Hatchery as a Universal Building

I deleted the last post as I felt like it went nowhere.

It's obvious that the zerg are the odd race out in function. What makes zerg different? It's obvious once known. It's that the hatchery is a universal building.

It is where zerg produces economy, it is emphasized in the tech tree, it is where zerg produces offense, it is where zerg shares it's production with food production itself, overlords.

But there is a slight problem and flaw. It does not share with defense.

I always speak in reference to starcraft 1 and will do so until sc2 is out, but this still can very well apply in sc2.

Because zerg has to share it's production with offense AND food(overlord), having to sacrifice for every single drone for every single building becomes illogical.

Starcraft follows the pattern of two same(or similar), one different. However, when it comes to the way each race makes defense, they are all unique. The way in which zerg makes defense is a burden because it is unlike either the terran or protoss.

Terran only needs 1 bunker because it can be repaired by multiple scv. The protoss warp in offense with no additional penalty.

The problem is that the hatchery is not truly a universal building, if it is going to be a universal building, it cannot be half assed. The hatchery must be capable of throwing up defense anywhere on the creep, with out the sacrifice of a drone, plain and simple.

This would make the zergs function for defense production the same, or similar to protoss, while terran would be the different. But think about it, this way of making defense is still different enough to be unique from the way protoss makes defense.

No longer would zerg have to individually click out drones and click an additional two keys, wasting time and economy.

All you would do is click your hatchery and then hit one hot key, and throw the creep colony up anywhere on the creep.

Think about it in terms of the effectiveness of using defense as an offense with either terran or protoss. A bunker rush is doable, a photon push is viable. But a hatchery rush with sunks? it's out of the question. You know the game is not balanced right when proxy hatch defense is not a viable option.

If blizzard doesn't want to do that, then I think that they should bypass the drone state of the larvae, and make zerg defense a producible building straight out of a larvae.

You would move a larvae slowly to the desired location click the hotkeys B, C, and then it would just naturally mutate in to a creep or defense structure at that location.

With zergs defense being mobile in sc2 and if you want the hatchery to truly be a universal building, then considering zerg defense more as a unit and making it a choice in larvae mutation rather then drone mutation would make perfect sense.

 

But then the zerg would not be thematically balanced.

The zerg are supposed to be reactionary, and can half build a creep colony for half the price for the purpose of reacting to situations accordingly.

Surely you are not suggesting that the zerg become less reactionary?

 

I stopped reading right about there.

If you're going to completely disregard everything the Zerg have gained in StarCraft II - Spawn Larvae, Creep Tumors, uprootable defensive structures (which cost 25-50 minerals less than their SC:BW counterparts) - then this discussion belongs in the Original StarCraft section of the forum.

 

i still don't get the point of these posts. it's like blizzard (and most SC fans) have this mental image of what races should be. your image is different- so instead of figuring out what other people identify as each race's unique characteristics, you just say the game is all wrong and everything should be changed to fit your opinion.

never mind the game balance, which (for SC1) is nearly perfect. or the characteristics of the race, which has been produced by gameplay and strategies of players over the past decade, get in the way. no, everyone else is just wrong.

NO. you have a flawed premise. that's just a vague statement that can be applied any which way to whatever race or unit you want to talk about. let's take the basic army unit for each race: marine, zergling, zealot.

oh! terrans are the "one different" race here, because they have range! no, no, no, zerg are the "one different" race because they get 2 for 1 in production! that's wrong too. The protoss are obviously the "one different" because they cost 100 minerals, the others cost only 50! give me ANY 2 units in the game and i'll probably be able to find similarities between 2 of them and a difference for the third.

each race is unique, quit trying to force your flawed theory into starcraft. on top of that, you're trying to change starcraft because it doesn't fit your theory, instead of changing your theory so that it fits starcraft. good day. and move this to the SC Original forum.

 

1. The Terran has the most efficient economy due to the mule, which is another story. But scvs must be taken off the line to make buildings.

2. Protoss has the most expensive units.

3. The zerg can make 5 drones in one pop while the other races can't.

The other races don't have to sacrifice any mining time to create psi.

Your argument would be more inclined for BW if anything. but even then its not like zerg's were so imba they never made any OSLs or MSLs.

 

While you guys all make a good point, AtlasMech brought up a semi-decent idea.
I havent though about this too much, but how about letting the hatchery spawn the spore/spine crawlers? maybe make them cost 150 minerals but they spawn quickly? Just a thought =)

 

I was just mostly concerned with the hatchery following through as being a universal building as it is with everything else but defense in sc1.

In sc2, zerg have the queen, so it would seem that defense has been incorporated in to the hatch.

However, we were talking about the issue that gets some attention on here time and time again, and that is if whether zerg "HAVE" to expand or not.

Whether zerg "HAS" to expand isn't really the issue. The problem is that zerg can't 1 base tech like the other races. It seems they are forced to make a hatchery.

It seems obvious that in order to allow zerg to 1 hatch tech that as soon as spawning pool is complete it would allow the main hatch to spawn larvae twice as fast. Not for the other hatcheries, but at least that initial hatch. However, perhaps the queen will be enough to resolve this issue with the capability of spawning larvae.

I'm still skeptical on whether or not this spawn larvae from the queen is actually going to be effective enough to correct this problem.

It's pretty interesting how blizzard corrected this problem with the university of the hatchery, and the production of larvae... A queen as a defensive unit to spawn larvae. Makes a lot of sense actually...


I mean, is it now safe to say that SC BW was actually in fact imbalanced?

 

No. It is safe to say that Starcraft is considered one of the, if the THE, most balanced RTS ever made.

No, even that isn't enough.

It is safe to say that Starcraft is THE MOST BALANCED GAME EVER. It was played competively for years, and 12 years after it's release it has been decided: That **** be balanced.

You already made one post on this and got shot down, so now you've made another one. And in the new one, you have once again taken your stupidity to a new level and refused repeatedly to listen or consider anything anyone else has said.

This seems 'obvious' to no one but you. Zerg can already 1 hatch tech. Having the main hatch spawn twice as fast is pointless and unnecessarily confusing.

And there is a no 'perhaps the queen will be enough'. The queen IS enough. It has been decided it is a good, balanced mechanic that makes Zerg unique and useful.

Last but not last, zerg does not have to expand, I have no idea where your getting this from.

I leave you with this:

WHICH IS..

You can't even make up your mind what your talking about.

 

THANKYOU!

Not only is this thread a dup; it's ridiculous.

 

The origonal poster says the 3 races being totally dofferent in form and function is a bad idea. But this idea of difference is exactly what SC and SC2 is based around. If you want to play a game where all the races/factions are clones of each other go play WC3 or Command and Conquer or one of the Age of Empires games.

The total difference though well balanced nature of the races in SC 2 is that sets it apart from all the other RTS out there. If you don't like the main parts of SC2 then maybe SC2 is not the game for you. Go play another RTS and stop trolling.

 

This stuff has to be a troll. Nobody can play the game for any length of time and think this stuff.

 

I think Atlas is interested in reviewing and redesigning the thematic relationships of SC1, rather than being concerned about the actual balance of either game.

I think that's why he's posting this in SC2 discussion, because he is thinking how the sequel could be.

 

lol, Irony ninja is just plucking out quotes to make me sound ridiculous. At least most people aren't stupid and can see that.

And to the 8th ark. Having 3 races that are totally unique in function would be the equivalent of you being God and coming up with 3 colors which function totally unique from each other in order to create light.

You can't have three totally unique functions. It follows a pattern of two similar, one different.


Oh, and btw. It's like I said, the issue is in whether or not zerg have to make another hatch right away. Zerg can't 1 hatch tech. When terran or protoss make a barrack, or a gateway, not only are they climbing the tech tree, but at the same time increasing their production.

Starcraft broodwar is actually very flawed in balance for zerg. Zerg weren't truly the unique race in function because their hatchery was not truly universal. It didn't include defense, and now we see that zerg can make a cheap defense structure, the queen, and the queen spawns additional larvae.

You can't say that starcraft bw was the most balanced game because it virtually the only game of its type. Sure, being as complex as it is, it achieved a high balance. But function wise it was very flawed.

Sc2 will make SC bw look pathetic, as it already does with the few basic changes.

 

I would very much like to see your response to post #4, which expresses my opinion (and probably others') perfectly.

 

Well you completely ignored my points which make perfect sense above.

As far has his post.

-I never said that starcraft was "All wrong", realize that flaws make huge differences in a game, and because starcraft is indeed a pattern fractal of balance representing 2 similar 1 different on the micro level with specific units to represent that, and on the general level of function with the terran and protoss being the similar races with zerg being the odd race out, having such a flaw on the macro level of balance does make a very big difference as illusive as it is.

-Just because starcraft got big in Korea, doesn't mean the game is balanced. It's all been made in to a big production by blizzard, and the coverage of the games is biased to prove that the game is balanced. Sure, there are going to be games where zerg wins... but even in the game of rock paper scissors, the losers get lucky, sometimes.

-Finally, the races are not totally and equally unique from each other, zerg is in fact the odd race out.

It is such common sense that it is the first thing to take note of as an observation of zerg.

http://sc2armory.com/game/zerg

"The zerg are a race entirely unlike the terrans or the protoss."

Common sense

 

nein. you're looking for patterns where they don't exist. i'll provide you with ANOTHER example: supply buildings in SC1. Zerg are obviously different, because theirs is a flying unit! no no no, terrans are the different ones because theirs provides no function other than food. it's the only pure-supply building. Nah, protoss are different, because it is the only supply building that can affect buildings as well as units!

you are dead-set in seeing a pattern that isn't there, then you complain that the pattern isn't obvious enough.

no, it's balanced because Blizzard has been fine-tuning the game for the past DECADE.

of course they're not totally unique. they all mine minerals and gas. They all have roughly 3 tech levels. They all have basic ground/air armor/weapons upgrades. They all have ranged units and melee units that make up their army.... WAIT A MINUTE! TERRANS are the odd race out! they have no melee units!

because, at first glance, they make the ground purple and the buildings bleed. after you play for a bit, holy nuts, terran buildings can fly and they have NO melee units (other than the SCV). wow.

i will repeat this because it seems you're not getting it:
You are searching for a pattern that isn't there and then you are complaining that the pattern isn't obvious enough. 2-similar, 1-different is not how starcraft was designed. You're trying to make a hard rule out of coincidences.

also, i have to laugh at this one:

yeah, he already did. For humans, they're called Red, Green and Blue. For pigments, they're Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow.

 

Could someone who actually knows what they are talking about respond please. The 8th just simply doesn't want to see the truth, hence his complete ignorance of the one point that trumps everything he said above, that being the basic changes that were made in sc2 which proves everything I said as fact.


I still insist btw that even with the changes in starcraft 2 to zerg, that zerg is just not unique enough. The hatcheries should be similar to the crypts in war 3 having an attack of their own.

 

You guys are so harsh to each other, why I don't agree with the rest of atlasmech's opinions on starcraft, but I really like his ideas for the zerg defense, and I think we should change focus on the thread's discussion to that before it continues to plummet into more negativity. What I am seeing is a large zerg unit just called a crawler, produced either straight from the hatchery like the queen or from larva, can move off creep without losing health, and then can transform into either the spine or spore crawler while on creep. Even just having the spine and spore crawlers not lose health while off creep would certainly make zerg defense more interesting, and make the defense uproot mechanic more viable.

 

Everyone that has responded (and those that didn't respond clearly didn't care enough about your changes to respond) has said you are wrong. The only exception is a couple people like your zerg defense idea, which is a small part of your original post.

Insulting people like asdf and the8thark, who contribute a large portion to this forum, just makes you look stupid as hell.

Not that you needed the help, your suggestions are ridiculous and you refuse to stop pushing the same 3 or 4 lines over and over.

asdf is completely right: 2 same 1 different is in NO way a theme of starcraft.

This gave me a laugh =D

 

In AtlasMECH's defence, I urge you all to stop labelling the poor chap "a troll". He's obsessed with purity of form: he's obviously a Xel Naga.