Concern: Protoss early tier armored counter

From what i've read, the Protoss Stalker no longer does additional damage against Armored units. Instead, they do 11 Normal damage, much like the Marine. Of course, this would be a problem since the Protoss faction does not have adequate early game Armored counter. So if the opponent manages to produce an army of roaches (which is possible since it only costs 100 Minerals Vs Stalker's 125M and 50Gas), the protoss player will potentially be overwhelmed on a stalker VS Roach scenario. Now, i understand the roach's durability was improved to 160Hp, making it the toughest early tier unit while the Stalker now has 80 Shields, this still does not allow the protoss player to gain access to early advantage against armored units, until Immortals can be produced during mid game.

 

Roaches are higher-tier than stalkers now, deal low damage to stalkers (only 8 to 11, depending on source) with shorter range, and Blink gives stalkers a huge edge.

The roach's primary advantage, regeneration, only works when roaches burrow, which probably stops them from attacking.

Hydralisks (which are tier 1.5, same as stalkers) are a much better bet. Hydralisks have the same range, which should make Blink dancing a bit less effective against them.

 

Remember that a unit doesn't have to deal a bonus against Armoured units to be able to counter them. In reality, straight base damage would give the unit the best edge in the game, as bonuses against Armoured units are not always so much dealing greater damage to Armoured units as it is dealing lesser damage to Light units. For example, if the Stalker used to have six base damage, with a bonus six to Armoured units, I'm sure people wouldn't be concerned about their Anti-Armoured role, but with twelve base damage and no bonus, people would be. Regardless, everything's going to end up being balanced, and Blizzard's hardly going to release the game with Protoss having such an obvious weakness early on. Blizzard's just gotta toy with the stats and see what works, and chances are, if that's the only change we know of, it hasn't been made in isolation. Our entire knowledge of any unit probably comes from a number of different stages of development, so it's hard for us to make a judgement about anything so stat-oriented.

Overall, the bonus against Armoured units with Stalkers seems fairly useless early on, with Roaches being pushed back and nerfed when above ground, and Marauders being the only other early tier, Armoured threat. Especially seeing as Marauders have been designed to be stronger than Stalkers, it doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose at that stage.

 

On a side note: it's ridiculous that a human guy with grenades is stronger then a Stalker. Maybe it fits in the game as a balance thing, but it just doesn't feel right. I mean, the Stalker has lasers. Come on. How's a grenade launcher a match for that? Shockwaves should be stopped by shields anyway, but I guess that would make the Marauder useless against Protoss.

As for the topic: Stalkers can just fire a few shots and blink away. Repeat untill Roaches are dead. Or block a choack point with Zealots, and put a few Stalkers behind it. Blink past the chockepoint if they burrow.

 

I'd say the Marauder is doing quite an "insane damage" right now against armored (it used to do 20, now it's 24!!)... and the stalker doing a flat 11 instead of 10+4 seems worse to me (a flat 12 might have been better).
Otherwise I think the roach is fine, as it no longer regenerates while fighting (need to burrow). I still think that when stacked, stalkers have the upper hand.

 

@ Aurora. Assuming the 'OMG LAZORZ!' argument isn't the best or most refined line of argument. Lasers or explosives, it all comes does to the quality of the weapons. For example, Interceptors have practically the same attack, albeit only dealing half the damage. Perhaps they should be dealing more than Marauders too?

Marauders and Stalkers are completely different. Marauders are designed to be large, powerful mech-suits, built solely for the purpose of enabling infantry to be equipped with as much firepower as possible. Stalkers are smaller, more stealth-oriented units, with most of their weapon function being compromised to cater for their ability to Blink.

While it still obviously comes down to balance, my money's on the Marauder.

 

Maybe I should've been more clear:
Protoss = ancient high tech civilization
Terran = "I went to Ghost academy and all I got was this lousy Sniper."

But seriously, lasers are supposed to go clean through armour. It's basically a freaking advanced blowtorch. That should be able to penetrate armor without a problen, even though it might be dealing low damage. That's why I find it hard to understand why the armour damage bonus got axed. It makes no sense lore-wise.

Lastly, the grenades are designed to hold troops back and damage armour. The Stalker is supposed to do damage, with no side affects. See the problem? If it was "OMG LAZORZ!" I would've found it more realistic.

Blizzard needs the Bioware/Nintendo method. Design a great concept, a decent story, good lore and characters, THEN make the game. Blizzard started focussing on balance to hard and to early. That causes seriously messed up lore/gameplay mechanics. Just look at the Queen, Thor, Mothership, Soul Hunter, Nomad, etc. Half of SC2's units started out as fantastic concepts. Now they're all nerfed/axed to the point that their background story doesn't fit the strength anymore.

Yes, I'm a lore *****.
Still, my arguments are good.

 

Agreed, I am not very comfortable with the idea of a Terran "Super Infantry Unit" either. It completely unbalances the game (think of a 1v1 Mrauder vs unsieged tank, Marauder vs Colossus, or Stalker...). Not only does it deal Massive damage (LOL "Terrible terrible damage" ) but it also has a concussion effect. See the problem?
For obvious balance reasons, you can't have High HP, High Armor, high Damage output and lower costs!

Stalker: 125 minerals, 50 gas - has blink
Marauder: 100 minerals, 25 gas - has concussion grenade

Hummmm....

To me, the Marauder needs to get toned down a bit (or to get increased price)

I think Blizz has been too overzealous on this unit.

 

And if I remember correctly, you can produce 2 Marauders at the same time with the Reactor upgrade. Not sure where the Stalker is produced currently, but perhaps that warping them in can compensate for the Reactor. (And the Zerg Hatchery with its incredible morph speed, especially when aided by a Queen.)

 

Lasers aren't 'supposed' to go clean through armour, OMG LAZORZ do that. Seriously, dude, we've got laser pointers already, and there's no armour cleavage with any of that. Potential blindness, if you're a complete tool, but not death. And again, if the majority of the Stalker's function has been replaced for the sake of being lightweight, small, and able to Blink, bye-bye high powered lasers.

Yes, the Marauder is supposed to hold troops back and damage armour. Funnily enough, that's what it does. Stalkers aren't supposed to deal damage with no side effects. They're supposed to be mobile, lightweight and small, they're supposed to ambush, trap and pursue vulnerable enemies, retreat, escape and regroup from large armies, explore, traverse and monitor unknown areas, climb, descend and bypass difficult terrain, and hit-and-run, not stand-and-fight. If that's not a side effect, I don't know what is, and if anything, really, its attack is a side effect of its mobility.

If Protoss were as powerful, and Terran as weak, as you were portraying them to be, they would never have ever been able to ever hold their own against them, ever. Ever. So as you can see, it's not really like that at all.

And no, gameplay needs to come before lore, stories or characters. The game needs to be balanced, and taking the approach of the whole game in terms of lore, plot, characters, gameplay or even art has no effect on balance. What it does have an effect on, however, is how enjoyable the game is, and really, only the gameplay approach will ensure a good game. If they're wanting to focus on lore, plot or characters, they should write a book. If art, they should make a movie. They're making a game, and games are there for the gameplay.

Also, no, you can only make one Marauder at once.

 

"If Protoss were as powerful, and Terran as weak, as you were portraying them to be, they would never have ever been able to ever hold their own against them, ever. Ever. So as you can see, it's not really like that at all."

Wrong. Zergs are the weakest, unit by unit, however they hold their own against other races due to their sheer numbers. I do understand your point though.

But such a unit being less costly and more powerful in so many circumstances is not a desirable gameplay. And I'm not talking about lore.

This is just my opinion

 

I think you need to reread what I said. It doesn't concern Zerg at all.

 

If you reread what I wrote, Im talking about terrans/Protoss(Zergs were an analogy). And actually about marauders Vs Stalkers, regarding costs and efficiency in-game. That's the whole point of the discussion.

 

So you're saying that games by Bioware are imbalanced? Here, have a flameshield.

As for the whole laser thing: those pointers are just pointers. Those aren't meant to damage people or devices. There's a difference between laser pointers and weaponized lasers which use plasma, aka the "OMG LASOR". Those already exist in reality, although the range is short and the size of the device is huge. Still, it pierces a thick metal sheet in seconds. I assume that a civilazation capable of glassing entire planets at once is capable of making small but powerfull laser weapons.

Further, it was quite clear that I meant the damage output when talking about the side effects. Like a huge mech doesn't consume power. The Stalker blinks with using the void, afaik. The weapons are powered seperately, so blinking should have no effect on the damage it can do. You can still attack right before and after using blink, so it's not like the Stalker wastes weapons power on blinking. (being a lore ***** again, I know)

It's just stupid that a laser is used to deal regular damage. A laser pierces objects, it doesn't explode or bounce off of the object it hits.

 

@ alex. I wasn't talking about that, at all.

@ Aurora. My point was that lasers come in different intensities. A laser being a laser doesn't mean it's an OMG LAZOR.

In terms of the 'side' effect, while it may not be a side effect of the weapon itself, really, it's a side effect by proxy, in that the weapon would need to be smaller, and therefore weaker, for the Stalker to be able to fit whatever the means for being able to Blink and still retain its small, stealthy and mobile size.

Also, its not even an actual laser, as its path bends in the air, so so much for the lore there.

 

-_-'

A drunk laser then..
Whatever, I need to re-think this one. Your text walls aren't exactly easy to counter in a single, compact post. :/

 

@ Itza: too bad. That was the subject of the OP: the damage output of the stalker.

Oddly enough, that's what i'm talking about.

-.-

 

So you decided to directly tell me I'm wrong? This is what I said.

I said if Protoss was as powerful as Aurora was saying they were, like so;

...And the Terran were as weak as Aurora was saying they were, like so;

Then, according to lore, the Terran would never have a chance at winning when fighting the Protoss.

You've then come along and told me I'm wrong, saying Zerg is the weakest. Let me give you another example of how irrelevant that is to the conversation that was being had at the time.

It's like someone saying they think the Carrier is more powerful than the Battlecruiser, and someone else saying they think they're evenly matched, then you coming along and saying that the second person is wrong because the Zergling is the weakest unit.

Hope that helps.

 

Acually, the Terran's really wouldn't stand a chance against the Protoss in a full scale war. And the Zerg wouldn't be a match for anybody.

The Protoss fleet is almost impossible to defeat in space. Further, both the Terran and Protoss can Nuke/OMG LAZORZ a planet to shreds from space. It's just that big nukes got banned, and that Zeratul and his friends are *******. Because if they weren't, infested stuff would've been killed from space. That would make for a boring game, so the lore prevented it. I think you underestimate the importance of lore, Itza. Not saying that you arguments aren't valid, because they still are. Just try not to ignore the backstory when judging units. Some people actually care for that, instead of just playing b.net matches all the time.

As for the Ghost thing: I tried to point out that Terrans don't use what they have to its full potential, while the Protoss do. I mean, the Templar are even using the Void now. (Void Ray) The Terrans still haven't even considered removing the inhibitors from their Ghost soldiers, even while they're at war.

 

You cannot base the stats of the units on lore, not unless, lorewise, each team was perfectly balanced. It's as simple as that. Units have to be balanced for gameplay.

And no, the lore didn't prevent the original Protoss power from being used in game, the gameplay prevented it, and the lore was forced to be compromised. On top of that, the lore was the original problem with that anyway, not gameplay. It was a lore fix that was required for a lore problem, not a lore fix required for a gameplay problem. The same goes for banning Nukes and Tassadar's compassion. It's a way of solving the whole "Oh ****, we've already said they can do this, how do we get out of it?" conundrum.

Overall, lore's importance is minimal. It has to be compromised and changed to fit the gameplay. While it still might be interesting, its of next to no importance. Gameplay is of the greatest importance to games.

And again, in terms of the Stalkers, lorewise, it's a small and mobile scouting unit, and seeing as small things can't carry as big a weapon as big things can, you can't expect it to stand up to that of a Marauder, especially in one-on-one combat. Lorewise, you should be happy that a Protoss scout can even be considered as a primary fighter. That alone should be enough of a testament to their technology.