My last thread, Thanking everyone...

First off, I would like to thank everyone for bashing and criticizing my opinion which I used as a filter to find the truth that I was personally looking for.

I do think that I have been so wrapped up on trying to prove that zerg is the weaker race, when perhaps I should have been first proving that terran is stronger, before moving on to zerg.

Here are the facts,

Each race from the very start begins with a lump sum of life / shield that I show in the following values.

Zerg: 1250 + 200 + 40 + 40 + 40 + 40 = 1,630 total health

Protoss: 1500 + 40 + 40 + 40 + 40 = 1,680 health

Terran: 1500 + 60 + 60 + 60 + 60 = 1740 health

As a secondary point, terran also start with 10 food while zerg and protoss start with 9.

So, for starters, I would like this discussion to revolve around the theory for why the values begin this way.

Is it because when you factor the regeneration of life and shields that terran should start with more total life?

Or in regards to control, was it because terran start out hindering their economy by having to take off 2 scv to make a barrack and a supply depot at the very start?

Now comparing zerg and terran strictly, that is a difference of 110 life sum of all units and structures from the start, and a difference of 1 control.

So ok, I admit.... maybe the reason why terran have one more control is because they make the supply depot and the barracks from the start...
And maybe the reason why terran start with 110 more overall life is because zerg regenerate life... sure, I'll give that the benefit of the doubt...
And maybe the reason why zerg have a permanent loss of a drone by sacrificing it for buildings, is because zerg's larvae spawn 3 total for overlapping production.

But as soon as you factor the overlord... as soon as you do that....

That's where I draw the line..... Becuase now zerg has a totally new form of hindering their economy.

Protoss sacrifice nothing from the start.
Terran sacrifice 2 scv from the start for a short period of time

Zerg however, only have a permanent sacrifice of buildings, which I give the benefit of the doubt is fair... sure, it might be.... but when you factor the sacrifice of a larvae for the overlord?

No.... Way....

I'm going to steal a concept from starcraft 2 to make the point.

Queens are produced from the hatchery. It becomes clear that overlords were supposed to be produced at the hatchery separate from from larvae.

That's simply all there is too it.

It's almost as if blizzard assumes that having the option of mass producing overlords is in some way a strength.... WHEN IT IS NOT....

IF you have 3 hatchery all of which can make an overlord seperately, you have plenty enough production for plenty enough overlords, I mean for christ's sake people...

You might say, oh, just because zerg cannot make the overlord at the hatchery has barely any effect on zerg.

100% and totally wrong. This means that zerg basically get progressively weaker and weaker as the game goes on, becuase each overlord could have been one more drone here, and one more drone there....

One more drone makes a HUGE economic difference continuing through a game!

This is why I argued that in sc2 the queen was suppose to give some amount of control...

Since the queen doesn't give any amount of control, this means blizzard has no idea what I'm talking about... and haven't had any idea of what the flaw has been with zerg the whole time...

It's like they wouldn't dare to go back through the basic design of the game and change anything, because they don't want to take the risk of pissing off too many people and losing money?

I bet that is what it is....

I want to quote from the following video....

Move forward to point 12:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtUcojA4vvQ

"this is why blizzard is taking their time to address this issue, because it is a MASSIVE problem right now with zerg, this is something that was, I dunno, swept under the rug might be the appropriate way to say it, SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE, and it's pretty much in my opinion all the things that I listed, and if I can go through a faction in a game and pick apart 10, basically every unit in the game and say that there is a problem.... there is a problem."

 

I relish in the ability to mass-produce overlords. Especially since the zerg are known for mass-producing units. Zerg have the most fluctuating supply out of all three races, because zerg are designed to lose units and build a lot all at once. If I had to steadily increase my overlord production, it would be obscenely difficult to keep up with my unit production. I admit that zerg get weaker as the game goes on, but that's the point: Not only are the three races balanced laterally, they are also balanced along the timeline.

 

Actually, a long time ago back when I was on the blizzard forums, I proposed the idea of the overlords being able to explode....

Oddly enough, I stumbled across someone with the same idea on this thread in the zerg section... I actually have not read it yet myself... I'm going to go straight to that thread....

I mean, it could be the thing that is needed for the similar yet different ability with zerg in comparison to the nuke.

Then there would actually be a reason for mass producing overlords, to explode them.

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9674

But i mean, there has to be a good reason or purpose for mass producing overlords, there is a major problem there...

But I mean, blizzard has two options here...

Either it admits it is wrong, or it gives in to the absolutely rediculous idea of an exploding overlord...

How damn pathetic is that?

Please do not double post

 

Psi's idea of overlords exploding when carrying banelings seems like a good one if such a thing is considered.

 

If zerg get progressively weaker because of the attrition of drones then why OH GOD WHY do I generally have 3 drones for every 2 scvs/probes that the other races make? How does that make sense? MAYBE its because I keep building them faster then I use them?

Once the game passes the 10 minute mark I have 2-3 hatcheries, at least. I also have queens pumping larva injection. Larvae are NOT a major hinderance i admit that early on you are slightly hindered in your production by your larvae production. Then again early terran is hindered by build times, and minerals, toss are hindered by minerals alone. All of the races are differant, and ALL OF THEM HAVE WEAKNESSES. Think of Larvae as a zerg specific resource, plan for it and make several hatcheries, youll be fine.

The reason for mass producing overlords? Its a preliminary to mass producing mutalisks, zerglings, hydralisks, ultralisks, or pretty much any other "isks" you can mention. Its also great to spred creep, transport MASSIVE armies, or get back up to supply cap after your overlord clump just got raped by phoenixes.

 

Go ahead and delete the replies, except any replies that are important to starcraft and the evolution of starcraft and don't be too picky.

 

I definitely feel that if the Zerg are underpowered in any situation, it is that mutalisks are really the only way to go if you have any intention of countering an air rush.

 

You know, for a second there, I thought that maybe you were making a point on something that I was not aware of.

So I went and looked up the time it takes for an scv to build, and it is the exact same as the drone, 20 seconds.

With all the previous points made, my assertion still stands.

 

You don't understand again what he meant. Build times is time spent for the scv inside the building while building. Protoss can build a whole base with 1 builder if they have enough funds in as much time as it takes to build a nexus, while terran can build a whole base with 1 scv but it'll take ages and zerg can only build 1 building/worker, but the worker cost is always reduced from the building cost and the way zerg can produce workers(with 1 hatchery a zerg player can produce up to 7 workers at the same time! for terran and toss to do that it'd take them 7 command centers/nexi!)

It's different mechanics that boost/hinder each race here or there. If there weren't such mechanics the races would be homogenised.

Yes zerg are hindered by having to sacrifice workers and yes they do have to balance their larvas correctly, but if they lose those hinderances then they become OP. If the other races lose weaknesses to counter this then we're going for homogenisation.

Your weakness is there: Learn to work ways around it and turn it into your strength. That works for every race, period.

As for OP/UP arguments, yes some numbers could take some tuning and yes it's not as easy to play every race but isn't it asking a bit way too much asking for such things? Plus it'll take away flavor.

In DnD wizards are hell way harder to play than fighters because they are limited by per day spells and have to pick the right one for the right occasion and reserve the ones that are not nessessary needed, while fighters just go all-out and attack stuff. A wizard is way harder to play, but that doesn't make them weak(quite the contrary to be honest).

All 3 races are fine. the number tuning? Well that will happen in time, tweaks come and go, the mechanics are all nice, unique and make you feel like you're playing something completely different when playing a different race, and you get to think of new strategies. The game is fun to play and all players of equal skill can win and lose against each other with any race. If that ratio is not 50/50 but45/55 or even 40/60 no big deal, so long as the same race is not at the lower part against both others.

 

Overlords being able to be produced at the hatchery was the problem with sc1, this should be saying something about sc2, and makes whether the queen giving more control or not very questionable.



Let me stand back and try to understand why exactly zerg have 3 larvae for a second...

At the start, you have drone, warrior, and overlord.

That's 3 totally different types of units.

If we were to treat each larvae as if it was a building slot, like in the same way that terran or protoss production is, then I kind of see why zerg would have 3 larvae...

1 slot to compensate for overlord, 1 slot to compensate for workers, and 1 to compensate for warriors.

But guess what, each larvae isn't even represnetative of a slot, it's more like 1 big slot with overlapping production.

How much you want to make a bet that this is the type of thinking that went on in the person's head who designed zerg? Oh, they have overlord, drone and warrior so 3 larvae will be like 3 slots... but in no way does it even come close to equaling 3 slots in order to compensate for zerg producing zergling, drone, and warrior from larvae.

It's almost as if the hatchery was suppose to spawn larvae faster after the "Spawning" pool was produced to compensate for the production of warrior, drone, and overlord from one building.

I mean, it is called the spawning pool after all....

But I don't think that is the problem, even though I could be right....

I don't think that larvae were suppose to come in pairs... or something severe like that...

I just think the overlord should have been capable of being produced at the hatchery seperate from larvae...

It's really quite the obvious problem as it always was, and not being admited by blizzard, or perhaps even the more dreadful thought... not being known of by blizzard means that this could still be an issue that carried over in to starcraft 2 in all probability.

 

Please just stick to brainstorming instead of bashing Blizzard.

Food for thought, Atlas. If you followed the development of SC2 you saw the radical ideas and stats that came up from time to time. Why do you think the vast majority of stats and units/roles are the same as in SC? Would you be inclined to say that Blizzard was lazy, or would you rather agree that the balance that SCBW achieved by its latest patch was so perfect that it was almost fully ported to SC2? Note the planned change for the siege tank in 1.1 - currently it deals a full 60 damage to all units, unlike in SC... and now they're planning to approximate the Crucio to the Arcli.te by reducing its damage to small units... why? Because SC is the gold standard of balance.

As for your post about larvae, it could easily be balanced by reducing the time before another larva is spawned. In fact the choice of having 3 has more to do with trial and error than your drone/control/offensive division since you don't make offensive units in the beginning and you don't morph drones in late game unless you need to restock on them. I believe Blizzard arrived at 3 larvae by determining how fast Zerg needed units in general and how fast larva spawn was still acceptable (e.g., it would've been butt ugly if you only had 1 larva per hatchery but as soon as you started morphing something another would pop, up until 3 eggs - undoubtedly this would've resulted in the same rate of unit spawn and yet they chose the 3 idle version).

 

Ok, im puzzled. Why "should" overlords be produced at the hatchery? Why does it make a difference one way or the other? I understand you think it SHOULD be that way, but WHY? Please, just offer one supporting shred of proof/fact/blizzard commentary/supported opinion because I honestly dont know why you feel that way.

It seems like you think the zerg aren't what YOU would make them and so you are finding things that you feel proves the point you want them too. Im not attacking you, I just honestly dont understand where you are coming from.

For every point you've made about why zerg SHOULD be a certain way at least 3 others have given you a counter argument. For every thing you've said was obvious three or more have told you it wasn't. You say zerg larvae is unbalanced because you have to share production. Well, terrans are unbalanced because I have to have supply TAKEN UP by my builders while they are building and unable to do anything. Do you know how long it takes to build a cc? FOREVER! Toss are unbalanced because if you kill their pylons it stops their buildings completely. (note to self, when I build a cannon wall have MORE then 1 pylon powering it.)

My point is that anyone can sit and pick out everything they would change about the various races, and why it SHOULD be that way, but you HAVE to have some sort of a logical argument, or it doesn't make sense.

Last point, are you talking about sc1, or sc2You keep referencing sc1 supply points when in sc2 everythings raised by 1, zerg/toss are at 10, and terrans at 11.

 

He feels that overlords take up too much of the production for early-game Zerg, thus causing Zerg to be underpowered.

You think the queen should give more control. In a very roundabout way, it does. Make constant use of the queen's larva spawning ability. This more than doubles your larva output, which greatly increases unit production for the zerg over the terran and protoss. Queen: 150 minerals. Strong anti-air unit, capable of spawning 4 larva somewhere around the time it takes to build, say, two marines? Barracks: 150 minerals. Capable of producing only one unit at a time. Gateway: 150 minerals. Capable of producing only one unit at a time. The queen is the key to your overlord production issue: The larva spawn is what balances zerg.

 

Zerg isn't underpowered. In fact on the Korean servers for the entire beta Zerg was considered overpowered. Speed zerglings have such stupidly good map control early game (thus allowing an early expansion) that it makes up for any weakness they might have. Enemy can't push out and attack your expansion because if they do, just make a ton of zerglings to surround and kill their force.

 

Actually, it would be stupid for me to say that it should give control apparently... I mean, I would have to say that it shouldn't cost control.... errr...

As far as the second point goes, perhaps only time will tell.

 

Ok, well what about this...

Here's a possibility, even though it is kind of in reference to the old game...

In my opinion, it seems like the terran and the toss can barrack or gate first and get away with it with out losing economy.

While with zerg, in order to keep up in production, even if the opponent makes gate, you still have to expand first...

This is going to sound odd, but it's almost as if zerg were always suppose to make hatch first no matter what, and terran and protoss were not suppose to be able to make a cc or nexus until after making a barrack or nexus perhaps...

But that's just too stupid, I admit...

However, I do think that this issue could be fixed for zerg who pool first... in starcraft, the standard for zerg should be pool first, but in my opinion, especially in the older game, hatch first was standard, and pretty much set up a standard failure.

I think that if a spawning pool is on the same creep as a hatchery, like if that creep is connected, it should have enhanced the speed at which larvae came out of that hatchery...

I mean like I said, it is, after all... the spawning pool...

In this way, a zerg could pool first and keep up production wise... perhaps with just the right amount of larvae that was needed to balance the game.

Because if it only enhanced the hatchery at main, because of the creep communication factor, it might be the perfect solution because it didn't enhance zerg too much or too little perhaps...

I mean, if there is a flaw, then it would more then likely be something like that you know... Something hazy... something overlooked because if its ridiculousness.


Like did you ever think about this question....


Why the hell is there an over all production jump for terran and protoss when they make that first 150 mineral barrack or gateway, when the spawning pool costs MORE, 200 minerals, and there is absolutely no production jump?

To support the previous point...

 

The races are different like that... this isn't Warcraft 2 in space with 3 races. I don't see how you can complain about the races not being unique and now you want to homogenise them. In fact, if you really wanted to, you could actually put the current state down to the 2 same 1 different concept... I wonder why you don't.

Though I admit your idea sounds nice and would promote creep highways to expansions, the ability is passive, and Zerg would definitely need an active macro mechanic like the other 2 races, otherwise it'd be too easy to macro with Z. Think of the queen as the unit that speeds up larva production, only thing different is that they don't come faster one by one but in packs of 4. So the queen does speed up larva production, but with APM needed, so it's equally hard to macro well with all three races. Obviously the 2-1 or the 3 unique principle can't be applied to difficulty of playing the race...

 

Well, at this point... I feel like sc2 does sort of wreck my idea...

Cause blizzard already promotes connecting creep together with the additional speed...


And now you can much more easily connect creep of bases using the queen...

I think they totally ruined the potential of the idea i'm proposing with these new things...


But... maybe there is still a glimpse of hope here...

What if spawn larvae could actually be cast ON the spawning pool? OR IN the spawning pool...

So like, everyone knows you always get two queen, but you can't take advantage or have the choice of using spawn larvae from both...

Like I'm not saying the spawning pool should PRODUCE larvae... I'm just saying if spawn larvae was cast in the pool... 4 larvae would come from it...

I mean.... this would have nothing to do with the connection of creep... between hatcheries but just the pool..."

I really think I'm on to something here....

 

How would spawning larvae out of the pool and not the hatchery change anything? The pool already unlocks increased larva spawn so what are you complaining about?

I have the impression that I finally see where you're coming from. The game works well and all, but not how you'd want it. It's as if I wanted overlords to have fewer eyes. This is down to tastes and frankly, you're massively outnumbered. I suggest you start accepting what SC and SC2 are. If you don't like it, don't play it. But thanks for supporing the developers with your money.

 

Man, I've said it before and I'll say it again, do you even realize how much a small flaw changes the game the longer the game plays out?

The spawning pool is comparable to the gateway, or the barrack....

You only ever get one spawning pool, but terran and toss have many gateways and many racks.

Who's to say that the spawning pool wasn't suppose to be part of production. I mean you only get one of them...

Unlocking the queen? That is simply a stupid counter argument....

How does it help or fix zerg?

Clearly cleary the spawning of larvae at the pool does... it makes up for the sacrifice of all drones for buildings, the production of overlords from larvae, AND, the shared production between warrior and worker.

Pool first should be standard, and after pool, that's when you have the 3 way economic gang bang coupled with drone sacrifice....