Idea 4 Zerg Tech-tree

Ok, I didn't see this idea around, so I'm gona give it a shot:

I was checking current Terran units and Tech-tree, and randomly compared to SC1 Zerg units' interaction to them. I was thinking how would the zerg counter a reaper harassing? If the drones burrow, reapers can throw in mines and wait for them to come out. And I don't think zerglings or hydras should be able to cross cliffs after them.

One idea that came to my mind was creating a new unit, just like stalker for Protoss and Reaper for Terrans. But a better solution was found: what if zerg spire was brought to Hatchery level?

A new way of crossing obstacles would be hard to find. And only stupid ways of crossing cliffs would come to my mind for the zerg. To bring a flying unit to a lower tier, and give it the role of raider/counter to raiding would be much simpler and make the gameplay even more diverse.

Adjustments: Zerg Spire would require Evolution Chamber and Spawning pool to be built. This way it would sort of compensate for it's better mobility than reaper or Stalker with an extra structure required. But make it easier to be built, as you wouldn't have to wait for the completion of 3 structures to build it: Spawning pool + Lair + Spire, as opposed to Spawning pool + Evo. Chamber + Spire (but Evo. Chamber don't need to wait for Spawning Pool to be ready to start building). And Scourges would still have to wait Lair level.

Strategy: on this tech-tree change, the player would have the option of either going from zerglings to Hydras, an early power boost, or building an Evo. Chamber, and set up Sunken colonies for defense, while attacking with simple zerglings (and even upgrading them, while the Evo Chamber would be there). The second option would be harder at first (without the Hydras and such), but as it enables Spire building, the Zerg player would soon get it's reward with the Mutas-production. Mutas can fight landed-Vikings, Siege-tanks, Reapers, and when followed by Overlords, Banshees and Ghosts too.

All this Terran arsenal gets left behind if you get mutas, forcing the opponent to get Cobras, air-Vikings and Turrets (main defense against Muta-raids), not in this order. Marines, Ghosts and Reapers get a very significant role too, as expansion hunters, as all the uses the Ghost has! Drop pod marines next to an Overlord and snipe it. The marines' damage done before whatever is around kills them, combined to snipe (150 dmg last time I checked) can kill Overlords and open way for nuking, regardless of what's nearby (since Ghosts will still be cloaked)

For the Lair level, there would be Banelings (land blasters), Scourges (air blasters) and Queens (slowing-goo), a group that meshes together pretty well, if you consider that slowed units can't run from bombers. And Hive level I wouldn't risk guessing. So, what are your thoughts? Interesting idea?


Bonus 300 minerals for a great post

 

Hi Overling, welcome to the forums.

While your idea is rather rough, you've made a good post, so owerup:.

Bringing any air unit to Tier 1 is probably not a good idea. But giving the Zerg a definitive counter for the Terran's newfound raiding units and early firepower is. It's a bit difficult to calibrate what difficulties the Zerg will encounter in relation to the other races at this point because we haven't seen their new addition.

Of course, it's always possible to balance any unit, including an air unit in Tier 1, but simply having an air unit is usually used as a marker for the entrance of Tier 2. Mutalisk rushes are already fast enough in my opinion.

 

I think making a definite counter for pure harrasment units defeats the point. These units work by evaiding defenses/fights, everything that shoots back is a counter. They would need a own harrassment option though.

 

Welcome to the forum Overling!

Great post. owerup:

 

Excellent post. owerup:
I think this could work if balanced correctly. Would make the Zergs a fun race at harrassing enemies with mutas. It also distinguishs the Zerg from the other race.

 

nice idea,but i really can't coment further,since we know nothing of the Zerg in SC2,and what Kerrigan has done to them ^^

anyway,my bet is that the cliff-scaling unit for the Zerg will be at tier 1,and it will be very effective in countering harassing units.

 

excellent first post overling, owerup:

in the first protoss demo vid we saw masses of mutas get wiped out by a few phoenixes so mutas' power could be reduced to suit it's small description. this will allow it to be lowered in the tech tree as you suggests.

just to give an idea, instead of

100min/100gas 120hp 9dam

reduce it to

75min/75gas 90hp 7dam

 

well, it's still a bit too early coz there isn't any confirmed zerg units at the moment.

but, i think blizzard will implement cliff scaling on zerg because since zerg are insect-like creatures, they should have insect abilities, especially cliff-scaling.

 

not just for that,they need to implement it for balance reasons.it would be unfair if only the Terrans and Protoss got cliff-scaling units.

 

no it wouldn't be unfair, only terran buildings can fly, is that unfair? only zerg regenerate all their heath is that unfair?

the zergs don't necessarily need a cliff jumper to achieve balance. balance is not about giving the same mechanic to every race, that would be boring, being unique is what made starcraft so popular in the first place. balance can be achieved by giving zerg another mechanic, or enhancing an existing one, so the the overall powers of each race is balanced.

 

Really nice idea, this balances stuff out a bit, I would gove it a owerup:, but I can't yet. ;D

 

I don't think you can snipe air units. and you for got how is the protos going to counter this they don't have the best anti air until late game.

 

Wow, thanks for the warm welcome everyone!

As for the Zerg cliff-climber, perhaps that could be a feature added to the Lurker. As detection has been reduced for Terran and Protoss, cliff-climbing and attacking while burrowed would be good reasons to move the Lurker to a higher place in the tech-tree. Or a compensation for it, since the 'attack while invisible' feature would already be a reason alone, in a poor-detection world.

But the main thing that I had in mind when this idea came up was diversifying zerg strategies. This could be done if was possible to have 3 different unit types prior to upgrading your Hatchery. And I see cliff-climbing having better uses/lore for the Lurker, that can hit across mountains and for escaping when detected. As no other zerg units also attack while hiding, they can't have protection of others in order to hide their location. Upon detected, they should be able to take alternative routes. And climbing would really make ambushing an art!

Also, when the Zerg spreads across the map, one base would always have to be extra guarded, the one upgraded to Lair/Hive. If the enemy by any chance kills your Lair and Greater Spire, as it is possible to destroy Nexuses and CCs, there will be a lot of time till another base gets to enable air production once again. But for Terrans, as soon as you have a built factory they can rebuild their Spaceport. It's even likely that they'll have many of them, as unit producing buildings. And same for Protosses' Cybernetics core and Stargate. Zergs have to wait until Hatchery, almost a CC building time, AND upgrade time, till you can regain your Spire. That's too long and not dynamic.

Enabling them to rebuild everything in an easier way would make them a true plague. Having many expansions would really be made a good asset.

 

yes,i agree that the Zerg tech-tree is more "fragile",so to speak.but enabling them to rebuild without respecting the tech-tree limits would be unfair.also,upgrading more than one hatchery can't hurt your economies that much,so i personally think things are fine as they are now.

but your posts are really good owerup:

@BnechbReaker:yes it would be unfair.see,with cliff-scaling units,both Protoss and Terran received a boost in their base-raiding abilities.so,when you play against a Terran or Protoss player,you also have to keep an eye out for the cliffs surrounding your base.but when you play against a Zerg,you wouldn't have to watch out for that.i don't see how that's not unfair...

 

The "Caveman" weakness, as I like to coin it, is a risk you simply have to take as a Zerg player.

It's a balanced (if unintended) product of having such powerful production capabilities, and all from one building.

It's also a tradeoff of having the ability to change production on a dime.

 

it is unfair when you only think about cliff climbing, just like it's unfair to zerg and protoss when you consider that their building can't fly like the terrans do. but those are only one aspect of the game mechanic. as long as overall balance is achieved when you combine all the advantages and disadvantages of each race, it's fair.

the previous post is another example. Overling said it's unfair that the zergs can't replace some of their buildings as quickly, but overall the unit production mechanic is fair like joneagle pointed out

 

I think the Zerg HAVE to have cliff climbing abilities, probably in a massable type unit. I mean, the zerg need to chase down those pesky reapers and thus need a specialised unit. Maybe a dark templar styled unit that has long cool down but does devastating damage (it'll still be uncloaked but extremely fast). The zerg can't just be running up ramps and getting pwned by colossi and siege tanks....or phoenixes and predators.....

 

personally i'want the zergs to have one-way cliff jumpers only, ie only being able to jump down to a lower level but not up.

here's the thread that discuss this idea: http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=2549.0

 

That's one of the reasons why I suggested the Muta to go down on the Tech-tree. Mutas could chase the Reapers and other units beyond cliffs. And they are the weakest air units in my opinion. So they should come sooner into the game as well.

 

yeah i agree that muta should be the weakest air unit, mutas in starcraft 1 are actually very strong due to its small size, it only receives half damage from most attacks against it (all ground based anit air - hydra, dragoon, goliath, archon; all air superiority fighters - scout, wraith, cosair, valkyrie, devourer and 2 of the 3 static air defenses - missile turret, spore colony) this means against all these units the muta effectively have 240 hp!

since the damage system is revamped for starcraft2 i expected the muta will be much weakened, as it's likely to lose it's hp bonus against many of the units above