Upgrading to a hive costs 200 minerals and 150 gas, a sizable investment for a building that does absolutely nothing on it's own. What it does do, is unlock the following things. - Level 3 weapon and armor upgrades - Greater spire - Ultralisk cavern - Zergling adrenal glands research Aaaand that's all. Only four things. Doesn't really sound much like an ultimate zerg building to me. Compare it to SC1 hive, which cost the same and unlocked the following: - Level 3 weapon and armor upgrades - Greater spire (for two extra unlocked units, instead of one) - Ultralisk cavern - Defiler mound - Nydus canal - Zergling adrenal glands research (which is much, much better in SC1) That's two additional units, nydas canal, and a zergling research that is miles above the SC2 version. Also compare the SC2 hive to the SC2 lair, which costs 50/50 less and unlocks: - Level 2 weapon and armor upgrades - Hydralisk den - Infestation pit - Spire - Roach research - Baneling speed research - Burrow - Overlord speed and drop research - Overseer morph - Nydus canal The lair unlocks more than double the amount of things that hive unlocks. Am I the only one that thinks that there's way too much stuff in lair tech and not enough in hive tech? So, I have a few suggestions that might make hive tech more worthwhile: - Make nydus canal require a hive, but make it cost less to build, and have nydus worms take slightly less time to build and have more HP. - Re-implement hydralisk speed as a hive-tech research. (If that's too good then decrease their attack speed very slightly to compensate) - Increase the power of zergling adrenal gland research. +20% attack speed is pretty much nothing... should be at least 30%, maybe 40%. - Overseer research. Maybe a hive-tech research for 100/100 that increases their sight and detection range by a sizable amount. etc, doesn't have to be all of these, just a few.
Yes, it is worthwhile. That is a completely different question than should changes take place to make it more worthwhile.
I think that the ultralisk have become a pretty good unit, since it now has 500hp and the speed of a zergling from the go. Toss a couple of them into a fortification first, and your hydras and lings could easily take the rest. I find it a little to expensive to get the brood lord after all the nerfs, with the additional cost of upgrading the spire. I think it either should be cheaper to get greater spire, or a little bit better, since 225 hp is quite low for a massive unit. I know it excels with lings, roaches and ultras to cover it, but i think a brood lord goes down a little to fast to for example vikings. The upgrades are good, but not groundbreaking, so that is fair i think. I do play zerg least, so i have not great experience with tier 3, but that is my opinion about it.
The only problem with teir three is that Zerg are natural kill the enemy now type race, you have to end it quickly in begining to mid game or you will be steam rolled, so naturaly Zerg don't have the strongest late game and that is shown in the hive tech, also the reason late game Zerg usually don't use the big units is because there too expensive ad they die way to fast by a decent player who knows the counter. Like Vikings vs broodlords Thors vs ultralisks (barrage thingy) any gta unit for the currupters (as well ad them only being helpful vs mass bcs (witch rarely happens) and colossi but they are basicly sacrificed so they colossi don't murrder the rest of ur army. And then the upgrades would be useful for attack/armor, but I think we simply need to wait a little bit longer. The reason why? Well look at Terran games, they slowly changed from nothing but bio to bringing in nothing but mech and a little bio. I think it's the same for the Zerg to, used to be just roaches, now it's more lings into hydras (latter teir units) and only roaches when vs like mass marines or zealots. And protoss used to be nothing but mass warpgates and use sentry/stalker into bringing in more robo tech and more stargate tech. I think everything will eventually even out all in due time. But I agree that it's not much for hive tech, but the reason I agree is because the Terran and Protoss have fairly easy counters to the Zerg late game units (Thors immortals blinking stalkers mass pheonix etc)
+1 they should really give the hive better perks after the upgrade, quite frankly I would like a dark swarm comeback
To be honest I agree Zerg in general got nerfed too much, but essentially if you are in a mounting game, where everybody is going into tier 3 tech, you have no choice but to get a hive, because to counter those thore's It would be really nice to get some broodlords. level 3 upgrades are a necessity too, but as for ultralisks, that is my biggest problem. Why do they not even compare with other tier 3 units? It's stupid. I do think the hive should have more reasons for researching, but in the end it is a necessity either way.
"you have to end it quickly in beginning to mid game or you will be steam rolled" Says who? If I were you, I wouldn't get caught up in that sort of thought process because that is not entirely how the game works. As far as the hive is concerned, you should let your scouting make that decision for you. If you see your opponent making the preparations to go tier 3, then you can either take advantage of it by preventing them and possibly ending the game there if you have the edge (you should have some sort of edge, unless you are also going tier 3 from the start). Also, you can just match their tier 3 and work your way from there, lean back on a strong economy and go for the old fashioned "my big *** army beat your big *** army" Or, if they aren't going tier 3, just ignore it completely and take advantage of some of the great tier 2 zerg units with which you can beat them with and wear them down. All in all, I think the hive should be looked at as something that is useful in certain situations, not a "must have". The second you look at the game as a list of things you absolutely do no matter what, such as "i must win early" or "i must build a hive" you limit yourself by not being able to react or change your strategy at will
I was meaning to say that the Zerg are naturals at that, just like Terran are naturals at the middle of a match and Protoss are at the end. But yes that isn't completely how the game is and mostly depends on gameplay. But that means naturaly you won't be quite as up to par unless it's a stale mate the entire game.
Ive been using hive tech more ever since the beta resumed (phase 2). Esp against terran, getting a hive is useful. What I've done recently was: - Muta harass ASAP, and don't let them expand. Also, it forces some players to waste money on anti-air. - Baneling bust to either win, or give them a good scare. - Tech to ultras, 2nd baneling bust, run in with 2-3 ultralisks, followed by a few more banelings for any light units. I also like to throw in some zerglings to run straight to their scv's.
hmm, I guess if you can get the mutas out fast enough (therefor at a lower level (no offense im not a pro either)) then this could easily work, do you expand at all? cuz going for 2-3 expos with this build would basicly tear them apart with pure zerg macro when they have very little. Does this work well against zerg as well? cuz they would have some queens up to prevent any real damage until you have at least a small force, and by then they can easily counter attack or prevent any more muta harras with hydras and sporecrawlers and expand and over run you. (in other words what races has this been most effective against?)
I'm not that great either, haha. But yes, I do expand. Once my mutas come out, I expand (but first I check if my opponent is coming). I also have a couple of spine crawlers and some speedlings to prevent any early harassment or pushes. Typically, you won't be able to get to Ultralisks all the time. It just depends how your opponent reacts and how fast. Also, on how much you can multi-task. Constant harassment + macro isn't a very easy thing, haha >_> As for ZvZ, not really I guess. I've have never teched to Hive when going ZvZ so far.
That alone makes it worth while. Dont forget you get Brood Lords from the upgrade, and they are especially later on in the game match winners. Plus if you're upgrading (which you should do) roaches, hydralisks and your queens with lvl3 spit-dmg and lvl3 carapace does help man
Yes teir three opens the upgrades to you so that you can be a stronger army which will at least even you out with the enemy if they get all 3 upgrades as well, another thing about zerg is that all units on the ground of upgrades and all air has upgrades instead of each teir having upgrades. So instead of having to get bio upgrades/mech upgrades/or air upgrades you can get them all in one place for a medium price rather then all over the place (hiden fees you could say) so Zerg don't have to devot much to get those upgrades were (even though terran/ toss will be getting there tech upgrades) but if you counter them there units with upgrades then they will have to counter your units in time and get those upgrades to keep at par with your army, but if that happens to you, you won't have to get the different tech upgrades, (and air isn't very viable at this point in time, but I'm sure when people finaly begin to explore Zerg more they will find that Zerg air is still of a force to be rekoned with)
So...be happy that we have so much in T1 and T2, and that T3 is just for level 3 upgrades and BLs. It's great to have such diversity at our fingertips without a Hive, I think.
i think we need some better anti air units i mean to only good anti air units we have are corrupters (wich suck in my opinion) and hydralisk but they can just get melted away by colossus and zealotsD:
If you have trouble with AA, just make more. You need enough units than what others have and there's just no other way usually.
Dark Swarm + Baneling madness INC! God that would be so fun to march a line of banelings under the cover of DS past a Terran with no hellions, typing "excuse me, coming through!" all the while. Oh **** son, did I just completely rape your base?
I rarely ever get the hive. Heck, I rarely even get the infestor pit since I can never use infestors to great effect.
When you get a hive and greater spire, you can make brood lords, which are devastating and extremely effective on photons and missile turrets definately worthwhile IMO.
