Hatchery/Lair/Hive Discussion

I have been thinking that the Lair and Hive upgrades should offer some sort of mechanics. It doesn't really make sense that Lair/Hive just offer more HP and new tech for the units. For a Zerg player, you always see a bunch of Hatcheries and only 1 Hive or Lair per game. It just seems too plain. If the Lair/Hive provides additional mechanics, players would get to choose whether they build additional Hatcheries, or perhaps, upgrade their existing Hatchery to a Lair/Hive. It provides more variety and strategy for the Zergs.

A lot of people hate the Queen been limited to 1 per player. One of my idea is that perhaps, you can build addition queen once you have a Lair. Therefore, you get your first queen right off the bat. But you can get additional queens when you have a 2nd Lair. So for example, if you have 5 Lairs, you can build 5 Queens. Of course, the Queens stats would have to be rebalanced in order for this to work.

Some others ideas that I have are that both Lair/Hive provides some sort of defensive mechanic. You can immediately spawn some units when you have a Lair/Hive and they can help you defend. But they have a timer (like the Broodlings). Once the timer goes up, they are gone.

Other idea is increasing the larvae once you have Lair/Hive.

Anyways, those are just some of the ideas that can think of.
My point is, I would like to see the Lair/Hive serve some sort of unique mechanic that's totally different from the original Hatchery. It would provide more unique ways to play the Zerg.

Please post if you have any ideas for the Lair/Hive that you think can be implemented to the world of SC2.

 

First off, there should only ever be a limit of one Queen per player. A lot of people think there should be more than one because otherwise it will effect gameplay too drastically, but the fact is that no-one's been given a chance to play them yet. People are always referring to the gameplay videos of matches between Zerg and Protoss where the Zerg appear to be at a huge disadvantage because of the Queen. This is not the case. It's a completely system to any that StarCraft has had before so not only are there likely to be a few bugs and imbalances, but it's new to everyone. The people who have played it have commented that it will take some getting used to. Also, despite gameplay being the major thing, it still needs to be balanced with lore. The current Queen has a genuine, bona fide 'Queen' feel to it, unlike the Queens in StarCraft1. Each Zerg colony is a super-organism, much like an ant colony or bee hive. There is one, and only one, Queen in each of these super-organisms. You'll never see a ant colony or bee hive with two or more Queens, so why would the Zerg have more? Besides, allowing players to have more Queens will not only make the Zerg less unique, keeping in mind that StarCraft is supposed to be all about three unique races, but they'd be used for roles other than defence, which just wouldn't be right. The Queen is the sole defender in a swarm of aggressive and, above all, offensive attackers. She watches over and manages her Hive, much like a spider in its web. This allows all other Zerg units to be designed, almost exclusively, for offence, which is what they're all about.
Sorry, that rant went on for a lot longer than anticipated, so I'll just briefly comment on the rest.
I'd like the Lair and Hive to have more defining mechanics. As you said, all Zerg players end up having one Hive and a tonne of Hatcheries, which is really plain. This mechanic should definitely be a defensive one, after all, it pretty much has to be. I've heard of some other ability of the Queens, although with all the different rumours of all the different builds it's hard to know whether it's correct or not, where is lays a bunch of eggs, presumably around the Hive, which spawn when the Hive, or perhaps Hive Cluster, is attacked. Its existence and name vary depending on where I look and it could possibly have come from two different explanations of the same thing. It's either called the Sunken Cluster or Swarm Clutch. I know one of them already exists as the Zerg's static defence, I assume that's the Sunken Cluster, but the other might involve these eggs. Whether it exists or not, I think it's an ability worthy of the Lair or Hive, or perhaps only usable on the Lair or Hive. I guess it would kinda works like your 'immediately spawn some units to help you defend' idea.
I love the idea of increasing the number of larvae for the Lair and Hive, even if it is just by one larvae per upgrade. It makes perfect sense and would make the Zerg more swarmable.
Here's an idea of my own. Perhaps they could take a bit of a more old fashioned approach and make tier 2 units only producible from a Lair and tier 3 units only producible from a Hive. The Hatchery is pretty much all production buildings merged into one, so why not make Hatcheries a Command Centre crossed with a Barracks, the Lair a Command Centre crossed with a Barracks and Factory, and the Hive a Command Centre crossed with a Barracks, Factory and Starport? It would mean that players would have to upgrade their Hatcheries if they wanted to produce more late-game units.
Lastly, I was just thinking that perhaps Poison Creep should be given to the Lair or Hive instead and the Queen should be given another ability. I feel that it suits the Lair/Hive much more as they're all rooted into the ground and are more likely to be able to poison the Creep than a Queen would.
Anyway, again I've gone on for longer than I wanted to. In short, I definitely think that Lairs and Hives should have some unique mechanics.

 

I've mentioned this before also. But definitly not the Multiple Queen one, it just ruins the whole lore and function of the Queen.
I wouldn't mind 1 extra Larva per evolution, making Zerg even more dangerous late game as they can be early game.
As for any other ideas I have no idea but I am for addional mechanics when evolving into a Lair and such.

 

First Itza please for gods sake USE BLANK LINES in your posts so they are easier to read

Second if noone has had a chance to play queens how can you say havoing more than one would be too much? In addition to that your example of insect hives isn't alid since Zerg aren't bugs so why should they be forced to use the same structure? Also why not look at each base as its own hive that can get its own queen?

I like the idea of multiple queens on higher tiers so you have some redundancy and don't have to mever your queen fore every little thing since you will be able to have a few hopeufllu most of them will be in the place you need them to be. They would need some toning down so you can't use them for an assualt force though.

One thought I had was that the lair and or hive would get some kind of defenses. The lair could be a detector and the hive could add an attack. That would help defend the centralized production Zerg have.

Also an increased larva count would be nice though cost balancing would need to be made so that getting 3 larva from upgrading your hatchery costs less than building a new one. If the hatchery is cheaper than upgrading for more larva then the only time yoou will upgrade for more larva is if you are in a space crunch

 

I'm sort of neutral about the Queen been a 1 per game or massable type of unit. Whatever works in the end, I support Blizzard.

Another mechanic that I think could work for the Lair/Hive tech is that both the Lair/Hive tech can produce some sort of advanced Larvae. These advanced Larvae can then morph into a unit that normal larvae's can't. Of course, these units would be a bit more powerful then your usual ones. But they would be harder to get plus massed because they require the Lair/Hive to have the advanced larvae.

So basically, you will have 2 new units (1 for each Lair and Hive). I really don't have any ideas what kind of units should take place for these advanced larvae but I do believe that this mechanic would really work out.

It makes more sense then having Lair/Hive produce more larvae simply because people will find which one is more effective. People will find out whether building additional hatcheries will yield faster unit production or just upgrading their exisiting hatcheries to Lair/Hive.

In the end, having advanced larvae would create more choices for players.

 

When did I say that having more than one Queen would be too much? I said that gameplay still has to be balanced with lore. Lore shows that the Zerg are an insectoid race. They might not be insects, but they are most definitely insects. Insect colonies like the Swarm's colonies have their own, individual Queen.
About each base being its own hive, I forget where I read this, but it stated that each Zerg building was an organ and together they were a single organism. Therefore each Hatchery would just be another organ in the organism and not be its own hive.
The idea of having multiple Queens makes the Zerg less unique. No other race works like they do at the moment but allowing players to have more destroys that. It's not as though the Queen has to be there every time your base is under attack. She's able to build all the defences and move on.
@ Ych9. Your idea about advanced larvae is similar to my earlier idea about splitting up the tiers into Hatchery, Lair and Hive. Making it that only Zerglings, Roaches, etc, can be built at a Hatchery, only Zerglings, Roaches, Hydralisks, Mutalisks, etc, can be built at the Lair and only Zerglings, Roaches, Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Ultralisks, etc, can be built at the Hive. It would force players to upgrade to Lairs and Hives if they want to produce more tier 2 or 3 units.

 

I personally like the idea of one Queen because, not only is it more authentic as previously mentioned, but it also limits their power. Imagine being up against a Zerg player where every minor base has one to provide it's healing abilities, defensive structures, etc. Even without multiple Queens, we're likely to see it in action all the time, when being wielded by a skilled player, with the use of the Nydus Worm.

 

Just to point out, Lair and Hive have always had additional mechanic besides advancing Zerg the tech tree. Lair and Hive both offer increase rate of larva generation. Lair is faster than Hatch, and Hive is faster than Lair. However, in practical application, it is better to just build another Hatch instead of upgrading existing ones.

By building additional Hatches, you increase your unit production just the same without investing gas, also you increase a greater amount of total Zerg building HP by building an additional Hatch rather than upgrading to Lair or from Lair to Hive. Each additional Hatch is 100% additional HP for 300 minerals, upgrading to Lair is only a 44% increase in HP for 150 minerals and 100 gas. Going from Lair to Hive is even less for 38.9% HP increase for the price of 200 minerals and 150 gas. Hive compared to an additional Hatch is the same 100% increase in your total HP pool, however, it's 300 minerals VS 350 minerals and 250 gas. So, as you can see, unless you're playing on money maps and you just can't get your mineral and gas count to go down, it is almost always better to build additional Hatches instead.

Increasing max larva count VS increasing larva regen rate is even worse. Because you only take advantage of the higher larva max when your production has been idle for a while. You see the benefit just once in a while, but you're paying a hefty price for it.

IMO, to justify upgrading multiple Hatches up to Lair and/or Hive, you'll need a lot more incentive because cost of upgrade will always be signifcant due to the fact that Lair and Hive serve as tier caps for each of Zerg's tech tiers. So what to do? Keep the increased larva regen rate, bring on the increased larva cap(+1 per level), and then something else.

My suggestion to that something else is, give Lair spikes like Orc buildings damaging melee units a tiny amount each time they attack it. For Hive, it gets the spikes, and also the ability to attack units at range. Something like the Sunken, or perhaps even Sunken plus Spore at the same time. IMO, that still just barely even the stakes against resources spent, because gas investment is always an important factor.

About the Queen, I sort of agree with Hex in that I would like to see it remain as 1-per-player. However, I'm not entirely comfortable with the fact that the construction of all Zerg static base defense comes from a single unit. Looking past early-game, in situations where you just barely held off an assault, all static D is wiped out, you lost most of your units, and you lost your Queen. While the enemy pumps more units to get ready to finish you off, you must still wait for your Queen to be rebuilt, then it can rebuild some base defense. It is a timing advantage for the pressing player. In days of old, you can take some existing drones to rebuild towers while you put all your larvae into producing combat units.

Things look even worse if you took heavy loss in Ovies, the odds are stacked against you. Good luck coming back from that. I would like the Queen to remain 1-per-player, however, I would rather it not be the sole producer of Zerg static D. Give it other abilities, make it unique, but don't make it Zerg's Achilles heel.

 

@Remy on the queen
I have considered that and I think maybe they should give you a max of 3 or so but its lined to hatceries so you have to have 3 hatcheries to have 3 queens.

An alternative method is you get a second queen when you tech to lair and a third when you hit hive. It could possibly be the tech building insteado the building and in that case second queen at pool and third at the building that is replacng the Queens Nest.

That way Queen won't be spamable as attackn units but you have ome redundancy so if one queen dies you still have one left to rebuild your defenses in a pinch while you replace the other(s)
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In adittion to giving Hives a attack perhaps lairs and hives ould improve buildings near them.
Have the presences of a Lair improve HP regen of buildings and a Hive causes units to heal faster near them. To encourage multiple lairs/hives have the bonuses stack.

 

Your proposal would satisfy my concern of the Queen being a liability to Zerg defense, personally. 3 max, should be flexible enough to keep things from getting crazy.

About the Lair/Hive mechanics that you bring up, I would rather stay away from any "aura" type of mechanic. Cloaking field is slightly different in that it is not really an AoE buff, but a tactical mechanic applied over an AoE. Plus, it was already in SC1, so I would count that as an exception.

Also, I would rather that Zerg get their increased HP regen just from Creep in general. I think that's what most Zerg players have wanted for a long time, and I personally believe should've been the case in SC1. Zerg also arguably benefit the least from any type of healing mechanic, so instead of a great incentive, it would just be something nice to have around, another reason to have it for Creep instead. But I'm not say we should rule out any type of passive mechanic altogether, just perhaps some more brain storming?

I've given the idea of Spikes(damage returned to melee units per attack), and I think it needs to something really small. Something around 1~2 damage returned per attack received. If we do some math based on SC1 stats, a Lair taken down by only Zerglings, it already returns a significan amount of damage even at 1 damage returned per attack received. A Lair had 1800 HP and 1 armor, a Zergling has 5 base damage, 4 after damage mitigation from 1 Lair armor. That's 450 hits from Zerglings(not even counting Lair's HP regen during the process), which is 450 damage dealt back to Zerglings while it gets killed even at just 1 damage returned per attack received. That's 12+ Zerglings killed in the process just from the Spikes alone. That's not bad. And for a Hive, it'll be 625 damage returned to Zerglings with no upgrades, plus damage from its Sunken-like attack mechanic.

While the numbers may seem impressive, almost overly so in the Zergling example, I don't think that it's quite OP. Because once the Zerglings upgrade to 1 armor, the damage dealt is cut in half(based on how mitigation and zero-damage-hits were handled in SC1). Also, other units that start out with 1 armor(Zealots for example) only receive 1 damage on every other hit. Not to mention Zealots deal their damage with high damage per hit over a longer cooldown, it's much less damage altogether. A Lair taken down by SC1 Zealots would take 113 hits(again, disregarding regen for the sake of simplicity), but only deal back 56 damage due to Zealot's 1 armor. That's not even a single SC1 Zealot's HP worth of damage returned. But it's still not nothing.

So after thinking things through a bit more, I think the Lair could return 1 damage per melee attack received, and the Hive could upgrade the Spikes to return 2 damage per melee attack received plus a Sunken-like ranged attack. The Hive's Sunken-like Tentacle attack should be one where it deals very high damage per hit but have a very long cooldown. The reason behind this is, Spikes already effect Zerglings much more than they do other units(because most, if not all other units are better than Lings stat wise, even SCVs in some respects).

If the Hive's Tentacle Attack deals low damage per hit with a shorter cooldown, it will only be more effective VS Zerglings than other units like the Zealot. With a high damage and long cooldown, each little Zergling can be one-shotted(the long cooldown will balance this), so it doesn't hurt Zerglings any more so because Zerglings are numerous and a big one-shot attack would have damage wasted(damage per hit higher than a Zergling's max HP) against Zerglings. VS Zerglings, fast repetition of low damage attacks(lower than Ling's max HP or close) are more efficient(splash and AoE is the same principle in a way).

Having a high damage per hit Hive Tentacle Attack will be a better deal on more resilient units(things better than Zerglings stat wise) because you see a bigger chunk of the result up front(even though there is a much longer wait between attack) while there is less damage going to waste on killing blows overall. This way, Spikes will deal with lesser melee units, while Hive Tentacles will deal with greater units.

I think around 50~65 damage per hit would be adequate for the Hive Tentacles. This might seem like a lot, but keep in mind that I'm talking about BIG cooldown, around SC1 Siege Tank cooldown, if not longer. And depending on cooldown and balancing, I think perhaps each Hive could have 2 Tentacles attacking separate targets simultaneously, but that's not really something to think about right now. But I think at least a simultaneous Spore attack against air wouldn't really be out of the question.

 

Why can we only have one queen but terrans can have unlimited nomads. The nomad is a detector AND makes the little turrents? So whats the difference between a queen and what she dose? I mean her abilitys arnt even althat amazing to be honest. Posion creep??? Really, that dosent sound all that important if shes shot down by tanks or carriers or any air unit for that matter. if there going to limit the queen i think they should cut some of here current abilitys and make it 1 per Hatchery

 

One thing I have to point out about the spikes is the fact that it is biased.

The Terran's won't take any damage returns at all while the Protoss and Zerg will be damaged. The Zerg have it worse since the Ultralisk specializes in building destructon whereas the rest of the base levelers are ranged

Heres an idea
Lair gets a melee attack and can hit ground units.
Hive gets a ranged spore attack nd can hit ground and air targets. also gets more damage

 

i had to edit what i said before about the queen to be more specific about my thoughts

 

Yea, I didn't forget about the Terrans. I personally don't really think it's a big deal. Most of TvZ is not decided on T units vs Z static-D anyway. The biggest problem will still be Siege Tanks knocking at Zerg's door, no defensive mechanic for the Lair/Hive would really help with that, unless we get really crazy with it. Orc building spikes were less effective vs certain races, but that was never a big deal, I don't it will be for SC2 either. In SC, all races play differently when facing against different races. Certain units and abilities become more or less useless vs one race while it's really good vs another, that's just SC. Same deal here IMO.

About the Ultralisk bit, is that just your opinion on what Ultra was in SC1? Or have they changed the Ultra to deal more damage vs buildings in SC2 now? In SC1 Ultras were tanks, and that's it, period. You can kinda stretch it a bit and argue that they're kinda like "battering rams" in siege situations, but that's as far as Ultras go. Actual base leveling is done by all other Zerg units. SC1 Ultra had pathetic damage output vs lesser Zerg units. Just 2 t3 Zerglings outdamage an Ultralisk, and 2 Lings aren't exactly even close to being equal food and resource cost with an Ultra. VS buildings doesn't change anything, because the highest armor a building had is 1, some have 0. Sunken was the sole exception that had 2, but still, no big deal.

If Ultra's are made to be specifically better VS buildings in SC2, that only makes it better for Zerg against Spikes. Spikes will only have minimal effectiveness VS Ultras.

I also think that current Queen abilities aren't all that impressive. If it is to take up a caster spot on the Zerg lineup, it needs to have better abilities. Producing static-D aren't really true abilities, have minimal benefits for the Zerg, and actually require balancing so it doesn't hurt the Zerg by being a huge liability instead. Queen needs some improvement.

 

The Ultralisk gets a small damage bonus against buildings. Nothing major, but a bonus none-the-less. Also I think you guys are forgetting about Banelings. They're supposed to to something in the vicinity of 190 damage, they don't damage nearby units and evolve from Zerglings. Spikes would have no effect against them as they're suicide units and the tentacle would only be able to take out two at the very most before the Banelings reach the Hive.
However, as much as I like these suggestions and how effective they should, I still believe that the Lair or Hive should benefit the Zerg players economy or production. Defence is still good, and having a few Hives around your base would really help the survivability of your Sunkens/Spores/Clutches, but I really don't see it coming from the Hive.
Remy was right with the increase in the max number of larvae. It wouldn't be that beneficial. I'd still prefer my idea of making units that require a Lair or Hive have to be built at a Lair or Hive. This means that Mutalisks could not be produced at Hatcheries, Ultralisks could not be produced at Lairs or Hatcheries, etc. Feel free to criticise or challenge it, but it would force players to evolve them if they want to produce more higher tier units, similarly to how a Terran or Protoss player has to build more StarPorts or StarGates if they want to produce more flying units.

 

Hex, you realize that would actually be an immense nerf on the Zerg for nothing in return right? Having a streamlined production is a very important part of Zerg's racial identity. It's almost the most important factor keeping Zerg unique(when played) from P and T. I believe "similar to Terran or Protoss" is the very reason why it should not be.

SC is all about unique races, exact reason why they didn't add a fourth. That might have worked in WC3(which made it suck, all races had the same Hatch -> Lair -> Hive tier structure), but it is not for SC. As far as I can see, Zerg is a damn good distance behind both Protoss and Terran currently, having had way more nerfs and little positive additions. More unreasonable nerfs for no apparent reason that even goes against one of the building blocks of SC game design, is really not what the Zerg needs right now.

Glad to hear that Ultras got SOMETHING now. It's nothing spectacular, but oh well, it's a start. And I don't think Lairs and Hives should be expected to deal with Banelings at all. The additional mechanics are just there to supplement everything else, as small bonuses serving as incentives for evolving any additional Lair/Hive at all. You shouldn't expect static-D to be the primary source of your base defense, let alone against units like the Baneling. It's unreasonable, just like you wouldn't expect Lair/Hive to fend of Siege Tanks.

 

It wouldn't have to be a nerf, not if they made it cost less. To compensate they could make the buildings that enable to evolution of Hatcheries into Lairs and Lairs into Hives because players usually only have one of each anyway, but you're right about the uniqueness. It still wouldn't be the same as the Terran or Protoss, but it's getting there. I more meant 'similar to Terran of Protoss' as in something like, if Zerg want to take out buildings they'll build Banelings or Ultralisks, similar to how Terran build Siege Tanks or Battlecruiers. But you're right. It would make the Zerg less unique.

About the Banelings, I never meant that it wouldn't be fair because the Hives will be useless against them, I meant to say that even if it does look imbalanced against Zerglings, they're able to evolve into Banelings which would be extremely effective against a Hive. Without meaning to relate Zerg to the Terran again, it'd be similar to how Siege Tanks in Assault Mode would be ineffective at attacking a base and they'd be likely to take heavy losses, but in Siege Mode they'd be extremely effective. The Zerglings would be ineffective and be killed off too quickly be the Hive, but Banelings would easily be able to take it out.

 

Yeah, I would rather keep that uniqueness. Zerg hasn't been left with much man, lol.

But Zerg's streamlined unit production also serves as a weakness in a way, which I'm not at all against having, or any other weakness for the Zerg for that matter so long as it is balanced on the big picture. But anyway, back to what I was saying, it makes Zerg the most susceptible to specific attacks on tech reqs. Meaning, it is easiest to prevent a specific type of unit from being produced for Zerg, because all combat units have tech req buildings separate from their production buildings(which is universally the Hatch/Lair/Hive for Zerg). Protoss and Terran are less vulnerable in that sense since their unit production buildings(rax, fact, port, gate, robo facility, stargate) also serve as tech req buildings for some of their combat units.

I quite like having that weakness as a Zerg player to be honest. And I think it's all the more reason to keep that mechanic unique to Zerg, because it serves as a balancing factor.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you on what you meant with Banelings. I completely missed your point, and it was a good one. I apologize. I think it's good that Zerg will have Banelings vs Spikes. I'm glad you pointed that out Hex. I was thinking that perhaps Roaches were the only good thing new to Zerg, you reminded me that there were Banelings, thanks. Now I feel just an ant's piss amount less depressed about the Zerg situation.