Lack of Macro

As we all know, because of MBS and automining SC2 has less macro in it than SC. I'd like to know what people think should be done in SC2's current state.
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Option 1: Leave it as it is. SC2 can do with less macro.

Option 2: Remove MBS and/or automining.

Option 3: Double Gas w/ Shutdown. Most people know what this is about. The geysers get exhausted and shut down for a while meaning you have to temporarily reassign your workers - thus forcing you to macro.

Option 4: The new rumor that was kind of confirmed in batch 48 where they mentioned new methods of macro. Like Opt. 3, this is a new way of macroing, but instead of managing penalties, you manage bonuses, and they will be unique to each race too.
According to the rumor, the Protoss get the Dark Pylon which has the ability to temporarily increase Probe speed - thus forcing you to check back at all your DP's to use the ability as often as the cooldown lets you, that way maximizing your income.
The Terran supposedly calls for a Drop Pod from the Command Center. The Drop Pod contains a "big SCV" that for a certain amount of time will gather for you. I am curious if it will be able to collect not only minerals but gas too - opening up gas heavy rushes for the good macroer. Whether it can contruct and repair also remains to be seen.
The Zerg way of macroing in this supposed build is unknown.

 

I like the race unique macro abilities, though it seems a little excessive.

I hope they keep the MBS and auto-mine, so people like me who are bad with macro can spend less time doing it and more time working on micro.

 

Well the best thing to do here is????


Terran: Call dropships to export vaspene gas, and gain a nice sum of minerals, (kind like oil trade.)

Zerg: timed overlord or overseer ability with cooldown - -Grow parasites creep, that eat the planet producing minerals, and gas on the map but can be attacked by opponents units. also the ability costs resources but for every 1 mineral or gas spent you get like 5 but need to collect it all over again.


Protoss: Warp Archon with pylon temporary droping shields of every protoss units you controll, but after the warping is compleate you get improoved pylon that has ability to gen. resources per sec. kind like place of power. Also like the regular pylon it generates field of power but instead it drains power any unit in that field is shieldless, also nothing can be build within the range... this kind of pylons motivates the player to build these pylons all over the map to gain resources faster )))

I hope you like it can`t get more MACRO than this ))))))))))

 

@VANCO.

Terran: That's not something you would always have to do. What if you got a good balance between mins and gas? What if all you have to do is move a couple workers and you do? Not enough Macro IMO.

Zerg: Cool idea but as the number of Overlords and Overseers get out hand, so will the macro. Unfair. Maybe if the ability was attached to something else.

Protoss: I don't like the sound of unlimited resources - one should always have to keep expanding for the resources in SC/SC2.

 

I've always thought that knowing what to build, when to build it, and how to use it should be more important than your skill at fiddling around with every little unit. The fight should be decided mostly by who is better at choosing the right counters, not who can click the fastest, of course that can come into play with two balanced forces.

Obviously the game shouldn't play itself, but you shouldn't have to babysit your workers. Their job is to mine so they should mine. You still have to manage how much is being harvested, but you should never have to come back to your base every 5 seconds to tell a new worker to work. I like the automine since it avoids this. I can go either way on MBS, it's simply a way to queue up units a second faster, not that bug of a deal.

As for this new thing, it seems intriguing, but you shouldn't be able to win just because you keep a better schedule. Ideally, the game should allow a player to go for a boom strategy and out resource their opponent that way, but there is nothing wrong with an ability that boost resource production. I do have to say, I like the dark pylon as a cloaking generator better than a dark pylon as a resourcing structure.

As for gas, I think it was fine in SC1. They geysers running dry meant that you would have to expand, but if you got boxed in a corner you could still build advanced units, albeit more slowly. I don't much care for the trading minerals for gas, or being able to double production by spending minerals. You should balance resource gathering by reasigning workers, not by converting one resource to another.

 

The auto split for the miners isn't perfect and I want it to stay that way because the miners all clump onto 1 mineral patch for a .5 milsecond time meaning if you split really fast instead of all mining one you gain an early advantage.

 

voted for Race Unique Macro Abilities, because i want to know how Blizzard can deal with this, also if properly put into the game it would make each race even more unique.

 

I'd like to have a combination of 2 and 4 in the sense that I'd like to see automining and MBS as a server-side option while also have race specific macro.

1 just forces current RTS trends on SC players and I don't like that. I strongly feel SC2 should be able to be set for hardcore play with appropriate options, much like how UT2004 can be set to play as if it was the classic UT.
The more options there are, the better the replayability and scope of the game.

3 is plain silly and I never understood the idea behind it. It's obvious that every player would take both of their geysers so what would the shutdown result in? Not more macro but a slower flow of gas (hint hint GM ). Plus I can't accept any kind of lore behind the shutting down of gas structures. Refinery malfunction? Extractor tired? Assimilator... what? No, just no, it makes no sense at all.

However, as I've already said in another thread, the race specific mechanics would also need to be reasonable and backed up by lore.
Large SCV: name unimaginative, and also a clear copy of the goblin shredder from WC3.
Dark Pylon: the mechanic itself is a good idea but I'd prefer it as an upgrade for the individual nexus.

And I have to disagree with BoP's third paragraph. One of the things I like about SC is that it's theoretically possible to win by either extreme macromanagement or extreme micromanagement. Finding the balance in paying attention to both and in what proportions opens up new dynamics in the game, hence upgrades should not only be made available to battle units but also to gathering units in SC2.

Additionally I would also like to see varied worker stats among the races with respect to hitpoints, damage, and armour upgrades (SCV has infantry armour wtf?), but this is to go in another thread.

 

I voted for option 4.

I like automine. When a player rallies a command center onto a mineral field, it's pretty obvious what they want to do, and it's not "having the computer play for them". Forcing them to go back just to click twice is mindless busywork, IMO.

Blizzard already had some race-specific macro-mechanics; there's warp-in, which IMO wasn't a macro mechanic until it got a production time discount; still, some people might not like it because it doesn't force you to return to base.

Mutant larvae is even better, IMO; not only does it "force" you to go back to your base, but there's a lot of thinking involved (it isn't mindless busywork) and if you don't want to use it, you don't have to (so it's not really "forcing" you to do anything). Of course, it gives a production time discount which is great for some playing styles.

Thing is, while StarCraft I is a fun game, some parts are less fun for the majority of players, and there's no problem with Blizzard using new technology to reduce the amount of time you have to spend on those aspects. Naturally Blizzard still has to take heavy macro-style players into account, and they're having some trouble with that. That's not an excuse to kill the new features, it just means the game isn't finished yet.

Different options (eg different UI games) aren't going to work. Blizzard made this quite clear at the Game Developers Conference (February 2008). They also showed they're willing to stand up to the flaming (demonstrated with the WoW sleep rules).

Addendum: Not that I support "giant SCVs". Blizzard will keep trying new mechanics until they have something that works and isn't goofy.

 

OK so terrans can lift right their center right ? so when the site is depleated they move on... to a better spot, so they are resource grabbers. they don`t need extra help, how ever if they want to get extra spot they should build extra center so they can collect from both sites right??? what I`m saying is that if they rush with their comm center and build rafineries all over the map places where SCV can`t reach but can be transported with the comm center well it will be like the protos pylons except they will be using gas to convert into minerals the ability will allow them to call dropships directly in to the rafineries and trade the gas into minerals well small portion of it, so they get instant resources without the need to collect it I`d say thats a good trade on the other hand the zerg and protos are just craving for more land but their time to obtain the resources takes longer, so there is the good balance but in the same time so so diffrent .

Zerg need to invest their resources to get more but the time to spread the creep will take long in the meen time they eat everything else because they grow faster having 3 larvae and all that, also they have abilities to pray on they opponent unit mind controling and infesting so they have plenty to do while growing their resources sort of speek..

Protoss have shield and health so they are very strong well if they want extra resources they need to week themselves 50% sort of say by dropping their shields and try to protect the pylons with 1 hand behind their back which is totaly balanced if they want extra resources that way they can concentrate on base building and deffending the precious pylons they will have the bast income not to worry about the economy yes but also the best handicap deffending their precious income with 50% weekness, I think is a good deal you want free minerals and gas well no shields then sorry

 

@VANCO.

These macro abilities are supposed to have no drawbacks. They are supposed to temporarily increase income in some race unique way, not trade gas for mins, trade shield for mins, etc. Just a pure boost of income. Something a player would never hesitate to do, no matter the current situation hence always offering a reward to the good macroer. Your Protoss suggestion is not something you'd like to do if you're under attack for example.


@Kuvasz. Don't bash the name "big SCV", it obviously will be changed, if it hasn't already. It might not even have been called that ever. Xordia just called it that.

Giving the Space Contruction Vehicle, as you pointed out vehicle armor sounds good.

 

I'm a fan of race unique stuff in general. Hence AoE 2 didn't satisfy my need for unique-ness. Anyways, this just adds more unique stuff which makes it really cool. But it'll be tough to balance obviously.

 

I don`t know about you but a good player should calculate when to use his/hers ability, that`s the point !!! take the risk if it pays off reap the benefits otherwise it`s bye bye ... just like real life so instant boost hmm... seems sterile to me, why be a worker when you need army to control do you not rather spend your time in action then simply clicking some stupit boosts!!!! it`s iritating. by the way we are playing STARCRAFT 2 not SIMCITY or AGE or any other half RTS game. Starcraft 2 is all about the action the trill the comebacks from early grave thats why everyone like`s it SO SO SOSOSOSOSO much and can`t sleep until relese date is anounced ))))))))))))) just a thought hehe!!!!! LONG LIVE THE ZERG QUEEN LONG LIVE BLIZZARD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

These abilities are not supposed to be generally calculated when to use. Situational abilities are located in combat, the place you'd rather pay attention to (such as Stimpack, Blink). Good huh? In combat, that's where you should think of when to use the abilities.

Yes, you're supposed to just spam an ability as often as possible. Too sterile for you? Win the game through micro intead. This is supposed to benefit those who like macro. Totally optional for micro-lovers.

 

Dude that comment was so random.

I guess he is talking about the fact that there doesn't need to be a automated worker thing but i disagree completely most RTS's out there have a automated worker command because its a much better aspect and SC didn't have this feature because it had come out in the beginning of the RTS world (WC3 has it along with other new gen RTS's).

This automation makes it a lot easier to keep track of things and makes things go much faster and i doubt it will kill any kind of competitive aspect of the game.

Why kill something that has worked for a long time and i also like the while aspect of the race specific macroing but like a said before it needs to be
zerg > terran > protoss to balance things because atm when it comes to building its
protoss > terran > zerg
to keep things relatively balanced in terms of how fast everyone builds

 

Essentially sums up my thoughts on the subject. I don't see any issues currently.

 

I totally agree the fact of the matter is this makes things go much quicker so games are won or lost without really worrying about what your workers are doing (unless there aren't any minerals or your base is getting attacked).

Point being as long as its balanced i see nothing wrong with the concept at all.

 

OK OK hav it your way clicking to get resources instead of devizing a plan to win the game in long term... IN fact when all resources are depleated which will happen at some point if both players are profesional unit killers, so what then ??? what`s the point of clicking then ??? not everything is in the SKILL sometimes if not most of the times it`s luck. that`s what makes you play over and over again. if I master the gathering resource skill in a week the game will become sterile and I know the outcome everytime I play it`s not fun it`s actualy iritating!! I wan`t the game to be able to supprise me every time I`m playing it... so don`t get me wrong i like your idea but it`s just not fun enough. It will take me a week to learn it and then it`s borring ...

 

I thought they were. The macro players want to switch away from battle and manage their economy. Seems to me they're appreciating the mental energy they put into this impacting the game. This thought process is quite different than how I believe most gamers play StarCraft games. That's kind of why I like mutant larvae; it's complicated to use, and at the same time not required. Being a micro-style player, I doubt I'd actually use it much.

Of course, I agree these features shouldn't be required to play the game. (I don't want to have to go back to base every time the vespene refineries shut down.)

 

I just said that those kinds of decisions can be made in combat.

Would you seriously change the metagame of SC2 for worse just to stop a stalemate? All resources running out before a GG happens next to never.

What are you talking about? Luck? What? Who would play SC2 if everything was settled with a dice?

Good luck with that... What, who are you? Iloveoov?

Lol are you kidding me? You think everything will circle around the new macro abilities?

it's not MY idea. It's supposedly Blizzards.

Yeah I know, what I meant was that if a player has a Dark Pylon selected and sees that the cooldown is ready, few situations will make him not push the button (like if he's getting worker harrassed, moved the workers away and wouldn't benefit from it right then. VANCO's Protoss macro suggestion sounded more situational).