Starcraft2 will include hard counters. We have seen examples of Terran, and Protoss units; and in the examples, we saw some strengths and weaknesses. Using SC1 & SC:BW units, including zerglings (and possibly banelings), how would you deal with the new units we have seen. Think back to examples from strategies that you used to use. Not just hard counters, but normal unit counters too (good o'l burrowed zergling vs siege tank :good How would you contend? this is how the Devs said make/remove units. We might just figure out what will stay and go. SO: Scenario: (i am attacked by blahblah and blah blah) Action: blaah blaaah blaaah please try not to include speculation about how you would use a New Unit that doesn't exist yet. Scenario: Mothership (unique style) Action: I would slow the Mothership down with ensnare, and cripple it with my devourers. Ensare and Plague, and Scourge would likely bypass Time Bomb. That much HP would take a lot of scourge to destroy it. Imagine trying to take down a mothership with a fleet of Phoenix (overload ability= practialy a psionic storm between the mothership and my scourge) Posts merged. Don't double post: use some sort of internal separator if you want to give multiple examples or make multiple statements.
burrowed zergling are unburrowed right near a siege tank. At that close range, zerglings tear the tank apart while being immune to the siege mode fire, if I remember correctly. --- Scenario: Mothership (unique style) Action: I would slow the Mothership down with ensnare, and cripple it with my devourers. Ensare and Plague, and Scourge would likely bypass Time Bomb. That much HP would take a lot of scourge to destroy it. Imagine trying to take down a mothership with a fleet of Phoenix (overload ability= practialy a psionic storm between the mothership and my scourge) I was never a great player so my scenarios are limited to small examples (i've had my hide gift wrapped handed to me many times Tongue) I'm sure there are good players who would be much more creative. -- Scenario: Vikings Action: I used to puck on goliaths from a distance with my Guardians Grin. Now the Vikings can get up and hunt my guardians down Sad . I wonder if Devourer acid spores would remain on a Viking when it lands? --- Scenario: Thor Action: I would use spawn broodling (if there is juicy organic core). Sounds too easy though, so I suspect that might not be an option. SO I would burrow hydralisks in a ring around the Thor. Let my hydralisks pop up behind the Thor, as it turns, while burrowing the ones taking damage. Add some lurkers and this could be golden. Mutalisks are also very quick, guardians would be too vulnerable and valuable for me to use. Posts merged. Don't double post: use some sort of internal separator if you want to give multiple examples or make multiple statements.
I´d like to buy your crystal ball that allows you to predict the exact positions of your enemys units so you can burrow your units there. Hard counters are boring, if they exist they would require attention, like your Viking example: If your enemy doesn´t notice fast enough flight is useless.
@ Anansi_Tragoudia , welcome to the forums, but please read the forum guidelines before posting. You aren't supposed to post one after the other. Instead, condense your posts using the "edit" button. Not doing so is considered spamming. Furthermore, it is pointless to come up with counters for SC2 units with SC1 Zerg units. Just doesn't make sense. You're fighting a metaphorical battle without looking at all of your weapons.
sorry about the multiple posts, i thought it would serve as good format examples. I understand what you mean about metaphorical battles, but I suggested using SC1 units because that is what the Devs said (quite a few times) they did to create the units they have now. Implement the unit and see how the rest of the units interact. My Thor example: Spawn Broodling, that is a point to consider, mega expensive unit, thor, taken out with 1 cast. Remember Archons could not be taken out w/ Spawn broodling: 2 organic Templar fuse to make 1 energy being with a tiny organic core. Logical way to balance out sacrificing such powerful units against a death dealing ability. Colossus is a robot, so it is fine. Devourer spores: Viking on ground and air, still affected? The Devs add units, and test them with whats available, and add or remove units based on these tests. We do know that at least a few units from SC1 will be kept, as well as some abilities, so its not entirely not metaphorical.
Like I said.... you have no way of knowing what is in SC2. When Devs said that, he meant they try NEW units on NEW units. They don't just throw new units in the mix with old ones. They design an entire race and then put it in versus itself. That's how they did the Protoss. Then they COMPLETELY designed the Terrans and balanced them (obviously) against themselves. Then they put the TWO RACES together and balanced them one unit by one unit. They didn't just start adding newer units and taking older ones out. Also, we know that Broodling probably won't be an ability in SC2, and if it was, I seriously doubt it would be usable against the Thor. It probably wouldn't be considered a "biological" unit. It would just be wayyyy to easy to kill the Thors
Hmm about scenario no1 how to take down a Mothership... it's not as powerful as we saw in gameplay movie(but can be built in number. I read on Gamespot that thay saw 5marines and 3vikings taking out one Mothership with no problem. @ Joneagle_X some units AREN'T hyphotethic like hydras. It doesn't matter if we don't know how they will look like, their function will be the same. Also I can't imagine Zerg without Scrogues. My scenario: how to take out Colossus Since it's so big it can be attacked by anti air units and buildings... IF Scrogues will remain in game any number of Colossus shouldn't be a problem ;P. I wonder how strong will be Phoenix's Overcharge. Will it be able to hold off Scrogues?
Here is a minor example of the testing strategy. I accidentally ran into this again. The major reason I suggested putting SC vs SC2 units was because of what was said in the vids. I was said at least 2 times. I really don't feel like going through all the vids again. Karune from Blizzard --- 2. Can we expect units to replace the Reaver and the Soul Hunter? (starcraftzone.com) Yes, we are always testing the addition of new units as well as the removal of older units. For instance, in our current build, the Terran Firebat is back in the game, as we test how he interacts with the new additions into StarCraft II. Of course, nothing is final though. http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general&t=23162&p=1&#post23162 You are thinking Zerg on Zerg I'm saying SC Zerg vs. SC2 Protoss/Terran. In the demo vids, they didn't just show Protoss vs Protoss or Terran vs Terran; they also fought each other
Yes but those two races haven't been balanced against themselves and the opposing race. But Zerg hasn't yet been thrown in the mix. That's all I'm saying. But they're not balancing all these units against the OLD Zerg units.
If I'm not wrong, Thor currently has 300-400hp I think (judging from the video). That's not really too much but its firepower is just pure ownage. I think the Zerg just need to use mutalisk to deal with that sort of hp. The Protoss have warp rays, no worry. Throw in a few phoenixes and their resistant to mass of ground. If Zerg can't use mutalisk (Thor can attack air for some strange reason....), then banelings will probably smash it down with whatever new unit blizzard comes up with. EDIT: Hm....that's bad. It shouldn't be having so much hp because it's not meant to be a tanker....
First of all, Thors will NOT be able to have Spawn Broodling cast on them, as they are a mechanical unit and it is not like they are controlled by a single guy, so if that guy dies from Broodling in effect the whole thing dies. I say this because the Siege Tank was also a mechanical unit, but could still have it cast upon them. They have shown the Thor's weakness, being it's vulnerability to air attacks and being shot at from behind. However, comparing, or coming up with tactics to counter StarCraft2 units with StarCraft1 units, is not a bad idea. There are bound to be similar units to the original game or at least different units that fill the same roll. Besides, any thinking that promotes tactics over brute strength is well worth it and will receive my personal 'thumbs-up' :good:! One thing I love about what they have shown in the StarCraft2 demonstrations is that every unit has a weakness. This will get rid of 'mass' tactics, Zerg possibly being an exception to this, because whatever the player masses, the opponent will be able to mass a counter. A classic cycle that's been shown already is Siege Tanks own Zealots (may require some cover or vantage point), Immortals own Siege Tanks, Reapers own Immortals, Zealots own Reapers, Siege Tanks own Zealots... and the cycle continues!
Thor can attack air units: Bach 10, Q#3 http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general&t=1&p=1&#post1 Can the Thor defend itself against air units well? The Thor unit can attack air units, although it has a relatively slow rate of fire. It is always still better to escort your Thor units with additional support units. -Karune ------ The Blizzcon Demo allowed people to be TvT PvP or PvT so they must be quite balanced in those areas. As far as the Zerg balance, i think I would mostly agree with you since they are not fully implemented. ---- 'OLD Zerg units' makes some sense. They are not starting from scratch; we've seen Mutalisk (still have bouncing glaive worm), Zergling (with new baneling morph -Marinecorp-); in a Karune Q/A batch (12or13), the Ultralisk was mentioned as being an important portion of the Zerg that is in progress. These are old units being tested and worked on. Even for the Protoss the Dragoon was eventually removed, but will still be left in for the Map Editor. The reaver was a unit in the SC2, but it was not implemented as of yet. These two units were mentioned at different times so I can't say with certainty that the reaver will be in the Map Editor. Lead Designer Dustin Browder did say they wanted to "Re-imagine Starcraft" --------------------------------------------- These are all examples of SC1 units and SC2 units playing against eachother, some are altered some it's unknown whether or not they were altered. Me continually bringing evidence to support my position will do little to convince you, if I do not fully understand your position. I know that you disagree with the idea of SC1 Zerg vs SC2 P/T units, mostly because its likely that Zerg are not demonstrated, thus we cannot know what units exist and do not. (a logical point) Also that you think it is unlikely that the Zerg have been tested against the P/T factions, since for all we know the Zerg have not been fully implemented, and thus not balanced properly. You believe the races are balanced against themselves first, then the other races. ------------------ Could you please explain why you don't think the SC1 units would be used for testing purposes. I'm not sure why you don't think SC1 units are tested with SC2 units. I thought the firebat post was a good example. Also what did you mean by testing units 'Unit by Unit'? Aren't the units too dissimilar to have an equivalent unit in the opposing faction?
Thor can attack air? Dang! I didn't know that! Another reason for testing/countering StarCraft2 units with StarCraft1 units would be that it doesn't end up like a completely different game. They will constantly be thinking of things to put in that go with the old units as well, so they all fit together and suit each other, but at the same time try to make each race more unique. It'd a good idea, keep up the tactical thinking!
