Discussion of the Month Topic: Mothership

The following report is a summation of the discussion on the Protoss Mothership. The included opinions have been discussed a number of times and have been decided to be the most inclusive, fair, and reasonable set of suggestions that can be expected.

While you are free to comment on the contents of the article and to offer suggestions, I beg that you limit such comments to constructive criticism that does not include thing such as "I hate the old Mothership, leave it as it is." The time for the general discussion of the Mothership is over and done with.

If you would like to offer a suggestion on how this report is written, or a change to its content, please do so in the most coherent, concise, and reasonable manner possible.

Thank you!


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Starcraft2Forum.org Discussion of the Month: Protoss Mothership​

The overwhelming consensus has been that the Mothership needs to be just that: the Mothership. In effect, the Mothership in its current state as a non-unique unit will overlap the role of the Carrier significantly. Also, opinion has shown that the inclusion of the Mothership as a unique unit will change the game play of Starcraft 2 for the better in new and exciting ways. StarCraft has always been about large battles and extremely powerful and awe-inspiring units. The addition of the Mothership should simply be an extension of this theme. Therefore, any and all efforts should be made to balance the Mothership in its previous “unique” state. Most posters are practically begging for the Mothership to be a unique unit and for its original abilities to be returned as well.

This super unit fits the Protoss structure of a single unit that has lots of firepower. In fact, it fills a void the Carrier was never able to. There has been significant support of this unit being all but unstoppable so long as it is supported correctly, not a number of them in a “fleet” formation. In contrast, the other races need to have mechanics that are just as fulfilling that play to their strengths. Maybe the Protoss have a super-unit, but both Zerg and Terran need to have Tier 3 strategies that will allow them to be just as distinct and powerful in their own way.

However, if the Mothership is left in a reduced role with “unlimited” production, it will inevitably overlap the role of the Carrier. Given the choice between a Tier 3 unit that is large, powerful, and chock full of abilities as a caster, the player will always prefer it to the unit with relatively little power and ability for a similar cost. In addition to the Mothership’s increased role, it has been suggested that even more distance be put between the Mothership and Carrier and that the Carrier’s stats be reduced so that it is accessible in either late Tier 2 or early Tier 3, well before the Mothership becomes available in the tech tree.

With regards to the abilities of the Mothership, just about all responders felt that the Black Hole is a phenomenal ability both in concept and use and should not be surrendered by Blizzard as an ability for the Mothership. However, the cloaking ability of the Mothership was met with much more concern. The opinions stated were that the Mothership should include the Black Hole ability with some balancing and the cloaking be removed. A number of ideas were suggested, but it was generally agreed that the black hole ability should affect only air units. The best ideas for the Black Hole ability are as follows:

1. The black hole ability does area of effect damage over time to only air units. Units that are killed by the ability will be sucked into the hole as they are destroyed.

2. The black hole is an area of effect spell that draws air units slowly toward the center for its duration and units that reach the center will be sucked in, but the units will only be drawn at a limited rate (one unit disappears per an allotted amount of time).

3. Air units at the outer portions of the ability will have a chance to escape so long as they proceed directly away from it while units toward the center are destroyed.

4. A limited number of air units can be affected by the spell, however many are needed to correctly balance the spell.

5. The duration of the effect for the ability could simply be shortened.

While it has been suggested that the cloak ability be removed, other suggestions have been offered to replace this ability.

The most popular idea was that there be a “missile” ability which is launches similarly to the EMP and knocks units in its area of effect out of place. The missile itself would do no damage but would force units away from the center of the missile’s application point and would serve to disrupt enemy formations to give a temporary tactical advantage. Lighter units would be displaced further than more massive units, such as the Thor.

In respect to the other abilities of the Mothership--the planet cracker and the time bomb--the response was generally positive. However, it was also suggested that these abilities be strengthened to their original form if the unit is a “super-unit.”

These suggestions were all made with the idea that the Mothership would be a unique unit and these abilities would not be applied by more than one unit. Again, this is consistent with the opinions of about ninety percent of all the responders. It was consistently cited that the Mothership should not be in any way a stand-alone unit and should be completely dependant upon the support of other units, especially in defense against air units.

The Mothership is generally regarded as a great unit. It’s abilities have been lauded, especially the black hole. The unit has been applauded as a phenomenal idea and a unique change in the game play of Starcraft 2. The reduction of this unit’s effectiveness, however, is thought to be a mistake. General public opinion has suggested the Mothership be returned to its original form with a few balancing ideas implemented that will fulfill its original intention and will change the face of Starcraft 2.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. Mass-producing the Mothership is completely awkward looking, and it's reintroduction as a super-unit is an idea that must be considered. Specifically, I'd like to thank you for being so quick to point out the popular fear that the Mothership and Carrier will overlap in their roles as a Tier 3 Flagship unit.

Personally, I have never been a supporter of the Black Hole ability. It looks simply amazing, but I quite simply don't see how it could be properly balanced. Having AoE damage or only sucking in a few units shuns the concept of a black hole. It seems like it would fit much better to simply combine the concepts behind the Time Bomb and Black Hole abilities, allowing for the Time Bomb to be cast from a distance, rather than have it's focal point always be the Mothership.

However, the seemingly rabid insistence on the return of the Black Hole ability is the only issue that I could possibly raise with this presentation. Well done. owerup:

 

Seriously people, while I said I won't be happy with comments that aren't helpful, the reason I even posted this was because I need feedback!!!!!

 

well summarized

I agree that the Mothership would be better implemented as a unique unit. As mentioned it fits Protoss gameplay better that way. Perhaps one more suggested ability? Some manner of 'Beamdown' cast, in which the Mothership can produce and teleport a squad of 7 Zealots and a single High Templar directly beneath it to provide quick reinforcement or raiding. This function would be somewhat similar to the Terran DropPod ability.

Secondly, perhaps you could include a note that IF, and hopefully they don't, but IF they keep the Mothership as a multiple build unit - they should place it in a more defensive/support role and include the lore background that the Mothership received its name due to these ships being used to monitor and protect primitve species, and the name came from those species who from their perspective would see the hovering vessel as being the sole source of the alien prescence.

 

i agree with all of what was said except i dont like the idea of the missile that dislodges units.

another fix for black hole could be just shortening the time it lasts for, in the protoss vid the ability lasts about 25 seconds which is rediculous, i think making it around 10seconds and having ships half pulled in taking a small damage could fix the problem.

 

A couple of edits have been instituted. They are outlined in bold. They are not final but are there to generate further discussion. Again, please limit comments to helpful suggestions and/or critiques. Do not try to simply shoot down ideas as they have been heavily discussed. If you can provide a thoughtful argument for why something should not be included, then please do so, but do not simply state your opinion.

 

5 "The length of time for which the ability should be experienced could simply be shortened."

i think this could be better phrased, along the lines of

"the duration of the effects of the black hole could simply be shortened "

 

Sweet I like it but you missed my suggestion to make the BH a channeling spell where the Mothership is unable to move but can still fire and if destroyed will immediately end the BH.

Also I have a question are you submitting just this summary or the entire discussion thread to Blizzard?

 

Just the summary. And I pondered your idea, but I thought it's features were covered nicely by a number of the other suggestions.

Also, if the above bolded ones don't generate any support, they'll be removed in the final submission.

 

I will express my aproval for # 5 of the suggestions to balance black hole since that is another one of the many ways to balance it.

I will express my disdain for # 2 ability to replace cloaking field. The protoss already have warp in and phase prisms. This ability would seem to be a bit pointless and if they don't replace cloaking field with black hole, I'd rather have the MS have cloaking field than beam down zealots.

 

Both fair points... I will take them into account.

But regarding the ability changes.... I believe the MS currently has Time Bomb, Planet Cracker, and Cloaking.

If the unit is a super unit, and you remove the Cloaking ability, I would say it would be fair to have four abilities since one is completely non-lethal and all could be balanced with different energy requirements.

My vision, after reading all these ideas would be:

Mothership-

Planet-Cracker
Time Bomb
Black Whole
Shockwave

 

Oh, I see where you're going. I guess I just assumed a MS would have 3 abililities. I guess I don't see why a super unit couldn't have 4.

I guess that would be fine then. I would rather that they brought back star relics and gave them a cloaking field ability. I never liked the idea that they were making the MS the new arbiter. I also wasn't thrilled with making the star relic a ground unit and renaming it, whatever they renamed it.

 

The Star Relic issue is being covered in another submission to Blizzard, but don't worry, it has definitely come up in discussion.

And right now it's called the Stasis Orb and has pretty much no abilities.... awesome.... almost.

 

How about a mothership not taking up supply but when you load zealots in it it can attack and cast spells (but not hijacked) and when you want to fight you can unload them all but the mothership cease to be able to attack. (Sort of a cargo bay for offensive starcrafts)

Okay, this sounds totally whack.

 

Wow, not a single thing I had said. Thought I had some good ideas about making it more of a support vessel to keep it from over lapping carrier while keeping MS lore.

*sigh* Sorry, feel free to tell me to fuck off if I just sound bitter.

 

The only issue I have with this summation is the section where you go over "the best" ideas for blackhole. Maybe whoever reads it from Blizzard won't give it a second thought. If that person was me though, I would want to know how you quantified what made these ideas better than others. Depending on those guidlelines are they could go against Blizzard design philosophy and practices.


The summary aside from that was well written. It really gave me an idea of what the people from these forums were thinking as a group. Too bad certain points were made here like I've seen in another forum but that's just a product of the people who visit these forums and doesn't negatively reflect on them for not thinking in certain ways.

 

Well... of course I could explain why these suggestions were made, but in truth, these suggestions were simply the ones that were put forward and weren't objected to in any serious way.

It's not that they're "better" than any other ideas, but more that they fit the general theme of the unit and the idea of the Protoss while maintaining the feel of this "super-unit" Mothership.

 

Here's my beef with the Motheship being a super unit.

Its too strong... in big battles it will do too much damage to both air and ground units.

The Black hole is a ridiculous ability. The only way i can see it being balanced is making it 50-100mana, single target, sending the unit into the abyss or whatever. No AoE, period.

Time bomb is also quite an ability, if it doesnt affect protoss units(the player's units,) its also imbalanced, thats 1 screen almost of non moving targets ready to get fried.

Planet cracker did too much damage in that vid imo, and lasted too much.

A super unit might be a bit too super...i just dont feel they can balance a super unit(hp/damage) with those 3 abilities, Time Bomb, Planet Cracker, Black hole, it seems to powerful even for a super unit

 

Um first the discussion was last month, second this is not the discussion thread. This is the thread saying what was subbmited.

 

First off i know this isnt a disscussion thread but i believe DKutrovsky's post needs a response.

@ DKutrovsky The big problem with everyone calling the Mothership op because of its abilities is that abilities have almost nothing to do with balance (assuming the ability started off semi reasonable). What determines the balance of a unit is the numbers governing its various abilities. For example if the planet cracker did only 1 damage every 10 secs or time bomb only lasted 3 seconds we would be having a completely different disscussion. A "super unit" Mothership is balanceable because numbers can constantly be tweaked until an equilibriam is found. The only variable is how long it takes to find that equilibriam.