of i'm sure thousands of replays that demonstrates both the reactive ability of zerg and just some of the many uses of zerglings. It's also very funny though pretty long. Part 1 Part 2 Part 3
I'm not sure I'd really want my larva to have 35hp and 0 "light" armor, really. Imagine the harassment zerg would get off that, lol. Get 2 helions 1 reaper inside the zerg base, gameover.
