Detectorific?

I think, read 'hope', I'm speaking for everyone here when I say that we do not like the Overseer at all. It's been said that the Overseer idea was introduced in order to make Cloaking more viable to Zerg opponents, because the old Overlord was simply too good a detector. 'Detectorific', it was called...

If the old Overlord was too 'detectorific' to be viable in StarCraft2, how come the Terran now have their 'detectorific' Radar Tower? Surely this is the pinnacle of detection. It can locate Uncloaked units in the Fog of War, locate Cloaked units within sight range and grants detection to all nearby Missile Turrets. When combined with the Scanner Sweep, surely Cloaking has become less viable against Terran opponents in StarCraft2, just like the Zerg in StarCraft1. That said, surely there's no need for the Overseer, and Blizzard may have just been overcompensating for what happened in StarCraft1.

Do you agree? Or have I overlooked something simple and just made a complete arse of myself?

 

Doesnt the Vulkan detect too?
Terrans now have the detectorific award imo. I agree with you. I think they should just give detection back to the overlords. As for overseers abilities (changeling etc), i dont know. Maybe make the abilities researchable for the overlord?

Put a poll up. I wanna see what people think.

 

the only thing i have to say is that it takes a longer time before you can do Scanner Sweep, you can only get that upgrade on the Command Center only after you have built a Merc Haven, which itself needs a Factory, placing it about a whole Tier later in SC2.

Source is SC2Armory, im too tired and lazy to make a link right now. ill make one in the morning, Night all!!!

 

Too late for a poll now. Unless a mod would be happy enough to add one...............?

@ Ace. The Vulkan also detects, although it's much later on in the game. I agree that Detection should be upgradeable for Overlords, although I wouldn't want individual upgrades, as that would basically result in the exact same situation we've got now with the Overseers.

@ Lurkers. But how many Cloakable units are available before then? Besides, once you've got Scanner Sweep, you've pretty much got universal Detection. A couple of Command Centres with them attached and you can almost instantly got universal Detection. Combined with Radar Towers being able to locate them and giving Detection to all nearby Missile Turrets. If Terran are near instantly able to Detect any Cloaked units, not only attacking their base, but anywhere on the map, then why can't Zerg be given a decent coverage of just their base? If there's any team that Cloaked units aren't viable against, it's Terran.

 

The Terran detection mechanic really isn't much different then the original starcraft. If anything it may be slower. In SC terrans could build comsats just after building an academy, meaning that, as lurker said, you'll be getting the Scanner Sweeper later in the game. Missile turrets had detection in SC as well, so requiring a Radar Tower to give them detection actually hurts as far as detection goes.

It does seem that the Radar Tower could be quite powerful, but I would like to see it in action before iI really make a decision on it.

As for the Vulkan having detection It will be nice, but by the time they come out I don't think detection will be playing as much of a role in the game, but again I'd like to see it in action before making a final decision.

 

So, without meaning to put words in your mouth, are you of the opinion that as long as the detectorific Detectors come later in the game then it's viable? I mean, the Terran have better Detection in StarCraft2, but it comes later, so if Overlords were given an upgrade for late tier two, granting them Detection, would that be viable for both Zerg players and opponents?

 

I'm not sure what is meant by "gives detection to all nearby missile turrets," but I highly doubt that each one gets their own detection radius. unless we've got a source, I'm calling bad wording on this one.

 

Yeah to some extent that is what I'm saying. In my mind the real power of cloaked units comes in the early game, when a few units when used right can have a large effect. As an example you often see a DT rush early of a few DT's. But you hardly ever see a mass of DT in the late game, because there is too much detection to make it effective. This is the sort of balance I think needs to be maintained, and I think blizzard is working towards, but that is just my opinion.

As for having detection as an upgrade for the overlords I would be fine with that. Assuming the timing of it was such that it made a cloaked rush viable but not overpowered, how that could be done I'm not sure.

 

1) Not a big deal. You can see them coming, but you can't target them until they're close.

2) The detection ability isn't different from that of a missile turret.

3) Missile turrets detected by themselves in StarCraft I. Now they're weaker. All the Radar Towre does is give back that ability.

IMO, Radar Towers are not "detectorrific". Also, by taking out a single Radar Tower, you can stealth pwn an enemy base. You would have to kill all your opponents' Overlords to pull that off in StarCraft I.

Scanner Sweep works the same way in StarCraft II as in StarCraft I. It has the same limited duration and forces you to guess where your opponent's units are.

As for the Nighthawk (aka Vulkan, aka Nomad), it's expansive because it's not priced like a farm.

 

@ Kaaraa. I think it's as simple as what it says. Missile Turrets ordinarily don't have Detection, but when placed near Radar Towers, they become Detectors.

@ Crouse. Yeah. And Cloakable units later on in the game are still viable without relying completely on it, unlike the Dark Templar which rely on it all the time, which is why they still need to be viable for rushed.

@ Kimera. I'm not saying that Terran's ability to Detect is too big or overpowered, I'm talking about it in relation to Zerg and the Overlords. But regardless, in answer to your points;

1. You can see them coming and get prepared. You'll almost never be caught off-guard. Any ambushes or sneak raids or anything, even if it's from a higher tier, you'll know they're there before they even have a chance to pull it off.

2. Perhaps not, but Radar Towers would be a high priority target for a quick Air raid, basically knocking out their first line of defence. Instead of being known before you're even seen, you'll have to be within sight range before they even know you're there, yet alone react, giving you a huge advantage. That said, I'm positive they, or at least the most important ones, and not ones like the one we saw on the official StarCraft2 website, will always have Missile Turrets with them, so not only will you then have that Detection radius as well, but you'll also be able to defend from those quick Air raids. These two buildings will go hand in hand.

3. Missile Turrets aren't in fact weaker in StarCraft2. They're literally exactly the same as the StarCraft1 towers.

You wouldn't have to kill off all Overlords in order to stealth an opponents base in StarCraft1, as Zerg players don't use every single Overlord for Detection. If they did, then the entirety of their food production would be on the front line.

I'm also aware that Scanner Sweep works in the same way.

So, back in relation to the Overlords, they said that Overseers were introduced to make Cloaking viable for Zerg opponents, but, assuming you were a Terran player's opponent, how well do you feel that a stealth attack would go? Without meaning to answer for you, I cannot see Cloaking being a viable option against Terran players. If you're using a semi-Cloakable unit, then there's a chance you'll already have been located in the Fog of War, if you're not then you'll get located anyway inside their line of sight. Best case scenario, they won't have any immediate Detectors in that area, or you'll at least have already discovered they don't, but then all they need is a quick Scanner Sweep and you've got nowhere to run. Even if you do survive the duration of that Scanner Sweep, they've easily got at least three more coming. Anyway, so how viable do you feel Cloaking is against Terran in StarCraft2?

 

It's for posts like this that make me hate the "no quoting" rule.

@#1: True, but you won't know what they're attacking with.

@#2: They're a high priority and have a better "defense", and of course they'd always be associated with MTs. (You pretty much have to put a Radar Tower near MTs if your opponent is terran, otherwise you will be owned by Banshees.)

@#3: I'm not just talking about stats. In StarCraft II, missile turrets do not detect by themselves, they need help from the Radar Towers. (As you noted in an above post.)

You would need to kill off a lot of overlords. However, because overlords are being used as farms, you can just have them patrol your base (the edges and the interiors, in case something sneaks in).

It's not like science vessels just because you have so many of them. They make reacting to sneak attacks really easy, and since cloaking units tend to be weak for their cost...

I like playing zerg, and I was still getting sick of them. (In effect, I didn't get trained to resist dark templar raids when I wasn't zerg, simply because I wasn't used to putting out enough detectors.) On a related note, why don't I like siege tanks? In one of my first multiplayer games, I just parked a few siege tanks outside my base, and my opponent kept sending high templar against the base. I was killing the high templar without even being aware of them; I thought they were zealots because I couldn't tell the death sounds apart yet. I'm a fan of micro, and siege tanks require next to none of that (and pretty much none when it comes to defense).

If I were attacking a terran player, I think a sneak attack would be slightly weaker. They know I'm coming, but there's nothing preventing me from sending in a mixed force (cloakers and non-cloakers), or attacking from multiple directions, or using reapers to distract, etc.

I'm less worried about Radar Towers making stealth "useless" and more worried about the reaction time it gives you. Just because a bunch of siege tanks aren't stealthed doesn't mean you can't surprise an opponent with them... but it's a lot harder in StarCraft II. It makes non-stealthing units like reapers much weaker.

 

1. It doesn't matter. If your opponent always told you where they were attacking from before they did, who'd have the advantage?

2. Agreed, and vice versa. Missile Turrets without Radar Towers will get owned, and Radar Towers without Missile Turrets will get owned.

3. Ah, k. Agreed then.

I still reckon the Terran being able to know where they are before they attack, plus Missile Turrets still being able to Detect, plus the Scanner Sweep makes their Detection far too superior to Zerg's Overseers and Spore Crawlers. Oh, and Terran Ghosts can also locate units with Energy. I seriously reckon Blizzard's overcompensated in regards to nerfing Zerg Detection. A simple Detection upgrade for Overlords at the end of tier two or something would surely surmount to the equivalent of Terran's Detection/location abilities.

 

1. Okay.

Un-numbered: I was comparing what terrans are getting with what zerg used to get. Zerg may have weaker detection now, but that may not be so bad if Blizzard wants detection to be a terran strength.

I don't think an upgrade to give overlords detection is a good idea, simply because you will have so many overlords, which will generally hover in bases and make it impossible for stealthy units to penetrate without being spotted. I hope overlords are given useful abilities (eg is creep dropping good enough?) because otherwise they'll just all get turned into overseers.

 

I personally would rather have the detect ability be an upgrade for the overlord rather than having to morph each overlord to the overseer, as i know many players(including me) would still likely forget about overlords not having detection and failing to upgrade it, whereas being reminded about it everytime i click on an overlord and see the morph icon.

Plus, the overlord losing the detect ability doesnt make any sence lore-wise. The zerg are about evolving, which losing detection definately doesnt sound like evolving unless it's ability to detect was lost by being replaced with a more advantageous ability (maybe the ability to make creep. etc would be a logical explaination?)

 

@ Kimera. Blizzard stated that they removed the Overlord's Detection because it made using Cloaked unit inviable for Zerg opponents, so why would they make Detection a Terran strength? All that does is put them in the same position as the Zerg were in for StarCraft1. There's still the exact same problem, being Cloaking is still not a viable option against one of the teams.

If Overlords were given Detection through a universal upgrade at the end of tier two, then Cloaked units would still be able to be used, as, as someone said earlier, Cloaked units are mainly used earlier in the game. After all, how is a base of Overlords with Detection really any different from the Radar Towers and Scanner Sweeps that are available to Terran?

@ Eon. Maybe if the Overlords with Detection were given a small overlaying graphic, like a pulse or radar scanner, so that they could be differentiated from the others? Kinda like how Radar Towers have the overlaying graphics that indicates the extent of their range, or like how Pylons have the area showing the Psionic Matrix? Only I'd suggest the Overlord's graphic would just be an indication, and not map out their sight or detection range.

 

Terran seem to be the most detectorific.even being a bit overpowered in the sense (can phase cannons detect?).

why not use vikings, phoenixes or mutalisks to send them running to the back.? using wraiths/Valkyries or corsairs (don't even get me started on the scourge ) to hunt them often causes them to pool in a highly defended area, leaving them without detection for a quick raid.

DE-EVOLUTION IS COMPLETE

If a was a blizzard lore guy, the explaination i'd give would be the loss of the overmind and cerebrates, who saw through the overlords like they were an extension of their minds and Kerrigan can't do that, or something.

 

I disagree. Terrans aren't going to have detection over their entire base. You can sneak into a terran base, as they're not likely to have missile turrets all over the place (unlike overlords). Radar Towers will let the terran player use Scanner Sweeps more precisely but that still requires attention and a bit of micro, instead of the frustration of seeing every dark templar entering a zerg base getting popped by sunken colonies (in StarCraft I).

So maybe what terrans are getting are overpowered, but what zerg had in StarCraft I was worse.

Why should cloaking be restricted to early game? I don't see the dark templar, or ghosts using nukes, as early game things. Any unit should be effective throughout the entire game.

Giving all the overlords cloaking would result in the same problem with StarCraft I; overlapping detection radii that cover the entire base and make it impossible for a cloaked enemy unit to sneak in.

 

Terran may not have immediate Detection for their entire base, but they do have Detection for their entire base, for all their outposts and for all attacks. Sneaking into a Terran base is no longer a viable option. Even if you manage to avoid all the Radar Towers, because if you don't you'll be located, the Missile Turrets near those Radar Towers, because if you don't you'll be Detected, and, later, 'Nighthawks', because, again, you'll be Detected, and not to mention your opposing player's screen, who'll spot you snooping around, once you strike a single building once, they'll have an immediate location and instantly be able to Sweep the area. It doesn't require any micro at all.

I'm not saying Terran's Detection is overpowered, I'm saying it makes Cloaking much less useful to their opponents, which is the exact same problem with the Zerg in StarCraft1. Blizzard may have made Cloaking more useful against Zerg opponents, but they haven't made Cloaking more useful overall. In order for Cloaking to be more useful, it shouldn't be designed to be more useful against the Zerg specifically. It needs to be more useful overall, which at the moment it's not. Some teams still have a strong advantage over others.

Cloaking wouldn't be restricted to early game, it would be more viable in early game. There's a big difference there. Dark Templar were practically already primarily early game units, so if anything that promotes opening up more options for early game, and Nukes are hardly a typical example of using Cloak. They'd still all be useful throughout the entire game, most of them having to be because their Cloak is not permanent, but more options would be open earlier in the game. Just like how Zerglings and Zealots are used for early rushes, Roaches are used for early tanks, Reapers are used for early raids, etc. They're still useful throughout the entire game. It could be the same with Cloaked units. They should be used when they have the advantage, being when their opponents have as little Detection as possible, then Detection levels should increase, giving heed to other units and more than the same standard uses for those same Cloaked units, like, as you said, Nukes for Ghosts, etc.

Giving all Overlords Detection might not be the answer, I'm not saying it is, but regardless, the same problem that Blizzard was trying to fix with Zerg is now present with Terran. It's practically impossible to sneak a Cloaked units into their base, and if you do, after one attack, it'll get Detected immediately.

 

Is the Sensor Tower really that useful? The Terran player may have an advantage at some point, if he is skilled enough and combines the Sensor Tower with for example the ComSat but if he doesn't do that the enemy can use the Sensor Tower against the Terran player by causing massive confusion.
As an example we just take PvT, the T player knows that the P player is massing carriers but he don't know where these carriers are. If the P player now starts to send a single carrier in the sight range of the T player and some probes into the range of the Sensor Tower the T guy will just see the normal warnings and a single carrier. If he doesn't use the ComSat at this point he mostly will assume that the whole carrier fleet is attacking from that position and send his units there. Now the rest of the carrier fleets strikes from the opposite (less defended) side and attack the base.
Also, the non terran player could just keep sending in smaller units (and retreat them again) to spam the terran player with useless warnings and thus he won't know if it's a fake attack again or a real one.

But as I said before, that mostly depends on the experience/micro of the terran player, if he isn't able to react in the short time he sees the warnings (e.g. use the ComSat to know what exectly is coming) it won't help him.

 

I think it'll be fairly apparent for Terran players to use Scanner Sweep with Radar Towers. Not to mention that that tactic wouldn't work, as the Terran player would still be warned of the incoming mass of Carriers. If the Terran player isn't, as in there aren't any Radar Towers from where they're attacking from, then setting up a diversion would be useless as they're already offguard.

About spamming warning with smaller units, that'd waste more of your time than their time. Most likely they'd be able to tell which is the real attack based on the number of units and how far they get before retreating. If a lot more units keep coming, and at different speeds, etc, after the point where they usually turn around then chances are it'll be a real attack. But yeah, it'd require a lot more effort on your behalf than it would on their behalf.