Micro strategy's Diminishing?

The Viking is just a bad unit. its air capabilities aren't as good as a unit that can only attack air and its ground capabilities aren't as good as a unit that can only attack ground. So whats the point? If it was produced from the Factory then i can see how useful it is getting early air, but its not! Im not positive on the Vikings cost but it better be one of the cheapest air units.

The Banshee is stronger and can clock...... making the viking even more stupid looking.

I just feel that alot of the terran micro has bin removed and protoss has far more usefull micro attributes. The Vulture was removed, no lock down, the medic was deleted........ The merader is really bad, WAY to slow and not that strong, I would rater have vultures back.

All the new Terran units are just moving rocks, were as the protoss are quicker and more agile..... and not to mention the Goliath was removed making Terran much weaker against air. Whats the Goliaths Ground to Air substitute?

 

...Thor?

And Banshee is only stronger in VSing ground units. It has no air-to-air capabilities and could be in a spot of trouble if enemy air came by with a detector.

 

Before I reply, I just gotta ask something. Where on Earth are you getting your information from?

I'll just tell a couple more things, too.

Vikings deal twenty damage against Air units, with an additional twenty against Massive units, being the Colossus and Mothership, and possibly the Battlecruiser and Carrier as well.

Marauders are as fast as Marines, and they slow down enemy units. In other words, they can kite opponents, and that requires micro.

The Hellion works in the same way as the Vulture. It's extremely effective at kiting, only now, it actually deals damage.

The Thor has adopted the role of being the Terran Ground-to-Air fighter, dealing forty damage to Air units, and an additional sixteen to Light Air units.

As for Lockdown, Snipe will provide much greater microing opportunities, and with the Medic, who knows? What could possibly replace the micro potential of those units who automatically ran around the battlefield doing everything for you?

Seeing as the vast majority of this has already been thoroughly discussed and displayed, I'd love to know where you're getting your information from, because, with all due respect, you've demonstrated little more knowledge than someone who had only been told nothing but the names of the units in StarCraft2.

 

Agreed.

But dont take it too bad buddy, its just that those complaints of yours aren't sufficient enough to support your topic. Watching battlereports 1 & 2 might change your outlook, perhaps also some korean matches I suggest. Try observing it on youtube then comeback here and prove your arguments credibility.

 

@Itza, yes the vikings do the extra damage to the battlecruiser and carriers.

Please refer to this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFNZeIwVoJs at 8:00 before you diss Hellions and micro from the terran.

Quote: All the new terran units are just moving rocks. Whats the goliaths air to ground substitute.
Not true, and as itza said, the thor. You are very uninformed.

 

Go easy on him. He's a new user. New users usually miss a lot. Anyways I haven't heard the terran not being strong. Instead I hear the terran kicking the other 2 races' bums. So you can get up to date. I recommend you go here for the 1st battle report, here for the 2nd, and here for the 3rd. As you can see in the first 2, the terran kick the other 2 races' bums. For the current terran stuff go here, for zerg here, and protoss here. As you can see your info is outdated. It looks like you got your info most likely from the old protoss and terran gameplay videos. Most of the stuff in those videos has been changed.

 

I have to admit you guys are right on most of my concerns, the only real problem im seeing right now is the cost. For example the vulture was only 75 min and no gas and built at the speed of light. Now units like hellions take a bit longer to build because they are further up the tech tree and they cost gas. Now in all honesty the hellions are my favorite new unit but some old starcraft strats that i loved to do like early factory aren't as effective. Naturally im not 100% on this because the game isn't out yet.

Anyways i bet all sorts of new strats will spawn when the game comes out. Cant wait!

Edit: OPs lol....... I gust found a site with the cost of the current units and the hellion is 100 min no gas........... Well im happy now. (slaps him self across the face).

 

According to starcraft wikia, Lightchess, the current Hellion costs no gas. And it has always been low on the tech tree, it's the first Factory unit. Don't know where you get your facts from.

The relatively higher cost compared to the Vulture is ok though. Better unit pathing and unit reaction time to your commands is sure to benefit this very fast unit (mind that it doesn't have to upgrade its speed either) during kiting and general micro.

Also, you don't need to utilize mines in order to dish out the expected damage. With the upgraded damage their attack is increased from 12 +6 vs light to 12 +16 vs light, which is huge when facing the smaller units.

It's nice and interesting for their enemies to be able to counter them with non-light units to nullify the upgrade, too.

 

Stop bickering, kids.

@ GMG. I honestly read that as "...from 12+6 vs Light to 12+6 vs Light." about four times. Twenty eight against Light units? That's honestly insane! I certainly hope Zerg get some sort of bona fide Anti-Armoured unit early on, otherwise they're dog meat.

Marauders and Hellions look like the ultimate Anti-Ground combo out of all the teams at the moment.

 

Haha, I didn't even know the upgrade existed when I started writing the post. I wiki'd the Hellion with no such expectations.

I think when Blizzard made the Roach switch place with the Hydra on the tech tree, they hit the spot. If they now just turn the bonus damage vs air into an universal damage bonus vs armor (essentially making it a lot like its SC predecessor) things will be fine.

 

Perhaps, although the Hydralisk is still a Light unit, so surely it would still be heavily out-damaged by the Hellion. At the moment, which doesn't really count for much but still, they have the same health and the same range. Even without the extra upgrade the Hellion would be dealing more damage, and dealing area of effect damage as well.

In my opinion the Roach would be the best to be given an Anti-Armoured attack. Obviously not so much that it would become the clear-cut counter to the Hellion, but enough to give it some backing, as well as to replace the terrible Anti-Biological bonus it has now, hopefully solving the Zerg versus Zerg problem of massing Roaches which Blizzard's apparently been having. It's hard to imagine what's going through their head when thinking about it. I mean, they give a Biological team a unit that deals twice as much damage against Biological targets, which also regenerates like nothing before, then they find the fact that said unit gets massed when this Biological team plays against the same Biological team surprising.

The only problem I'd really have with giving the Roach an Anti-Armoured bonus is that it would result in each team having an Armoured unit with a bonus against Armoured units. Much like the Marauder and Stalker at the moment, one would obviously have to come out stronger than the others, which would basically result in the other two's bonuses not really being of any use, as they wouldn't even be effective against the units they're designed to be effective against.

 

The zerg do have a counter against the hellion. The baneling. The hellion may do lots of damage to it. But if you send in roachs or zerglings in first, then the banelings. You could kill the hellions. But you have to send in enough roachs or zerglings to hold the line until the banelings do their work. I have to agree with you ItzaHexGor. I have made my own version of starcraft with the warcraft 3 editor. Believe me I gave the zerg type race an Ultralisk type unit with an hp reg. upgrade. Giving it 5 hp per second. Before it was 2. The unit was the ultimate killing machine. With it's hp reg. it was very hard to kill. I haven't seen it's hp go more than 30 lower than it's max. The roach is a smaller version of this unit. The roach in a zerg vs zerg is the ultimate killing machine. Hard to kill, and it kills your unit fast. I know how blizzard must be feeling in trying to balance it. Me, I could just adjust the hp reg added in the upgrade or have it not use the upgrade. But the roach would be harder. I think we should buff up the Hydralisk so it can take the roach out. Or at least an upgrade of some kind.

 

The Baneling can easily be kited by a Hellion. Even with the speed upgrade, the Baneling is slower.


Itza, what if the Roach had a bonus damage vs light instead of biological then? Wouldn't that help ZvZ somewhat?

 

You really think hellions counter Hydralisks? Normally I would think the hellions couldnt be much more cost-effective then the Hydralisks?!? At least earlygame it shouldnt be a problem for the zerg player, because if the Terran tech's fast to Hellions the Zerg with his 1.5 tier Hydralisks will have a better econ.

"Itza, what if the Roach had a bonus damage vs light instead of biological then? Wouldn't that help ZvZ somewhat?"

I was thinking about that too. And then give the Hydra a low + dmg against air and armor (like +3 and then 10 dmg standard or something).

 

Your guys are probably all zerg players because your over reacting to the power of the hellion. The hellion dies just as fast as the old vultures and on top of that it has no mines. If there were mines and cost the same then i would agree with you. Groups of Hydras rape vultures and they should be just as affective against hellions.

 

Hellions do a lot of damage against Hydralisks, Vulturues didnt (especially because ovies countered mines perfectly).

Helion (armored) (100minerals):
Ground Attack: 12 (+6 vs light) (gains +15 vs light with upgrade)

Hydralisk (light) (75 minerals + 25gas):
Ground attack: 10
Air attack : 10 (+6 vs armored)

So with the Hydralisks lower Tier I am suggesting this instead (Zerg doesnt need a GtA "only" unit IMO):

Hydralisk (light) (75 minerals + 25 gas):
Ground attack: 9 (+3 vs armored)
Air attack: 9 (+5 vs armored)

One last point: Look at our logos, I think im the only Zerg player

 

Yep, if anything, the Hellion is the counter to the Baneling. It's faster, has a relatively long range, has a bonus against Banelings, and deals Area of Effect damage. In the latest media release, there was a short video of a huge group of both Banelings and Zerglings trying to take on a smaller group of Hellions, and quite simply, they didn't get near.

As for the bonus against Light units, I'm not really sure. I can't imagine anything being too wrong with it, and it'd hopefully put an end to the Zerg versus Zerg Roach-spam matches. However, thinking about it, everything the Zerg has until Roaches is Light, being Zerglings, Banelings Hydralisks and, of course, Drones. So in Zerg versus Zerg matches, going straight for the Roach might become a viable option. Provided it doesn't simply become the norm, and is done in every game, that has the potential to open up early Zerg games much more than they previously were. On top of that, the Marine, Zealot and all worker units are all Light, which are generally what the Roach is designed to counter, and are probably Biological anyway, and on top of that, it also sets up their counter of Marauders and Stalkers much clearer. Obviously it doesn't have to end up that they have no chance against them, and the fact remains that regardless of what happens with the Roach, they Marauder and Stalker still specialise at taking them out.

The one problem, however, is probably still the Hellion. It's still Armoured. There's the possibility of giving the Hydra a universal bonus against Armoured units, but I'm not too sure about that. It just sets up too much of a clear Anti-Light and Anti-Armoured contrast in the first tier of each team.

In fact, I just realised, there's the Queen, too. She's Armoured, has a lot of health, and a fairly decent attack. On top of that, Zerg has Transfusion, and while I still reckon it would work better on the Overseer, two Queens could potentially restore the other to full health, twice, each. That's like each Queen having over five hundred health. Again, I reckon Transfusion should stay with the Overseer, though provided Queens aren't still as slow off the Creep as they used to be, they could be a good counter to Hellions.

As for the Hellion and the Vulture, the Hellion is much, much more powerful.

The Hellion has ninety health, deals twelve damage against most units, and eighteen damage against Light units which can be upgraded to about twenty seven against Light. It's just as fast and just as microable as the Vulture, but deals Area of Effect damage instead.

The Vulture had eighty health, and dealt twenty Concussive damage. Concussive damage meant that it did fifty percent damage against Medium units, and twenty five percent damage against Large units.

This means that while, at best, the Vulture could deal ten damage against a single Hydralisk, the Hellion can deal twenty seven damge to a group of Hydralisks.

About logos, I'm just with the Protoss 'cause they simply look the best. If anything, I'm leaning towards Zerg or Terran for StarCraft2.

 

Well the hellion has to have a weakness against zerg. For one thing why in one of the Battle Reports didn't the Terran player use hellions? I bet the hellions die just as fast as vultures and if you check the video of the hellions entering the zerg base and killing a bunch of drowns, right after they were instantly killed by some Ultras. For some reason in all the Terran matches no one uses them. There must be a reason.

 

Well Ultralisks are an obvious counter, especially when the Hellions are trapped amongst the mineral lines. The only problem is that Hellions are rarely in that situation, and the Ultralisks, particularly in those numbers, come into play much, much later.

Thinking back over it, I guess the Roach is a fair counter to Hellions. Something doesn't have to have a bonus against Armoured units to be effective against them, and the fact remains that Roaches are unaffected by the Hellion's damage bonus and upgrade. The main concern would be how the Roach's speed matches up, because the Hellion has about twice the range, and could potentially still kite them. However, thinking about it, due to the Roach's regeneration, kiting them might not be such a good idea, because it would give them time to regenerate.

 

"For one thing why in one of the Battle Reports didn't the Terran player use hellions?"

Im gonna answer this one

BECAUSE THE BR'S ARE STUPID UNREALISTIC RIGGED MATCHES!

IHG - you think my idea of getting the hydralisk a small + against armored instead of the anti-air abbility is viable? I fell like I prefer a more all around old hydralisk (especially since it's now back to Tier 1.5), and no GtA killer. I can understand that it has to be a bit better against air, because Zerg right now can be in big trouble (no scourges), but I dont feel like it has to do more than 9-14 dmg (16 actually seems unbalanced for the low cost).