Defending against double rush in 2v2.

I find it nearly impossible.

I play with a partner who usually goes Terran, playing Zerg myself. I am almost always (about 90% of the time) rushed from both teams. He can send out backup, but by the time his marines get there it's already game over for me, the Zeals/Roaches/Marines have already done their job.

We have thought about having him just pool his army near my base, because playing TZ I am always the target to get taken out first, and just have him come in behind them. I usually send zerglings out to the Xel'Naga towers to have time to prepare, which should also allow my partner to position his army opposite theirs.

Anyways, general tactics for defending two people rushing you in 2v2? It's pretty ridiculous, and it makes a lot of 2v2 games a coin flip.

 

Rush them?

 

Amazing idea.

Turn 2v2 into a game of who can blow each others buildings up first.

I am not trying to do that. I just hope 2v2 doesn't turn into that, but the current way it's going it will.

If you defend the first wave, there is already a second wave on the way, and you end up in perpetual defense.

If you over commit to defending they end up with the advantage on tech.

The only way to win, at least as I see it, is to either do some crazy scout micro and keep it in their base to see if they are going to rush, or just try to rush them first.

 

If you're talking about the super early rush... As in:

Protoss: Building a pylon and 2 gateways at 10/10 supply right ouside opponent's base
Terran: Building barracks right outside opponent base at 8/10 supply
Zerg: spawning pool at 8/10 supply

These rushes are nearly impossible to defend. Honestly, I believe Blizzard needs to do something to fix them. I've abused them for fun in the past, and it's almost always an easy win (platinum league). I've also fallen victim to it a number of times as well. Some players build their gateways/barracks/pool early as a normal part of their build, using a scout to determine whether they're really going to build units that early.

I don't. I just feel like it's a game imbalance that needs to be addressed. Some maps are worse than others.

 

Yeah, I have no problem if they go for harassment pretty early, but it is like you said, a super early rush that is nearly impossible to defend against. By the time you notice it and can ask for help, they already have done some terrible terrible damage.

 

You're horrific, really really bad. There is no game imbalance, how are you not seeing these rushes coming? This is going to sound really mean, but you're just not very good at the game. You should be scouting constantly. Watch some replays.

I've got one for you actually where just what you say happens. And I win. Note in the beginning how my partner and I are both looking all over to find the rush we know is coming because we scouted their base and saw that they were doing it.

In a 1s game I've not ONCE died to any kind of pylon rush, or rax rush, or whatever. I dont think anyone above silver does. And if you are above silver, you're probably misplaced.

http://www.mediafire.com/?4n3ennmdnry

 

Ragels, since you're just asking for help and not insisting the game is broken I'll give some advice. Your partner and you need to scout around the 10 or 11 supply mark. This will easily show a rush. If there is one, both of you crush it immediately. It will take hardly any units. If for some reason you can't find it, hit whichever one is doing the rush, you'll know by the structures they have. He'll have to come back, and you can prob kill him anyways. Really though, you should be able to find the rush.

Now, holding the T mid map is not a great idea. Instead you should have sight of the map via scouting, then move if you see them move.

Now, your'e zerg, so there's an even easier way to handle this. Tech however youre going to, I have no idea how you decide with zero scouts but, do whatever you do. But send 6 lings early to whoever is closest to you if it's not a terran. Then harass his workers, try and get a few drones, and that is your scout. You may be able to inflict decent damage if you've got good micro, and get your lings out. Make sure you're still macroing through this or its self defeating.

 

Dustin Browder has stated that Terran has lower winning percent then both Zerg and Protoss in 1-1 and even worse at 2-2 since "Terran lacks some the mobilety to come and rescue their allie". They thought that part of the 2-2 problem was map design, so future 2-2 maps will be fortress maps when allies are closer to each other. As long as your partner plays Terran only play Fortress map and pray for patching fixes!

 

This isn't even a starcraft 2 question this is basic RTS strategy - as is double rushing 1 guy early. You are on the right track with him pooling his army near you if you are constantly hit first - you know that you are the target use that knowledge to your advantage. There may be games where this backfires and they steamroll your ally, but as you said 90%? thats plenty of games to abuse your knowledge. Your ally should be immediately sending all his units to defend you early if this is a constant problem in your team games. Scouting is key, knowing where they are going is a huge help in team games because you can counter the doubles that way. Even if say he sends his units to you and they decide to double him instead, with proper scouting you can both just march over and crush it. If you feel you have superiority in tech/army size, ignore the double and immediately crush their strongest player, while the player getting doubled tries to exp or stall them at his base. You dissed this strategy but it can work and often does - especially if your team has the superior army. You will be surprised how often players will back off a double to try to save their base - defense through offense.

 

Yeah, after playing a lot more games we usually just have my partner rally his army in between my base and his. It allows him to still defend his base if they attack him, which rarely happens, and sandwich any attack on me.

I was scouting, but they weren't actually putting it in my base. It was often very off the beaten path, yet still close enough to pull off a rush. The problem with not being able to tell if it was a rush was with them not building the buildings in their base. I would see a normal setup in the base for the most part.

 

I've seen streams from people in gold and platinum lose to these rushes, though its usually due to late scouting. If they're doing the rush correctly, the units should already be in production by the time your 11 supply scout gets to their base, meaning they'll have the upper hand against you.

However, all the games i saw of this were before the patches increasing warp gate tech speed, etc.

 

Ok, first of all, the scout should be one of your workers from the start of the game. If you scout when they have their pylons/gateways building it's too late to respond. Second Bragesjo said that Terran had a lower winning %. Actually all teams have 50% win to loss and the general consensus is that Terran is overpowered, zerg is underpowered, and protoss are perfectly balanced/at the level where they should all be. Terran shouldn't have trouble fighting this type of rush. Wall off your ramp with supply depots, bunkers, and depending on the size you want 1 or 2 barracks with tech labs. Protoss can counter any early rush besides reapers, and if you scouted, you will have a stalker before he kills 5 probes and then reapers are useless. Lastly, learn the early counters.

Zerglings hate walls.
Zealots are impossible to NOT beat with marauders.
Marines hate getting trapped in a choke.
Roaches fall to stalkers AND marauders.
Stalkers can't deal with AOE.
Marauders can't deal with air.

None of those are impossible to get by the time the enemy is in your base. 1 Void ray is cause for pure marauders to run. The issue with terran is that they can do bull**** like MMM early on and beat T3 units with ease, and mechhing terran is literally unstoppable lategame except by another mechhing terran. Basically, Zerg wants an under 10 victory, protoss never wants to go past 25 minutes or under 10, and terran can lock a game up if it goes past 25. That's really the design of each race. If you can take a team out of their comfort zone, you can secure a win.

Edit: That's not to say that a team can't win outside of their preferred time slot, they just aren't as good at it.

These tactics are just the accepted rush tactics. They work everywhere. PLATINUM 1V1 BABY!

 

That's why I stopped playing 2v2. "Rushcraft" is just pointless.

 

- scout better (been said already)

- vote down the maps with large gaps between bases (lol)

- have terran pool his units at your base. he could even throw up a bunker at the ramp to your base and salvage it later. Have him keep 1-2 Marines in his base behind his wall and that should give both of you plenty of time to stall while your units react should they opt for his base instead.

- have your ally gift you some resources at the 5 minute mark so you can progress a little faster.

- If they Proxy, your Terran buddy should be able to squirt out a fast Reaper or two. A single Reaper will ruin a proxy if he is any good with micro.

 

Ok, so your issue is your having trouble defending against a 2v2 double rush, and your zerg, it looks like to me the talking about pooling the army more towards your base would be the advatagous thing to do, as for this response about just putting you guys into a defensive hole. The way to get out of that defensive hole is to ninja into his economy.
You are playing with a Terran Teammate so I could just make 2-4 Reapers, upgrade there speed and you will be able to cut there economy down easily with well done microing while keeping a large amount of ur force in your area to defend. Soon as his mineral line is hit the waves will slow and you can push back, even if u jump in his base and kill 3 probes/drones/scv before units get over, just run out his base and come back in in 15 seconds from the other side. with the speed boost reapers are one the fastest units in the game. (btw 4 reapers = only 200minerals200gas)**cheap**(tech 50/50)

 

Get reapers, and either send them to one the opponents base to completely wreck his economy, or send it to your allies base to defend against zealot or zergling rushes.

 

Your contradicting yourself a bit, since the kind of rush the person you are responding too was talking about would in no way include roaches (way too early), which was one of the units you listed in your OP.

Anyway, the key to surviving double team attacks early on as zerg is proper spine crawler placement and evasive micro on your zerglings.

The spine crawler should be placed so units have to go deeper into your base to reach it, and with buildings placed around it (pool/hatchery) so as to minimize its exposed attackable surface area. That will prevent melee units from surrounding and quickly dispatching it.

If necessary you can also take drones off and have them hold position in the "alleys" you've created that lead to the spine crawler. That will make it even more difficult on the opponent, since left to its own devices the AI will ignore the low priority threat drone and focus on finding a way around to the sunken, wasting a lot of time. Even if the opponent micros his units to attack and kill the drones in the way, this buys you some time and free damage on the attackers.

Zerglings and Queens should be micro'd to do a hit and run tactic. Have the Queen whale on units at range, and when they go to attack her just run her around....on creep nothing is going to catch and kill your Queen that early unless your micro is bad. Likewise, send zerglings in to attack units when they try to go for the queen and/or spine crawler, then have them fall back when attacked....preferrably anticipating the opponent doing this and pulling them back even before they are actually attacked. Meanwhile your spine crawler is having a field day all this time. If they do manage to get the spine crawler low use a transfusion to heal it.

If defending a slightly later rush you will want to have banelings (extremely good for defending against early attack/rushes with tier 1 units) and perhaps multiple Queens (at least 2).

 

"Nearly impossible to defend''? Lol. I play as Z with a P in 2v2, and we play against a lot of people who do these super quick rushes. We call those type of games free wins. If you're playing Z take advantage of how pro Spine Crawlers are. Get a good amount of drones and don't do any serious teching. Keep it strictly lings aslong as you're being rushed by T1 and your opponents are more worried about getting units to your base instead of teching to bigger things. If you have 3-5 spine crawlers around your base you will be more than fine. Get speedlings and preferably Attack +1 for your lings and you can easily defend a 2v1 rush aslong as you micro properly and buy your teammate time. I would love to show you the replay of one of our games but i'm not sure how to post it.

 

I WILL GIVE YOU THE ANSWER TO ALL YOUR PROBLEMS!

speed zerglings + banelings = rapes ALL 1st tier units meaning all rushes
your opener is:
get your gas at 10 and pool at 10
overlord
drones till 16 then overlord
get your speed upgrade as soon as you get 100 gas
start pumping out lings
baneling nest
make a lot of banelings with some speed-lings (ask your teammate to send you some of his gas)

if they haven't rushed you, use your army to attack them, you should be able to take them out.

tell your noobie terran friend to macro up, because a Marine Marauder can take out 2 players who have spent their money on a rush.

 

Small note: if you think you're going to be rushed get the baneling nest started before your speedling upgrade. It's far more important, and you will never have the speedling upgrade done before any true 'rush', but you DO have a good chance of getting a few banelings made before it comes.

If you aren't worried about a rush get that speedling upgrade cooking first. Banelings can be made in the field, and the sooner that speedling upgrade is done the sooner you can push offensively.