Defense Omnidiscussion

Another month another Omnidiscusion. This time on the defenses of the 3 races. Jon has provided me with information about the defensive buildings of all three races from what he can remember of the Irvine build.



Protoss:
The Protoss have probably what is the most efficient defense since their singular defensive building does it all. It attacks air units and ground units and it detects. It even repositions itself. On top of that the price is right.



Phase Cannon
Very similar to its predecessor, to Photon Cannon, the Phase cannon is a detector and hits air and ground units. It does 20 damage a shot but its fire rate is rather low. It has 150/150 HP/SP and costs 150 minerals and requires power to build and fire. It has the ability to phase out and become mobile; it can do this at any time powered or not. When phased out the cannon loses all of its HP retaining only its shields so once those are gone it explodes. When phased out it can move across any passable terrain but can only phase back in in the presence of power.





Terran
A defensive Juggernaut, the Terrans have the most versatile defense available and when set up properly with Siege tank fire-bases are a tough nut to crack. Their defense is very unit-centric with their primary defense being the Bunker which has to be manned by infantry units. They also have the Missile Turret to further discourage air raids but their detection is now on a different building, the Sensor Tower, which can not only see cloaked units but can see movement in the fog of war. They will see you coming long before they actually see you.



Bunker

This building has no attack of its own but it can hold 4 infantry units. This makes it the most versatile defense structure available to any race but also makes it the most expensive because you have to buy the infantry to put inside of it. Infantry can fire out of the bunker but are protected from damage until the bunker is destroyed and the units emerge unscathed. According to Jon snipe could be used inside a bunker in the Irvine build but he neglected to use any of the other abilities. It costs 100 minerals



Missile Turret

A rotating missile battery for aerial defense. According to Jon it has bee improved since the original Starcraft and it now fires two missiles at a time. It has lost its detection ability as that is now on the sensor tower it costs 75 minerals has 150HP and does 30 damage.



Sensor Tower
The new detector for the Terrans. has a very long sight range and can detect cloaked units in that range. In addition to this there i a larger range it can detect units moving in the fog of war and will how you where they are. it can only detect the presence of units but not the type but nevertheless it will give some advanced warning. Due to its large sight range though it has been noticed that most Terran players build far too few of them.



Zerg
The spore and sunken colony is now back are now able to move and are dopped by the queen

Out good old gooey friends (or nemeses) have gotten many changes. The Creep colony and its defensive derivatives, the spore and sunken colony, have been removed from the game. Now the Queen has the ability to drop Creep Tumors to expand the creep while, Swarm Clutches for defense and Shriekers for detection. These structures can only be built by the queen. This is both an advantage as drones are no longer sacrificed making for a shorter build time and less cost, but it is also a disadvantage as killing the queen will stop the building of these structures till a new one is built.


Swarm Clutch

Small structure with low hitpoints but a strong fast attack. It replaces both the Sunken and Spore colony for attack. It shoots spores at air and ground units and only takes up 1 grid unit; can only be built on the creep. it fires quickly and does 20 damage but its Hitpoints are very low. It costs 75 minerals to build and is put down by the Queen but, like all Zerg, is best built in groups. It is meant o be used with the Shrieker for detection and a range boost.



Shrieker

Another small structure designed to replace the detection abilities of the spore colony. Built by the Queen for 100 minerals. In addition to its detection abilities, all Swarm clutch in range of the shrieker have their range extend to the full sight range of the shrieker allowing you to defend a large area with a well placed Shrieker/Clutch grid.

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Questions

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What are your thoughts on the defenses in Starcraft2?



What are your thoughts about Protoss defenses in general?

What do you think about the Phase Cannon?

--Is it enough to help your units hold an enemies at bay and discourage raids?

--should it get phasing back?

--Is it good that it loses its HP when it phases out or should it keep some for padding in case of an EMP

--Should it be allowed to exit the power matrix when phased out or should it die if it loses power when phased out?



Do the Protoss need any other defenses or can the Cannon do it all?







What are your thoughts about Terran defenses in general?

What do you think of the New Missile Turret

--Do you think it was a good idea to remove detection from Missile Turrets?

--Do you like the increased fire rate and double missile firing of the new turrets?



What are your thoughts on the Sensor tower

--Do you think a stand alone detector for Terran is a good idea.

--Should the fog of war detection be on the Sensor Tower as it is or should it be an upgrade like it originally was?



How bout the Bunker

--Will it still be effective?

--Should abilities be allowed inside a bunker?







What do you think of the new Zerg defenses?

--Do you think it is a good idea for the queen to be the only unit to place these defenses?

-- What do you think of the ability of sunkens and spore colonies to uproot and move?
----Should they be limited to moving over the creep?

What do you think of the Swarm Clutch?

--Is it a good replacement for the old colonies?

--Is it too powerful? Too Weak?

--Is its small size a good thing?

--Do you like having one building for air and ground defense?



What are you thoughts on the Shrieker?

--Do you like the Zerg having a discrete detector?

--Is the range boost given my the Shrieker to Swarm Clutches good thing?

----Is full sight range a good thing or should the range boost be less than that







Also give thoughts on pricing HP and attack power of the defenses

and feel free to make any other comments you have.
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Great thread !

What do you think of the new Zerg defenses?

--Do you think it is a good idea for the queen to be the only unit to place these defenses?

According to me this idea to give to the queen all the abilities of building structures is ..... great ! We will no more, as you said, sacrify the drones to build the structures. UNFORTUNATELY as you also pointed the fact that just ONE unit (the queen) is able to build those defensive structures makes the Zergs weak. Indeed if just one unit allows us to build those structures we will need to HARDLY DEFEND the queen. This unit will be the priority for the enemies.

The same priority for the sensor tower, but that structure is not useful as well. I mean we can use the nomad for detection.

The Queen should defend itself hardly, not like in SC 1 when it does just use its abilities. Else once we build a queen the first preoccupation for us will be to build some units to protect it. So we will be at the defensive, not the offensive.

 

Protoss cannons do not have detector

 

Protoss defences.
I like the fact that all functions, Anti-Air, Anti-Ground and Detection are still all combined in the one structure. They're not the race to mess around with a whole lot of different defensive structures each for their own unique purpose, so having the Phase Cannon suits them well.
The ability to move Phase Cannons is a very interesting one. It will allow Protoss players to build less of them and will also allow the player to combat raids and other sneak attacks more effectively. However I'm not 100% behind the ability to move outside of the Psionic Matrix. The Psionic Matrix is what powers all the buildings, so I don't understand why this one would be able to travel outside of it. Also, this means that Phase Cannons could be used offensively by just deploying some Phase Prisms outside their base, which isn't what they're supposed to be used for at all. I feel that they should be confined to the Psionic Matrix and unable to move outside of it, like how a unit is unable to move over a cliff. It would still be possible to use them offensively, by deploying and redeploying Phase Cannons the whole way to their base, but it would require too much time and effort to be useful.
Terran defence.
The Terran's defences have remained largely the same, the only difference being the Sensor Tower. I think having these towers suits the Terran perfectly. They're both physically and technologically inferior when compared to the Zerg and Protoss, so a lot of their work would revolve around reconnaissance and intelligence. They've got to know the battle before they start the battle, and now they can. They're also able to Salvage old Bunkers which could be a huge problem in StarCraft1 when advancing your front line of defence, and can deploy quick emergency defences with the Nomad if need be.
Zerg defence.
I love the new Zerg defences. I know some people think that it's a disadvantage that they can only be built by the Queen, but I don't agree with this. Defences are already set up before the attack starts. People might think it will be troublesome having to have her at one base at a time, but really, that's all you'd be doing anyway. I never saw Protoss players trying to alternate deploying Photon Cannons with two different Probes for two difference bases at the same time. They just deployed all the ones in one base, then deployed all the others in the other base with the different Probe. The same will happen with the Queen. The Queen's able to drop all the defences you want, Deep Tunnel to the next base and start dropping defences there.
About the actual defences, I like them a lot. Fragile but powerful suits the Zerg a lot, just take a look at Cracklings. The Shriekers are also a well suited new structure, but personally I feel that the Zerg should still have the Overlords as their Detectors, so they shouldn't need the Shriekers to be.
The few things I don't like about the Zerg defences at the moment are the Queen's Swarm Infestation ability which is a really cheesy ability and that the Swarm Clutches all look the same when build in numbers, which they need to be. Only taking up one square is fine, but they look to uniform and orderly. I think that they should either have a few skins or should be fairly animated so they never really look as though they're all neat and organised.
@ TheWorker. I'm pretty sure that Phase Cannons are still Detectors. I haven't heard anything saying they're not and otherwise the Protoss have to wait until Observers.

 

What do you think about the Phase Cannon?
--Is it enough to help your units hold an enemies at bay and discourage raids?
Cheap enough, produced fast enough, moves. its everything you could ask for in basic defense. The fact it can move makes it more effectient when defending as the Protoss player can respond to raids by moving their cannons.
--Is it good that it loses its HP when it phases out or should it keep some for padding in case of an EMP
Yes its the correct balance with it losing its HP since pure energy doesn't have hitpoints. The EMP just makes it that little more riskier to deploy over vulnrable areas, luckily Protoss have the Nullifier's Null void ability in case of an enemy using EMP.
--Should it be allowed to exit the power matrix when phased out or should it die if it loses power when phased out?
No. How would it be controlled without the energy from the Pylons. I think it would work best if it started losing shield power when it isn't in the power matrix since it has nothing to feed it the energy for those shields.


What do you think of the New Missile Turret
--Do you think it was a good idea to remove detection from Missile Turrets?
It seems imbalanced now since it is weaker then the Sc1 turret and it has lost its detection ability. Making it cheaper would mean its too cheap for a static defense. Although if both rockets it fires do 30 damage each, meaning 60 per shot then the balance has been restored.
If not, it needs either more HP or damage.
--Do you like the increased fire rate and double missile firing of the new turrets?
They seem the same to me, or not much different to make a large impact on the battlefield.
--Do you think a stand alone detector for Terran, is a good idea.
It is now more costly for Terrans to make early detectors which is a setback, if the range is a very large one that may balance it, but it doesn't allow Terrans to get detects early game meaning they are vulnrable to Dark Templar rushes.
--Should the fog of war detection be on the Sensor Tower as it is or should it be an upgrade like it originally was?
It should stay an upgrade since its more important later game than early because you'd need to focus on pinpointing the cliff jumpers.

How bout the Bunker.
--Will it still be effective?
Very useful against early Zealot rushes and a lifeline to Baneling assults.
--Should abilities be allowed inside a bunker?
Passive abilities should not be allowed in a bunker, because a Medic could not heal a Marine from inside a Bunker if the Marine was outside. Thats if the Medic returns. But active abilities such as Stimpacks should be allowed as it works lore-wise and isn't imbalanced due to the fact you'd have to hotkey the units and it requires attention, in other words it isn't as easy as a right click.

--Do you think it is a good idea for the Queen to be the only unit to place these defenses?
Saves Zerg from wasting vuluable Drones and adds 100% to lore and dynamics. Althought these defenses would get owned late game and become useless IMO. I'd like for Drones to be able to Mutate into some new form of Sunkun colony which does 30 GtG damage with a slightly faster attack rate and they cost something like 75 minerals which equals up to a cost of 125 for these static defense since a Drone costs 50. It would have to be an upgrade at the Lair for balance making it a tier 2 upgrade.
What do you think of the Swarm Clutch?
Fast and weak. Fits in with Zerg lore and gameplay, althought they might become useless later game since units get too strong for them to handle. But it works well early game and as a raid repellant.
--Is it a good replacement for the old colonies?
I wouldn't call it a defense to suffic for the old Colonies, just something different.
--Is it too powerful? Too Weak?
Balanced just fine for early game.
--Is its small size a good thing?
Small is good as it allows the Zerg player to place them strategically allowing better base defense.

@TheWorker, if BoP said it does, it does as the information is sourced from Jon who played the game.

 

Um psionicz they made the Missile turret stronger

Also I just remembered about the nomad turrets not sure if I would count those as defenses or an offensive ability but if you think they should count as defenses feel free to comment on them

 

PHASE CANNONS:
I think Psionicz's idea about how Phase Cannons should lose Shields out of Pylon Energy is a Brilliant Idea....
But then comes the complication of .. should phase cannons regain shields inside pylon energy?? Wouldn't that make the Phased out Cannons too strong?...
Anyways, right now, it's great as it is... just the psionic matrix complication bit.

TERRAN DEFENSES
Definately lacking Anti-air for defense and unit... They made the Thor a more focused anti-air unit, but to me, it just doesn't fit the term "the Mighty Thor"... The Missile Turret seems too fragile. 150 hp ?... But their attack is a bit too high .. 30x2 = 60 dmg? .. However, I think right now, Missile Turret fits as an Anti-air defense... It is easily destroyable by cloaked units such as banshees, and it's cheap.. 75 bucks. It serves more of an early-mid game defense, where it can discourage Mutalisks and Phoenix, etc..
As for ground... bunker + siege tank.. no change here..


ZERG:
I Also agree that the Zerg needs something more than Swarm clutches. Right now it sounds and feels too much like Nomad's auto-turrets... They're good but not good enough in later games. However, having sunken/spore colonies at a higher tier defeats the Niche of the zerg.. Zergs are not Turtlers... Maybe they can make it so that Drones can also serve as Swarm Clutch builders, but will cost more minerals than the queen... and make the overall cost of the swarm clutch a bit better with a buffing of the clutch's HP...
Nevertheless, the swarm clutch is different, and I may be just too atuned to the old fashioned spore/sunken colonies.. =)
I don't think having the queen be the only defense builder is bad.. but I'd think it would piss people off.. It seems so limiting...
The small size = meh~ .. sure why not.. let's see if it works out =D

 

Cannons already lose all of their HP when they phase out so if they lost shielding when they leave the matrix that would cause them to explode. I supposed though if it were a gradual decrease then you would be able to jump gaps in the matrix but would be able to cannon rush your enemy

Ill keep that in mind

 

If they went out of the matrix they should make it so it's a one hit kill for all units, hence the risk.

 

Frankly I don't think they should b allowed to leave the matrix and if the matrix is removed through pylon destruction the cannons should disintegrate

 

In Sc1 they did 40 damage as I recall. Now as you say they have 30 so its lower, unless each missle deals 30 damage each which equals up to 60 then its ok.
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Lore-wise they shouldn't leave the matrix at all. But it is a game so I let that slide. Just let them have a 1hp per second decrease in shield when outside the Matrix. It isn't hard to replenish that shield since Protoss have Phase Prisms. But remember a Phase Cannon is only as strong as a Dragoon was cept damage bonuses were lost, such as Hydralisks owning Dragoons.

 

They dealt twenty explosive type damage in StarCraft1, and now that they deal thirty normal damage. Not only are they more powerful but they're going to be even more devastating against Mutalisks.

 

wow, this last Q&A batch, has turn this thread upside down, with the protoss phase cannons no longer able to phase out, and the zerg getting their sunks, and spore colonies back and them being able to move.

 

lol, i kinda didnt enjoy that patch..

now it seems the protoss are losing all there fun stuff!

 

They'll get something equally 'fun' don't worry ;]

 

Changed the questions please make note of that.

Also please discuss whether you would like colonies or the swarm clutch/shrieker and if you like the zerg defenses moving or if it should stay on Protoss

 

I'm fairly indifferent about the Phase Cannon having its mobility taken away, but I'm actually against the return of the Sunken and Spore Colonies. Unless they've been drastically shrunk, they're too big for the Queen to drop, and if it's too big for the Queen to drop then it has to be created by the Drones which degrades the Zerg's new defence system. This means that they'd pretty much have to have been shrunk. I liked how the Swarm Clutch was fragile but had a powerful attack so I'm hoping that the Sunken and Spore still retain those characteristics and now that they've been specialised they'd be able to be even stronger. However, about them moving, I'm kinda against it. Sure, having things crawling and squirming everywhere is very Zerg-like, but it's not for their buildings. It's the Zerg units that are supposed to be all creepy and squirmy, etc, not their buildings. All in all, I'm not too thrilled about this moving static defences idea. If it absolutely has to be done, I'd like it to be for Protoss, but not in the way that they used to have it. I'd prefer that they're warped to their new location like the Stalker's Blink. Obviously it wouldn't take too long, just a couple of seconds, but it beats having them move around everywhere on their own.
There are still too many unanswered questions about the new Sunken and pore Colonies though. Do they still generate Creep? Now that they can Uproot as well, couldn't they just keep on advancing the front line? If so, is there a need for the Overlord's Creep deploying ability? Can they attack while Uprooted? If so, aren't they basically just another unit?

 

Please continue this discussion.
Due to these changes I need several moe responses or I might have to dissapoint Jon

 

Feel free to add the posts from my Phase Cannon thread to your summary as they are relevant :]
Also you might want to poke around in the Sunkun thread in the Zerg section.

 

Ill be sure to do that.

Its just easier to parse if its in QA format