Counterting MMM and MMM (2v2)

So, my friend and I are mid to high platinum 2v2 players. I play zerg and he plays protoss. Recently, we played against a TT match-up and got completely rofl-stomped when they BOTH walled in, massed up a bunch of marines and marauders (eventually to medivacs as well) and proceeded to wipe us out after a few attacks.

However, we scouted in the beginning and saw that both of them were putting down 2 racks each, so we were like "Okay, they're gonna MMM". So I was all like "Okay, Ima grab some infestors and fungal growth that ****" and he was all like "Ima grab some High Templars and psi storm that ****". Thing is, they attacked before we could really tech up that far; I had managed to get a couple infestors with barely enough energy to throw down some fungal growth and he didn't quite have psi storm researched yet. Because of this, we only had zealots and zerglings (he had a few stalkers), and I think I was trying to get some roaches as well to hold back the attack, and we barely managed to hold on (fungal growth helped A LOT along with some static defenses). However, we both suffered heavy economic damage, and when the next wave came, one of them had a crap load of siege tanks which proceeded to wipe us out.

So basically, what could we have done to change the outcome of the match? I don't have a replay I can show, but what I can tell you is that neither of us expanded (I tried, but quickly cancelled when my drone at a xel'naga watchtower saw their army coming). I just really don't like the fact that a tier 1 and 1.5 strategy (with some quick medivacs) can steam-roll zerg and protoss until they get tier 2 tech with upgrades...kind of frustrating :S

 

Tough situation. I should know. I've done it to people before. Double marine and marauder rush is what I call the Terran Infantry Steamroller!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TONqGVrksgM

Only effective strategy is to counter with ridiculous micro tactics. You need a super well protected collossus and roach strategies that are ridiculously sneaky.

Numbers you will always lose because that's what the steamroller is all about.

So build two or three advanced units with lines of more primitive units to defend, and try your best to outmicro a macro strategy while building an army of your own.

That's really your only chance in hell of winning.

 

Soooo....basically you're saying this strategy is OP and imba? Cause getting those high-tech units before they attack with their first wave is nigh on impossible :S

 

How long do you have before they come out of their "wall"?

I like 2x hatch baneling busting against terran wall-ins (ok, I like that vs everyone lol). If your partner can have some sentries ready he can also force field the choke after you flood in to keep out your opponent's teammate while you ravage his economy/base beyond repair. This will punish them for hiding behind a wall and not coming out to 'play'.

In either case you probably shouldn't both be teching hard to support 'casters'. In fact, I wouldn't tech hard to support units at all. If you're going to risk an early tech make it to a unit/strategy that has the potential to take someone out on its own. That's why you typically see techs to air like mutas/voidrays/etc. They can easily be effective without 'meat' to support them, nor do they have to wait for or rely on energy.

edit: btw, speedlings/banelings will beat marines/marauders provided the numbers are fair and you engage properly (preferrably an open or semi-open area). So if for whatever reason they do advance before you are ready to attack them, you should be able to ambush them and take them out with your partner's help, at least while we are only talking mmm vs speedling/baneling/whatever your partner has.

 

This is good stuff lol, thanks! It defs WOULD be a lot easier to get banelings and sentries rather than collossi and infestors...I'd still need lair tech for the baneling speed upgrade though, since MMM is all ranged >_<

Dunno why I didn't think of this before :S

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMdDmbpmIRw
*coughterranOPcough*

 

I think that the baneling suggestion from khayman is very nice.It would deal with most mass infantry attacks.

I could add some other unorthodox tactics.

The protoss player could get some early air(stargate is available very easily),and get them around the enemy bases hitting here and there,so you can buy time to tech up/build units and counter them more properly.

Another tactic(i don't know how much it can work,I am not a zerg player) is to go for nydus network.I have seen it work miracles in some games.If you manage to hit them in economy they will go down.

 

Give it a shot. You don't necessarily need the speed upgrade on the banelings (although it is very nice). As long as you give them some "AI fire" cover (i.e. some zerglings/zealots/something running just slightly in front of them as you come into the opponent's range) they should have plenty of time to make it into exploding range. Keep in mind you can explode them manually too, to do damage before getting into maximum AoE range, although I usually let them make contact. It's something of a positioning balance. You can't let the meat shields get too far ahead of the banelings, or they will be dead before the banelings get there; you can't have too many meat shields in the way of the banelings or they will get stuck on pathing; you can't have the meat shields too far behind the banelings are the banelings will die because they have nothing absorbing the damage for them.

As for getting across the map, I usually morph my offensive banelings somewhere near the OPPONENT'S base. Speedlings are very fast, and the window of vulnerablility for the morph is very small. So long as you're not trying to literally morph them within sight and range of their choke you should be ok.

Again, this isn't to knock the speed upgrade. In fact, without it some units can 'kite' banelings, but early on in the game they perform pretty well without it.

Oh, and just in case you're new to banelings, they can also be detonated while burrowed. But that's a separate thread/topic.

 

either you harass early, so they struggle to get their MMM up

or you get sentries with 1-2 colossi and stalkers roaches and hydras. Use forcefields to cut their army in half and kill the half that is closest to you.

you should have some mutalisk ready, once they have pushed out, send your mutalisk to their workers.

 

as a zerg playing with a toss, I almost always go straight roach, and he goes zeolots. If I scout double reaper, I go double queen and try to survive until the roaches come out. The P usually has issues with the double reapers. Otherwise this is a simple formula. Baneling + roach will do most the damage and then follow up with the toss forces to clean-up. Watch for banshees or tanks because I've found that's typically the next response.

KHaYMaN: I disagree that they should bust the wall. I'd rather fight in open field when they come out into the field and exploit the lack of forces in their base. If they're walling in, then they aren't expanding, so I have map control. The second they look to advance, I'm confident enough in my baneling and roach strat that I don't need to worry about defending an expansion. I totally agree that they both shouldn't be teching to spell casters, that is just common sense in a 2v2.

The only real concern I'd have is if they gained mobility from the medivacs. If they're turtling, then you need to scout. if you see they are getting starports, you need to go mutas asap. Medivac drops can do just too much damage while your banelings are trying to get there. Get the mutas, win in the air, keep them in their base and make it a macro battle.

 

IMHO it really comes down to micro. I'm a MMM junkie myself (maybe it's lame, but it works). However I got absolutely pwned today by a Zerg player with less of an army. He had a group of banelings, a group of zerglings, and a group of roaches. He used his roaches as his front line, then he flanked me from one side with his banelings, and the other side with zerglings.

I pulled my focus onto the banelings to avoid the explosion, but then the zerglings had a free charge up to my troops.

It seems like the Zerg players who beat me have a diverse army, and they "throw punches in bunches"...meaning they hit me from every angle in rapid sequence.

Hope that helps...

 

i too cant find an effective strat against double team MMM
kinda like attacking a bee hive i think
its either your a bear and you rip it to shreds, or your a naked human with ridiculously good hand-eye coordination with sum help from bug spray
for protoss mass chargelots always help, terran shud just get a couple of tanks, zerg should pray too god

 

Lol. So I'm in Diamond 2v2 as Zerg, my partner plays random/Terran. The games we KNOW we have the highest chance of losing is against TT. Which we for some odd reason seem to get a lot (I wonder why) Even when It's against random/random. FOR SOME UNGODLY REDICULOUS REASON they random TT. Anyways, People like to say this and that about what counters MMM. When does kill an opponents entire army not require decent microing?? Anyways my point is, MMM is by far the hardest thing to counter for being the easiest thing to make and mass. (broken anyone?) Banelings, Roaches, Speedlings, for me as I play Zerg. Even with stellar micro/flanking, When a T has a blob of marines and marauders and pops stims, And BARELY micros away from my banelings, it typically doesn't matter how well I can micro.

Basically I've read a TON of "ways" to counter MMM, but as far as I can tell all you really can do is tech Speedlings, Roach Speed, and Bane Speed, and have more of an army to throw against his mass and hope for the best. This actually sounds more like a 1v1 Z vs T type of thing, and what I SHOULD be talking about is how to counter MMMMMMM Repeating M's x infinity from a TT vs ZT point of view. But that many marines and marauders packed that close + stim is just.. stupid..

I remember I played one game last night had a TONNNN of Roaches / Lings / Banes and had my teammate attack with his MMM so I could flank and micro my stuff into both of my enemies MMM blob, and the dude had ONE thor and I pretty much lost all my banes to it from sloppy micro.

Wait while I was typing this wall of txt I realized the proper counter for MMM. It's MMMM. Mass More Marines / Marauders LULZ

 

According to liquipedia, lings/banelings are a hard counter, perticularly if t mismicros and gets hit by the banelings. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Barracks_(vs._Zerg). Against toss, idk.

 

Zerg players will need to wait for Heart of the Swarm expansion to get some lurkers and own thoses MMM.

There was the exact same problem with Starcraft 1 (not broodwar)...

 

It sounds like you need to be more patient and not try to completely wipe each other out right there and then. If they stim and move away, there's no need to engage yet. Banelings can be used defensively and in my opinion are most effective that way. Try thinking about microing for the space advantage, as opposed to microing to just attack. What I mean is, try to lure him into areas, or force him into others, depending on your partners positioning.

Just a thought