Critical Mass: why the Carrier does not work

note:yes, this is a crosspost (so sue me)

A critical mass unit is a unit the is useless alone but extremely powerful when in large numbers.

Critical mass units generally relies on the following properties:
1. Long range
2. Stackable (air or burrow stack)
3. Splash
4. Heal (especially denied one shot kills and concentrated fire)
5. Low damage, high ROF (making survival necessary for damage output)

The carrier combines 1,2,4,5 and makes it THE critical mass unit of Starcraft/BW. There is no other unit other than the carrier where you can just mass up 24 of them with nothing else and destroy a Terran player.

The reason for this is the interceptor mechanic. The interceptor fully heals itself after a few runs at a target, so in effect an stack of Carriers interceptors represents an hard to focus fire on, roach healing-rate muta army that is also resistant to storm! There is no massing like massing carriers Unlike other critical mass units (tanks, vessels, lurker, muta), the Carrier is a generalist and super mobile thus has only little need for support. If it were not for the near impossibility to tech jump to carriers in pvp and the special 1hit property of scouge and dark archon, carriers would be the one and only massed unit by protoss end game.

None of the proposals for carrier modification have removed this property of needing to mass. However this property makes Carriers an "all or nothing" unit where critical mass is more important than mixed synergy. It is a unit that need to be either massed or ignored and as a result very problematic in balance or role. There is no role for the carrier in a mixed army because the only role of the carrier is to be massed....

I think the key to fixing the carrier is to finally remove this "mass or die" necessarity for the carrier. This means a serious overhaul for the intercepter mechanic, either from non-healing intercepters or even a complete role reversal of carriers into support/disruption rather than main combat.

 

For me, Carriers are just meant to support other units. It can be used to to take out defensive structures. However it is an expensive unit and needs some time for it to prepare its interceptor. So there will be quite a moment when ur Carriers are defenceless.

The interceptor mechanic for me is nothing great. Only those defensive structures will attack the interceptors while smart players will know how to hit the Carrier. So when it comes to healing, I dun think it is true.

Against terran player, Carriers will be quite annoying. However even mass carriers will still be easly defeated by Terrans becoz cloaking Wraiths and Goliaths with range upgrade can significantly damage Carriers. Ghosts with lockdown and Battlecruiser's Yamato Cannon can also cripple the Carrier fleets. Not to mention that b4 u can even mass carriers, the Terrans might have already rush u to death.

Massable Carriers r nice in island maps. So may I know wat is the point of this thread? Improve carriers so that they r useful in all situations???

 

From the countless of reports out there, Carriers are seriously underpowered at the moment. They cost 400 gas and are are considered to be too weak for its cost. So as of now, I don't think we need to buff the Carriers.

 

You sound like someone who plays Fastest Possible a lot. On a map with normal resources, 1-3 Carriers with a couple of scouts or some Disruption webs can completely wipe out outposts, and even main bases if with a well placed Recall amongst the mayhem.

I'm not sure how taking away the Interceptor's auto-repair would fix things. From what I understand your entire post was about the Carrier being too situational and needing to be improved, but then at the end you want to nerf it? Clarification, if you please.

 

Perhaps if the carrier auto-produced the interceptors but did no longer auto-repaired them would be a better solution. It would make the carrier cheaper, making it more viable to produce, but it would make it hard to just roll through defenses as you would be losing interceptors, and thereby fire power, as you went. It would make the carrier good for an initial push, to take out heavy defenses, since losing the interceptors wouldn't cause you lasting harm. Then you could send in the rest of your force to take out the rest of the base, while your carriers sit back and rebuild interceptors. It keep a mass of carriers from being effective, while giving it a role in mixed unit tactics. Just my two cents.

 

I don't know why you feel you need to summarize the uses, pros, and cons of the carrier but most people here have at least played the first SC so we know how the carrier works. However if you feel you have something to contribute to the current build of the carrier then be my guest (however I believe we already have a topic for that) other wise can some one close this.

 

Ok...... Carriers needing to become stronger? I think not

But the fact that Carriers are really downplayed is a SURPRISE! Every protoss players love Carriers.... well, that might be assumption made by me.... but still, Carriers still should have that feeling of proud, Protoss flag ship... not a heap of metal that shoots out useless units into suicidal mission.

But I can see how you want Carrier massing to stop. It does.... indeed.... get annoying in some parts. And.... even in normal map.... 4 carriers massed is probably enough to destroy most of base defenses.... and unlike most air units in SC1, Carriers can be easily obtained in earlier time... although that might mean that you have to sacrifice your base in process...

But I can tell why Carrier is trouble for any race besides Protoss in SC2, with the whole absence of Wrath and such.... but actually, Vikings will kill Carriers just as well in SC2 as Wraths and Ghost could, with atk bonus vs heavy units. And with zerg.... well, massing Hydras always trims down Carriers..... along with scourges, if anyone bothers to go that far to being anti-carrier.

So here's my opinion. How about making Carriers start with no Interceptors, and make interceptors more expensive and limit to.... i don't know...... 10? The reason that people mass Carriers is because of its limit on Interceptors. By making Carrier's interceptors more expensive and make Carriers have better storages, Carriers won't be massed as much, and more unit combination will take place. Although that won't change Carrier maniacs from massing Carriers..... so I can understand why Blizzard is trying to reduce Carrier's hp..... to make it useless without support....

 

I agree with the fact that Carriers can be stacked and can erradicate anything especially when they're coupled with disrupters...

So what can you do about it this month ?

PS: i hope they keep the sound "Carriers have arrived" same voice/tone...

 

Well, as long as they have escorts, I don't mind..... 4 interceptors or 8 probably wont' make much difference with escorts... maybe even positive difference if used correctly.....

 

I just wish Carriers had special abilities like transporting units as well as the interceptors along the ride.Carriers r strong when there r atleast 5-10/more than that of them taking down any enemies base.They need some observers with them along the ride though.

 

very true...... but what i would like more than ANYTHING is the hardened shield from ground attacks like what Tempest had..... that will make Carriers INVINCIBLE against Terran Thor..... and it can destroy almost anything without getting TOO much damage........ since carriers no longer have 8 interceptors, why not hardened shield?

 

Escorts were confirmed removed at WWI 2008.

 

dammit! so carriers only carry 4 interceptors and nothing else????

DAMMIT!

 

no, they have 8 interceptors now, Blizzard played around with the escorts idea and after a while didnt like it so they went back.

 

that's a relief...... if they only have 4 interceptors, that might've been extremely bad.....

so..... any chance that carriers will have hardened shield towards ground attacks like Tempest?

 

there is little to no chance that they will have that harden shield, they will only have that shield if someone else made them that way.

 

Aww.... that sounds really good though.... well, life sucks..... better suck it up and get it over with...

 

must...mod...tempests...

hmm, let see how do i counter massed carriers...

plague, devourer, scourge...
lockdown, EMP...
mind control...

 

going of scarmory's stats of 5x2 per interceptor i would of thought that carriers would
rip through enemy units, but it does seem rather boring considering all the
upgrades the bc is getting and the heavy gas restrictions. I'm thinking the people are gonna
end up liking the tempest in single player alot more and maybe it'll replace the carrier in
the protoss block.

 

The carriers massing is the ultimate nub strategy in Starcraft in my opinion: most of the defense turrets can't hit the interceptors properly, because of the difference between the speed of the shots and the speed of the interceptors, groups of interceptors simply prevent players from selecting any unit on the battlefield, beyond having saved them in Ctrl+ groups before the battle, and yes this "I am hit, I go home and come back instantly regenerated, for free!" feature definitely make carriers the unstoppable cheesiest ever attack. Add to that to kill any possibility to deal with that unit that the interceptors are way too tough (twice the HP of a marine, for 33% of his cost and with the same damage, wtf Blizzard???!) and too quick, and that's it: any protoss players just have to survive 20-25 minutes, get some expansions bases, and mass like a nub. Attach some observers to your fleet and just send it attack-move to the other corner of the map. And just wait. You don't even need to monitor them. gg skilz kbye no rethx.

If the interceptor become free in Starcraft 2, I just disconnect from the game everytime I see an enemy fleet beacon. Personnally I can hardly play the carrier so much cheesy is this unit: don't get me wrong, the concept is good, but the way they currently are, it's just too easy to play them, way too easy... And I really pity the players who take pride winning with that. If you can't cast psychic storms or quickly focus yamato guns on the carriers, bye bye baby, even the valkyries, that were supposed to be able to deal with this kind of enemy, are no match, and just display a funky and useful firework of missiles before to explode.

The interceptors have to be weaker: less hp and less damage, and definitely shouldn't "auto-heal" at all when back to the carrier. On another hand, the interceptors should be totally independant from their carrier, I mean when you move the carrier, just move it, the interceptors should be able to attack and keep attacking by themselves, without stupidly coming back to their carriers while you just turn around your target, and still be on range. This way, carriers should be able to defend themselves while retreating, which they definitely should be able to do to me. And a late-game upgrade about the maximal range the interceptors can attack away from their carriers could be nice too.