BDotM Version 3. First I would like to say I was very disappointed in the lack of showing in the Thor discussion. That makes me a sad panda. That said thank you for the good showing in the shield thread. Kudos _________________________________________________ This month's BDotM was delayed slightly because nothing seemed of interest at the beginning but with the 12 to a drop pod I figured I'd have a crack at another (and I forgot). What this means is you only have 2 weeks to discuss as opposed to 3 or 4 so try not to hammer a single topic into the ground like happened to the shield thread *cough*immortal*cough* instead try to discuss everything. This month's discussion will be on the subject of mobility of all the races. First the Terran Dropship. --It has to land to deploy now but units come out more than one at a time so how do you think that will affect deployment? ----Will this get rid of the tactic of unloading on the move? Is that bad? ----Will the delay between the unload order and the actual unloading be detrimental? Should that be changed with the realism being dropped for better gameplay? ----How many units should come out at once? --all at once, a fixed number (2 marines at once but also 2 tanks at once) or a fraction (half the hold 1/4 the hold -- 4) --In the original the Dropship had 8 slots with each unit taking up 1, 2 or 4 slots depending on its size ----Should it keep the same number of slots or should it get more? 10 marines per ship ----Should the unit sizes change? Maybe a tank takes up 6 slots now --The Thor has been made smaller to fit its new role ----This means it is plausible for it to fit into aDS (we don't know its new size though so it might still not be) Discuss the merit of this. ----If it is a good idea to put a Thor into aDS then what size should it be? 4 slots? 8 slots? More? Drop Pod --From what we have heard it can hold infantry and SCVs --It can hold infantry ----Is allowing SCVs in one a good idea or would it allow someone to set up a new base too quickly ----Could they allow vehicles in a drop pod or does a couple of tanks coming from the sky scare you too much? --It has 12 slots inside ----is 12 too large of a number for the relative protection and rapid deployment the drop pod has? Should it be decreased to a point where using dropships to ferry marines becomes a viable alternative? Phase Prism --In SC1 the Shuttle had 8 slots with the same slot requirements as the dropship. ----Should this remain the same or would a lower capacity be the trade off for its phasing ability(hold 6 now)? ----Should all infantry still take up 2 slots and all vehicles take 4 or can that be changed too? ----Would the colossus take up all space in a prism or should it be small enough where you can put a few more units in there with it perhaps even another colossus? --From what we have seen units materialize directly below it ----Should it take a few seconds for units to dematerialize and rematerialize to make it take the same time as a dropship? ----Should more than one unit be allowed to dematerialize at a time? ----Should it have to stop to load and unload? Warp in --Allows units from a warp gate to go anywhere you have power ----Should it be anywhere or a limited range from the warp gate of origin? -- any upgrades to boost that range? ----Should it stay as just warp gate units or could it also be extended to allowing units from other facilities to use warp in ------Would a warp gate still be required for other buildings to use warp in ----Should units already built be allowed to dematerialize and rematerialize using a warp gate providing near instantaneous travel as it recall was used? ------What would be the cost of this? Energy? Gas? Minerals? Upgrade required? --It takes a few seconds for a unit to warp in and it is vulnerable during this time ----Should a unit have full HP and SP when warpin starts or a gradual increase ----would warpin time be percentage based (25% a second) or a fixed number (25 HP a second) ----How quickly should this happen Add anything else you think is important.
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility Terran: I believe transports will retain drop-on-the-move capability, and probably individual unloading. I do see it as possible that they might eventually be given a multi-unload ability that requires the "landing" cycle. At the moment I believe the landing is only an animation. We don't know what the Thor acts like in its current role. I see it as just a thicker Goliath right now, it would probably take up 4 slots, like a tank. If it is still fairly big, it might take up the full vehicle. Either way, it is good to have it loadable, because the superunit Thor would not plausibly fit into a Dropship. Also remember that the CC can now transport SCVs. The other races will need something to match the Terrans' expanding power. I believe the ability to scrap Terran structures is a form of mobility. At the expense of time, a Terran building can effectively be "teleported" to another location or "transformed" into another structure, unit, or upgrade. We don't know the final cost of the Drop Pod yet, the ease of deployment, time, etc. We've seen videos of it, and it was present at BlizzCon, but it has been many months and it is very possible that the ability to load 12 units is being balanced with some other cost. I do not think vehicles should be loadable into Drop Pods for purely aesthetic reasons: each loadable unit lowers the uniqueness of the mode of transport. Protoss: My experience with the Phase Prism at BlizzCon would lead me to hope that the unit actually gets a larger carrying capacity. It is very easy to Phase units in, but difficult to get them out of tricky places like islands when you only used one Phase Prism to get them there. The downside of Warp-In is that the mobility is one-directional. I'd like to see a mechanic that allows for the evacuation of units from remote locations as well. My personal preference would be the reimplementation of Recall. The Colossus is not as strong as people seem to think it is: it is close to the Siege Tank in scariness, though tougher and more mobile. I fully expect to see the Colossus taking up 4 slots in the final build. I repeat my Dropship argument with the Phase Prism: the land-and-unload animation should be just that. Forced delays punctuate gameplay and should be avoided if possible. I believe, if the transport were to unload multiple units at once, then a brief delay, shorter than the combined unload time of the individual units, would be in order. With the Warp Gate, I do not expect to see other structures using the warp-In mechanic, not even the Nexus, even though I'd love it. First, expanding the mechanic to larger units like the Colossus and Warp-Ray would make a single Phase Prism incredibly lethal. Massed Stargates don't cost much more than massed Gateways, and if their units could use Warp-in, it would allow for players do, say, warp-in more Phase Prisms, as one might do with an Arbiter with Recall, and overrun an enemy position very quickly. That said, if warp-In were implemented with other Protoss units and structures, each structure should also have its own researchable warp-In form, just as the Gateway does. Otherwise the researching of warp-in would become an extreme no-brainer, removing it as an "option" and removing it as something that would make SC2 a "game" as games are all about choice. I would like to see some sort of "warp-out" mechanic for already-built units, as I meantioned before, something like Recall. Perhaps, if Recall overlaps too heavily with warp-in, it can be a one-way thing as well. I would make it an ability of the Warp Gate, also researchable, but it might also be attached to to other structures, or even larger units like the Mothership. I would give it an energy cost if it were attached to a unit, a time cost if it were attached to a structure (ok, so they're really the same thing if you think about it). I would charge minerals, as the units have already been paid for... I mean, I suppose it would be a bit like a Drop Pod, which you DO have to pay for, but again, I wouldn't. Actually, what I would do is make warp-out a Gateway ability, a researchable upgrade like warp-in. You select the unit you want pulled off the battlefield (though it must be on Pylon power) and the Gateway begins to warp it out. The unit would sit, paralyzed as a phase-mass, for its full build time before emerging at the Gateway, as if it were just built. This mechanic, like warp-in, would be limited to units that can be built at the Gateway/Warp Gate. Approaching it this way would make it an interesting mirror to warp-in and normal building. Warp-out would take exactly as much time as warp-in and normal building, but would come at the cost of leaving units vulnerable for long periods of time, so it can't be used as an active harassment tactic. Warp-in HP/SP increases should be (and I believe they are) like the warp-in of buildings (that is how they're built, after all) with an initial 10%-25% that increases to 100% as the process completes. If warp-in drops become too heavy as an attack strategy, it may be reasonable to start HP/SP values at 0% to allow enemies to pick the units off if they are unprotected. The Phase Cannon: an interesting boost in mobility, the structure is like the weak cousin of the Siege Tank, and will end up being used in pushes much like the Siege Tank. Does it make sense that it can move around outside of Pylon power? I'd rather it became "disabled" if it lost Pylon power. Otherwise it seems more like a unit that is built by the Probe than a mobile structure.
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility I like the idea of the units when warping in start with a small percentage of health. That way a single infantry unit can't counter a warp in. It does need to be low enough that a decent contingent can kill all the units if the enemy decides to warp intothe middle of your base though. Do you think that the health gain of units should be the same as buildings? Also I like the idea of a warpout as well. Some time back I suggested a structure that allowed the transport of units between areas of pylon power the only caveat being that the initial and final points both had to be within a certain range ofone of these structures effectiveley locking this option to bases since building one of these in a combat zone using a prysm would fail most of the time.
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility I think the matter of the amount of health units start with is something that can really only be decided in balancing. The only thing that would make it matter is if large defenses cannot handle large warp-ins, or if small defenses can. In the first case we'd want the HP/SP to start low, in the second we'd want it to start high. Ideally, an appropriate-sized defense should be able to just barely stop a set of warp-ins. As for the rate, I think it should be linear, as all StarCraft rates are. Buildings gain HP quickly because they're gaining hundreds of HP in 30-60 seconds. Units would have lower rates because they have a lower HP/Time ratio. Also, linear rates are easy to grasp (this is important!) and the advantages of other types of increase don't manage to overcome that. I don't like the idea of having range for a long-range ability like warp-out. It changes the effectiveness of the ability based on the size of the map and the distances of the starting bases. I don't see why a recall ability would have to be limited to bases while warp-in, an incredibly aggressive mechanic, isn't. The fact that units would spend a great deal of time stranded as it is phased over should be enough of a limitation. Because it would be a separate (albeit similar) mechanic to warp-in, and because it is much more limited in terms of its ability to quickly get a unit in to an enemy base (if you're building Gateways in their base, you might as well just build new units, as it would take the same time as warp-out) Actually, I am coming to think that it would be just fine to attach the mechanic to the Warp Gate... issuing a warp-in command would be physically different from issuing a warp-out command, warp-in involves selecting the unit you want to build, then placing it, warp-out would involve selecting the warp-out order and selecting the unit you want to recall, so there wouldn't be the interface ambiguity that I thought there would be when it first occurred to me.
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility Maybe the process of warping out could be made faster. If you ever play Universe at war you can double click and it will cause units to break formation and go at maximum speed and that means that units that can telaport or use the flow (rapid transit device) will do so. Could work the same way here. Double click on a power field and the unit will start to warp there
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility Mobility. What is mobility, in a game? Mobility is the meter that measures the ability to move. This does NOT mean whether it is stationary or not. This includes many other factors, namely, speed, endurance, and maneuverability. Speed is the rate at which you traverse the terrain, endurance doesn't effect SC2, and maneuverability is basically how well the ability to move is. SC2 also introduces the z-factor, which is vertical distance. This is mobility-but how does it affect a game? Speed. Speed is what determines how much time you are going to spend positioning and, in a sense, moving itself. The faster unit can be positioned for attack, micro-managed, and redeployed in less game time than the slower unit. Therefore, faster units are usually the weaker units. This is natural in a game, as the stronger units are usually bigger anyways, and it makes more sense for them to be slower. Maneuverability. This is much more diverse and complex than speed. Size affects maneuverability much more than it does speed. A great example of the effects of maneuverability is the Thor, as it turns slowly. More maneuverable units will deal with the Thor differently than less maneuverable units. This isn't to say more maneuverable units are better, but that they will be used in a way that less maneuverable units won't. When speed and maneuverability clash, we get mobility. Different combinations of these attributes create diverse units: The small and fast zergling, the large, powerful Thor, the very maneuverable but slow Reaver. When we discuss the mobility of a unit, we discuss the unit itself, in all the glory that it was aesthetically and conceptually designed. Mobility can also be applied to a race. The Protoss in SC2 have become much more maneuverable than before, with their ability to warp-in anywhere they have a transport, which can already carry units around. The cannons themselves can be redeployed, allowing for mobile defenses. In fact, the cannons should no longer be looked upon as a building, but as a unit that can only attack when not moving. We can expect to see decisive, planned-out, speedy attacks by Protoss players, because they can now basically have units where-ever they desire. The Terran in SC2 have, as expressed before, become a turtling race. They have buffed-up defenses that are about as maneuverable as a mountain. However, with the introduction of the Viking, the Terran have an outlet. Vikings are just about the most maneuverable unit in the Terran arsenal, and will most likely lead almost all of the raids and attacks. We can expect to see defensive-passive strategies with large raids on the opponent throughout the game by Terran players, because of their stronger defenses and the Viking unit. the Zerg in SC2 will be discussed at a later date, as not much is known about them as of yet. However, the Nydus Worm DOES express the ability to quickly change a unit from defense to offense, allowing for sprawled, sudden strikes that can be tweaked with more or less units by deploying a worm or by retreating a unit back to defenses, seeing how they are still extremely speedy, as always.
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility I'd also like to point out each race has different methods of primary movement. Protoss teleport everywhere- Phase Prism, Warp In, (Moving defensive structures in energy forms) Terrans fly everywhere- Drop pods, Drop ships, Vikings, Reapers. Zerg run (fastest ground units on average) everywhere. I'm also sure they will be moving underground too. Also they have a quick method of travel via Nydus Worm. So as you can see Zerg are the travellers. Now discussing mobility, each race has its own unique way of getting around and it's own unique way of doing things for example: Colussus walks over cliffs, buildings, and units. Stalker can teleport to most places. Reaper traverses terrian at the fastest speed. Viking can go anywhere it can land. Now these are very mobile units as they have more than one function compared to other units, but whereas other units may have multiple purposes these units can do things which other would need assistance with such as a big heavy tank getting to a higher point but the Colossus can simply climb and it still retains it's powerful attack meaning the Colossus is more mobile than a Tank. But when discussing mobility unit size also comes into play as that can affect various things like Marines getting in tight space where a melee unit cannot reach it thus giving it the advantage over this unit. Which allows a weak unit to be very valuable which I think adds to mobility as if this couldn't happen the Marine wouldn't be taken into high regard at most times. Also people say Terran are not mobile, they are just as mobile as any other race. Reasons being? Flying buildings. Possibly a building which can produce on the move and serve as a repair point; the Starport. They can repair/heal any unit in their arsenal. Their CC can transform into a Surveilence tower to scan the map or a fortress to defend a key point such as the mineral area which would otherwise reqire units. They have a unit which may be directly built on to the battlefield which is equivilant to a warp in or drop. They can deploy defense structures anywhere on the map which the other races can't do as they require pylon power and creep to build on. Call down small infantry to any spot with in vision. Call down a nuke at reletive ease equivilent to an army of units crippling a base. A unit which travels by air and ground when the command is issued. Defensive structures which can load any tier 1-1.5 unit which allows you to customize the defense to best suit conditions. After a unit dies it can still attack, being the Thor. So in my final opinion all the races are mobile in their own rights and each have very different mobility aspects and I think Terrans are no longer a souly turtle faction as they are just as or even more mobile than the other units/races.
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility Indeed, most of the above statements are true. Before I make my argument, I have a few questions for Zergalicious: •Where is the backup for this statement? I'm also sure they will be moving underground too. •This is not similar, because it is most likely the longest build time for any terrain unit: They have a unit which may be directly built on to the battlefield which is equivilant to a warp in or drop. Now, as for your argument in general: Many of your statements as per the Terran being mobile (A) require high levels of the tech tree, (B) require a building or structure in a well-defended area, and/or (C) take too much time to really be useful in an offensive. Your tech tree growth will be done in the same place. I know this because it will cost too much money to build defenses for tech tree buildings in serperate areas. Therefore, we can assume that all the tech tree will be in one place, which will have high defenses. Also, you will need structures like a nuclear silo to launch an offensive nuke, which must be defended. As before, you don't want to build defenses for high-tech or high-cost structures in two different places... it is easier to put them in the same place. Since you have all of your tech and buildings required for offensives in the same place, you immediately become a turtling race. You must construct your Thor someplace defended, which is inside of your only large defensive area. The Terran truly depend on turtling in Starcraft 2. However, the Viking does allow for amazing raid benefits, as do other units. But the raiding must be planned for at least a little within the defenses. Therefore, yes, the Terran are a turtling race.
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility I agree. But just to clarify I didn't say Terran wasn't a turtling race I said now they won't be souly a turtling race as they are more mobile (see examples) than before or not known. But I can expect Terran players to camp out in a highly fortified base then send their units to enemies along secluded paths going for a suprise raid attack, especially during the block-in phase as Reapers can fly out but then again, since the supply depots can lower that means they can mobilize more units either way...
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility Going back to the main discussion, Dropships: Whether or not dropships really have to land to drop off units is still a mystery. Most likely it's an animation, as in the gameplay video, marines came out of the dropship before it landed fully, suggesting it has no real effect on the gameplay. It's possible that on-the-move, one-by-one dropping was exchanged for instant deployment of all units in the dropship. However this is highly unlikely. Forcing the player to drop all units in the dropship would require them to put some of their units back in if it wasn't their intended destination. This would be too much hassle to deal with and will for no reason make it into the game. My theory is that if you click on the individual icons of the units in the dropships, they'll come out one by one, but if you use the "Unload All" command, they'll drop off immediately. I don't see why Thors shouldn't be allowed to be transported via dropships. Their only difference is that they have two lives and they're built by an SCV. That's no reason to make them impossible to transport. At worst they should take up an entire dropship to transport, if not then only 4 or 6. It's better than not giving it any transportation at all and making them completely useless in some maps. Drop Pods: Awesome idea. I don't think this is too fast, since the ghost needs to get to the location first to target it, and the ghost isn't a fast unit. So it'll take about the same time for the units to arrive as if they were using a dropship. As for protection, I wouldn't say the drop pods are very safe. If the ghost is killed while targeting, the drop pod will be gone forever, and as ghosts don't have a whole lot of health, it might actually be more dangerous than using dropships. Also I like that only SCVs and infantry are allowed in the drop pods. Plopping down a few siege tanks in nearly no time is just way too much mobility for such firepower. 12 is also a good number. 12 SCVs are nearly a full base which allows them to expand quickly enough. The ghost would require some support while targeting in case the enemy finds him. In that case, assuming we're using the dropship, we could have 7 marines with him, or 5 marines and 2 medics, etc. Probably enough to hold off a small attack but no full-on assaults. Phase Prisms: I see no problems with this. The unit sizes seem well-tailored to fit the Protoss. The colossus should only be the same size as a normal large unit. I don't see a reason why it should be any bigger, since they're converted into an energy form anyway. Carrying capacity is fine as it is. Dropping off should be the same as the dropship, see above. Warp In There shouldn't be a litmit to where units can warp in, as they need to be in pylon power already and that would make it rather redundant. Warpgates should be the only structure to use warp in so it won't be too OP. Warping in a few Colossi near your enemy's base is rather OP. I like the idea of newly made units being able to use warp gates to warp anywhere on the map. This should require an upgrade, and the process should be the same with them for newly made units. Units should have a percentage of their health when they warp in, around 10-25%. The amount of time it takes for them shouldn't be too long, somewhere around 10 seconds, as they have a cooldown period anyways.
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility My two cents: Terran Dropship I really like the landing animation, but I agree that it should not affect gameplay (by an unloading delay). As long as the time it takes for an Overlord/Phase Prism/Dropship to unload one unit is the same across the board even with the Dropship's animation, I say keep it. In other words, if two units need to come out at once to match the pace of Zerg and Protoss unloading than so be it. This way, Dropship tactics can remain similar to the original Starcraft with the only differences lying in new units and new anti-air methods. As far as unit slots go, I think eight was a good number. Don't fix what isn't broken, Blizzard. Along these lines, whatever method was used to determine unit sizes in the original should be re-used for the same thing in Starcraft II - but it should be started from scratch. This way, we get a balanced distribution of slot sizes and possibly some changes when compared with the original game. I don't think the Thor should fit in a Dropship even though it is now a little bit smaller. Lore-wise, it is so big that it has to be constructed on the battlefield, so it makes sense that it would not fit in a Dropship. However, there is no way that a Thor should be trapped on an island. I say go with an idea that has been brought up elsewhere on the forums: jets. The Thor should be able to have an upgrade that lets it move like a building. Drop Pod I don't think that allowing the Drop Pod to hold SCVs will allow somebody to set up a new base too quickly. The only time I really see this being useful is when a player's enemy is in the way of a new expansion. Cloak Ghost, walk around, Drop Pod. Otherwise, if you can walk a Ghost there, might as well just walk everybody. I definitely think it is a big no-no to allow vehicles in the Drop Pod. I really like the new mobility Terran is experiencing, but this may take it over the edge. I also think that allowing Terrans to Drop Pod any unit would start to look too much like the Protoss warp-in mechanic... For the number of slots, I think that as long as the Drop Pod is appropriately cost-balanced twelve shouldn't be a problem. Balance is really all I care about here. Phase Prism As I stated above, I definitely think that the Overlord, Phase Prism, and Dropship should all have the same carrying capacity. The new phasing ability is a mechanic that should be countered by another mechanic, not by a lowering of the Phase Prism's transporting ability. The same logic as the Dropship should also be followed for unit slot sizes - determine them again from scratch to see what works best. Having units materialize directly below the Phase Prism is also a good idea. It helps to keep the unloading mechanism consistent across all three races. And again, the unload time of a Phase Prism/Dropship/Overlord should all be identical for balance reasons. So yes, make the materializing/dematerializing take enough time to counter the Dropship's landing, and the Overlord's whatever (since we don't know if the unloading will change for Zerg). And it should have to stop to unload - otherwise a unit's atoms will be too scattered to be reconstructed properly. Warp-In Warp-In is one of my favorite new mechanics in Starcraft II. As it stands right now, I think that Blizzard is doing a good job. Pylon power only, no limited range, Warp Gate requirement, etc. all seem to be appropriate. That said, I do agree that some sort of mechanism for the opposite process needs to be in Starcraft II, and I am also in favor of bringing back some sort of recall. For balance reasons though, I do think that a Pylon power field should still be required. For the actual appearance of units, I think that X% of HP per second should materialize - but enemy units could damage warping-in units without an armor penalty. This way, materializing units would be extra vulnerable. Also, I think if the Pylon/Phase Prism power or Warp Gate is destroyed, all warping in units from said destroyed source should not finish and vanish without reimbursing Minerals/Gas. I know it is a little harsh, but the Warp-In mechanic allows for some pretty rapid deployment and new strategy, so it is worth it. Overall I am really liking what we are seeing so far from Blizzard as far as mobility goes. The Protoss, with the advent of Warp-In, can rapidly deploy anywhere on the battlefield and transport extremely efficiently. The Terrans can quickly establish new bases (faster buildings, SCV transport) and reinforce their troops with modest forces (Drop Pod). The two mechanisms are vastly different between the Protoss and Terran but both achieve added mobility for each race in an effective manner. I personally do not feel like much more is necessary for either race when it comes to these new mechanics.
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility Keep up the good work guys. There is still a week left before I have to write summary and close this thread so keep your thoughts coming in. Also you don't just have to comment on the current state. Please add any suggestions you have to improve mobility and the balance of power_________________________________________________ On the topic of the Terrans I have this to say: The Terrans are a turtle race because they have so many diverse defenses but that by no means immobilizes them. Most of their structures can take off and move only leaving behind the defenses and some minor structures so in that case they could be considered more mobile than the other two because they are the only ones who can move heir base. Also just wanna throw this out as well. I like the phase cannon's ability to move but personally I think it could not be allowed to leave the power field and if power is lost then it is in phased mode it should just *poof* and be gone. _________________________________________________Also I am taking suggestions for next month's DotM so PM me with any ideas you have and subjects you think would be good to discuss.
Re: Bird's Discussion of the Month: Mobility Everything has been said in other threads, I think the lack of posts is due to the fact no one wants to repeat them selfs.
Well the discussion is over now. I would like to thank those few of you who have participated. The summary as sent to Joneagle_X is can be found Here but I will post a formatted version as an article soon and it will containstuff like real formatting and unofficial comments from me and the definition of mobility as defined by EatMeReturns. With this discussion over please go to the Omnidiscussion Topic Brainstorming thread and choose the next discussion topic.
